ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i am peter lavelle by any measure. the year 2022 has been transformative. the conflict in ukraine, global inflation, growing food insecurity, and the west demand that you are with this or against is dominated our attention on this addition of cross talk. we discuss some of these issues and more ah cross stocking 2022. i'm joined by my guest here in moscow gs evian bureau. he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis strap. all we also have maxine shook off. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at

moscow state institute of international relations. and in budapest, we cross the george samuel alley. he's a podcast her at the, at the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals. are gentleman cross up rules and effect, that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate george. let me go to you 1st in budapest, i suppose it's kind of an understatement on the, on the, on my part of your but what was the event to the idea, the person that transformed this year? because i think all of us would agree, maybe not on what did it the most, but it was a transfer of transformational year go ahead, george transformational year. because what happened in february was the end of the post cold war era. the end of the year of the unit polar moment in which the west got to demand that this is the way the world has to be ordered. and everybody has to jump to it. and russia shatter that equations. and

by doing that, and by withstanding everything that the west nato, the united states throughout the mother of all sanctions that they boast, the, all of the weapon systems they sent into ukraine. by doing that, russia essentially shattered that, that moment. and, and the rest of the world is looked on and i think, but it's going to be very, very difficult for the west to recover from that and to some, to restore the, the money that he had been boasting of the 1989 and we are most famous at the end of history ethic. well mac, same basically the same questionnaire. i mean, we, we had, with george bush senior talk about a new world order, which has been widely discussed. but i think in this year we do have

a new world order. it's maybe not very neat and clean and smooth, but something is emerging and i agree with george. we're leaving something in the past. maxime, your thought was as, as the 911 atrocities have concluded, the era of 990 s. and the marked perhaps the start of the end of the uniform world will be the fuller moment as they are. you know, brenda, the back of 990 s. i think that the lease here, the conflict in your has marked an ending to the era of took thousands where russia has sought to find the common denominator in relations with the west. predominantly based on this counterterrorism agenda, which has not been embraced on a number of occasions by western counterparts. so we're now definitely entering a new era. we don't know what it is, so we perhaps cannot call it in any way,

but we can call it. but what it is not that is it's been and a post post bipolar era. and the reason that there are so many emerging power in the global south, in particular, that are now very much, i wouldn't say there dictating the terms, but their policies matter so much more than they used to matter. even 10 years ago, 5 years ago tells us that this probably centric world is shaping up objectively. yeah, well, i mean, exactly a, the, the west isn't taking that very easily. okay. i think all of us can agree on that, but a gemini, you know, once you have it, you don't like to lose it. exactly. you know, for me, the, in this year, one event kind of crystallized everything that we've already said here was the destruction of the north stream pipelines. ok. and it remains a mystery for some people here. but that it, it's a metaphor and it's, it's very physical. if it's material, there was a huge breach. that is not going to be healed for a very long time. a. yes,

of course, the 2000, the 22 were it stirred into your, of the destruction of the european economy it not by russia, but by your washington and her as you are perfectly under ryan. we observed that london or washington nights not so important. it can destroy a pipelines, a wizard, and a bit of a very of fundamentally a inevitable infrastructure in the, for the continent. our europe and her name, her berlin, nor paris, dare to are even just saying it's not russia it, which will lead beer already a think, but they didn't dare say any thing on the who is guilty. so, in my opinion, the most important fact is the complete destruction of the, of the so is the complete destruction of the, of the european economy by washington. and now neither again,

berlin nor paris did say something. well, it's actually interesting. you mentioned at george, i mean, you, in a way, i think that you know what, one thing that marks the, the year that's ending is this, this amazing propaganda program are programmable of a not allowing any kind of descent on their ukraine and narrative. it's really extraordinary. a lot of people have been denied platforms. are r, t a you're on right now has been attacked. but it, what is really happened is that we keep hearing about unity, unity, unity, zalinski goes to washington unity. but you know, exactly is absolutely right. you know, paris and, and berlin will never say anything now against american hegemony, but does have to suck it up. george. yes, that's exactly right. and the arrogance that the united states displayed to war it's close allies is why the extraordinary is mentioned about the, the law stream pipelines they know perfectly well. who did it. and we know it

because of the silence, like those evidence that russia was behind it. then you know, one of the end of it, i mean when, when we just constant barking from, from everyone in europe, is that the reassignment they know perfectly well who's behind it and they keeping quiet about it. then we have the business of the european dependence on liquified natural gas from the united states. so micron comes along as a war times as much liquefied natural gas as the american. and how does that bite into ministration? react? i'm good. ok, yeah. okay, that's what you're doing, but what about your inflation reduction? i, you know, you prioritizing american industry european industry. and so the, in the americans are the americans do not care. they do not care. the whole policy

in ukraine has been driven by the united states. you know, all the way back to 2008 when the bush administration insisted on making that promise to ukraine about, eventually nato membership. the urban, no say in this, and they have to bear the costs. and, you know, as we head into the new year, we know that anything that you would be in was going to bring one, some sort of settlement in your grade. they don't have the means at all. all the insisting on the li americans will swell any agreement that they're not happy with . it will be decided on america stuff, or at least that's how washington sees it. we don't care at all what paris and berlin has to say. you know, maxine is here also marks, at least in my opinion, being historian of russian history is that this breach that we have within the european land masses of russia after 300 years is basically at least for the time being to turn it back on europe and that,

that is world historic. maxine that is true. however, i think, you know, and we're already hearing this noises that russia should've been doing this in different organizations in russia, had just has to leave your brain and that things will be back on track. i think those who are advocating the stems to not really realize actual scope of the kind of the mental shift that has happened over the past few months in the russian society, perhaps even more than the rational leech. but the russian leaves are shifting as well. perhaps in just a slower pace, and these, you know, was trying to build links with the rest of the world with it, with the needle eastern countries for the asian countries be so big. and that is actually, you know, as happens in the past russian history. the major shifts had to happen because of some crisis. you know, it, it, usually russia slowed to react to changes on until,

you know, there is some price, a situation where it just has to do so. such was the case during world war 2, where most of the industries that carried the soviet union success were built during the, during the most, the hardest and toughest years worth, such as the case right now. and the problem is, if you know things are saddled over some time, it will be hard to, you know, return all the things that are being lost. now that, that is the case for the companies that prefer to leave russia. that is the case for the industries that have now are under going to be are changes and dramatic changes. and i think eventually it will be harder loss. and one of the programs, peter, you mentioned that, you know, the calculus is right now for the europeans to get through this winter. but the long term challenge is getting through the other and we deprived winter and this is

the normal, this is in reality and everyone will have to adapt. yeah, well exactly, before we go to the break here, i mean, you know, there's always been this question. you know, does russia need europe more than europe needs rush? well, i think that question is being answered. i mean, russia is the most sanctioned country in the world. life is fine. okay. everybody's getting a, getting through it. okay, sure. there's some annoyances, but i can't, i don't think the europeans can say the same thing as the average russian gavia before we go to the break ahead. yes, of course, the europe completely under estimate the weight of the russian economy in the european economy. because they were considering that, okay, it's on used to present under world or the world markets, but it's, so maybe it's a globally 3 percent, but it's very important for us for, for taiser it's very important for energy. it's very important for nuclear energy is her and their estimates is, is as well. and actually, the waste globally,

completely under estimated the weight of the russian economy, the power of his army. the determination not only of vladimir putin but of the origin of the russian population. and the just lay 22 under my lot, one year ago. exactly. vladimir putin. a try to give one last chance to enforce exactly. exactly. hold that thought. ready to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the year. that's about to pass, stay with arte ah needs to come to russian state total narrative. i've stayed on the no santini. d

vesman with 55 with. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. one else with will ban in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machines. the state on russia today and c, r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube with mm hm. forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by

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welcome back across stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing 2022. okay, is come back. exactly a here in moscow we, we ran into a hard break and you didn't get to finish your point. so please do now go ahead. thank you peter. yet at we're just would like to underline that. and in my opinion, it would when it will remain in history that one year ago, exactly one year ago, ready, me put in, tried to give a last chance to our friends, to were germany and even to natal to implement dirt minced agreement, which would have been implemented in foster on december 2015. so we, so our long vladimir putin wakes, viola started the suspicious apparition. so actually, and paradoxically, what we observe is that putting gave a last chance to nato. and unfortunately,

we so, and no, we exactly know that a dimension agreement where never assigned to be implemented. as exactly said, natalie. mister brush uncle. but her uncle america. and i'm sure that it's the same for, for paris that all this agreements with don't, to a 2 am not to be implemented at that's given node of a very important question. exactly. was said, a young man, the dmitri method, if 2 days ago, that there is nobody which, with which we can sign and about what we are going to science or the problem in 2023. it's what can i, what kind of agreement can be reached? well, you know, is nobody or we can trust. yes. i that is the point here. george. no agreement incapable. that's. i think that is a brilliant russian word. it's actually getting greater currency. ok. i came across a maybe like 2 years ago, but george and i kind of a,

an extension of what exactly it was saying. you know, when i look at the, the propaganda coverage of this conflict, mister zalinski goes to washington and all this. but george, russia, security demands have not changed. and this is something that, you know, were responsible, state craft and all these people, they did, they don't want to recognize as they're in their own bubble here. and i want to address the same question to maxime here, but you know, we're ending the year basically the same place. ok. if you're not going to listen to our demands, why should we listen to yours? george? yeah, exactly right. because the security demands, they go all the way back to the 1990 s to the days when the west favorite boy boris yeltsin was in power in moscow. and they continue to raise the issue of nato expansion. and they complain and they complained. and they complain with the, you know, they can basic and why do they, you know, they can face because it was nothing russia could do about it as it were russia.

i'm do anything the right you know, well, they may complain about, well, the baltic states are being incorporated into nato. so what are you going to do about that? because russia couldn't do anything about it as a why, when do you grain issue came up, the west response was exactly the same. what are you going to do about it? and, and then what was in russia gave the answer. but this is really where it comes to the west is only for best to talk to russia about the issues that interest the united states. the united states is interested in the issue of strategic nuclear weapons because their russia has built up an edge and the united states is anxious to overcome that edge. so it's willing to talk to russia about that by when he comes to nato expansion of nato and surrounding russia by a literal nato stayed saying, i said, is willing to talk about that because we've got the advantage here. there's nothing

russia can do about it, short of going to walk. so we're not going to talk about it. now. in february 24, russia said, well, we are going to do something about it. and, and so then russia change the equation, but as they were plenty of opportunities, i mean all the way through to february, right? mobile into the days of december, the 24 when john's, the shoals and president micron made the visits to moscow. and you know, even at that moment they could have been something done to stop this, but they didn't do it is that they just spouted their usual cliches. the thing please say they've been spouting for decades. well, maxime, what, what happened to the concept of indivisibility of security? because that was the mantra of the helsinki process. okay. and i think remember that this term came into circulation like in december and january, people learning about it again,

but that is the reality. and the west has forgotten about that, and that's why we found ourselves in the position where we are now. because the european security architecture was, was designed without russia and against russia. and on february 24th, they said no more. it no longer the case. go ahead. maxine were in the state of the kind of what i would call a prolonged wrong ground whole day because the same things that are being discussed . now. i have been debated back and we need to thousands when vladimir personally, she's me speech which triggered many policymakers in the west. but the point of that speech was that the, you can just promote, you know, the color revolutions and the time and pain in georgia. and your vision of unipolar world without, you know, facing the consequences that are there and you can really conscious which in particular, that address wasn't taken seriously. or it was taken but its own way. and what was

the warning in georgia or you or your after another, you know, kind of address appealed to the west happened to when spoken the when general assembly in september 2015, offering the west a counterterrorism partnership in the week of the crisis situation on rebel and in serious that wasn't really embraced and birth led to the russian operation and russian military campaign in syria. and were been in the situation of november last year. there's my college ready discussed aware, you know what very serious issue was raised and put on the table for the discussion and was pretty much was waved off. and what we see today is the product of the diplomatic negligence. that is such a diplomatic negligence. perfect. write that down and posted and put it in your wallet because that's exactly what we've experienced or does that be another really big trend of this year is the global south or the global majority,

as i like to call it. they stood up and they said no, okay, no to, to, to sanctions, no fleeing the dollar means the we finally see this huge paradigm ship. it's so many of talked about over the decades. but now it's actually happening. the global south is going its own way and it's going to decide on its own partners. oh, and by the way, exactly, a, they don't like so called western values. go at exactly exactly. exactly, if you observe in africa, thinks of change because they look at, in the, in the russian direction to find an alternative because they're afraid to buy the g b t values which are promoted by, by the way. and i would like to add that actually the width is isolated because not only china, not on the india, decided to prioritize the national interest, but such. oh, tam ha, a friend like saudi arabia decided to not officially to support russia,

for instance, to, to take a decision about a decrease in the old prediction with russia, which is a completely destroyed old. they are on to russian economical sanctions. so we're, we are in a new world and actually in the west as under estimated the weight of the new economics. because for russia, it was quite easy to find alternative market, not only for oil and gas, but for forfeited isis for. and you seeing a rush i can sell. so again, the, the west us completely under estimated and russia and the determination of the other countries we're tired of following the order of the global global west. yeah, georgia, exactly. i said it's really important here and, and having an alternative to the west. and again, there's

a huge literature on this is we're not be inventing it on this program here. but it's actually, you know, it's, it's taking on flash now it's actually becoming real because not only do they reject these values, they're not as of as afraid. they're still a little bit, but not as afraid of the west as they've been in the past. george yet, i mean in some ways we're going back to the model of the cold war in which the soviet union, ah, was the leader all the global resistance to west and had you money. but back then, the soviet union just simply wasn't economically powerful enough to challenge the hey, to many of the united states leasing economics. and they could militarily. but so now you know, the rest of the world, which basically during that unipolar moment, just had to do as a toll. now, you know, there, the leader, leader of the resistance. and i think that's where the russians role in the world.

and that's why russia, the economic illness, it's not as strong as china, but that's why russia is in the cross, has a scar, the west is concerned because, you know, the west seas, russia as the leader of the global resistance, and just infuriate the united states and i became much of the want to blow, we don't care about, you know, your agenda. and russia actually speaks for us speaks for our interest and our values. and this is something that was determined to stop and i think, you know, but, you know, the, the whole day to install mental, russia is really all about that. you know, how to knock russia out from, from its global leadership position. you know, maxine, one of the interesting things, again, western media will, you know, russia's isolated and all that. but i mean, if you go outside of the western media bubble, the world is watching russia take on the entirety of the west and it's still

standing and actually is, has great prospects. it's really a world historic moment. here we are about 45 seconds, go ahead. maxine will hopefully and i think the problem with consideration is not just the shelf illusion. it's the west by thinking that this is the case precious. so hard and shrinking. new space wanted reality for the rest of the world. now that are seen in other trends where countries are moving from none, alignment to multi alignment for the better for the worse, but eventually they're trying to diversify their geopolitical economic and other stakes with me for an adverse russia in particular. and that is also tell us that this kind of unipolar world were dictatorship, the west and the political institutions is shrinking, but it's going to take time. yeah. and then you know, the west always talks about diversity, but don't like diversity of ideas around the world. that's really quite amazing.

here everything is inverted here. 2022 is going to be the year remembered long into the future and by future historians. and i think we just wrote the 1st page as all the time we have on it. thank my guest here in moscow and in budapest. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. remember cross path roles the ah, ah no one, no, sir, no, no, admiral hook, no no. what door, more shrill than what they should end up unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly

biological weapons program that the world had ever known. and will not do production for this year or short book. a good one, you saw new rochelle, he one more mom. she no longer thought this is meant new. again, the more not up on there and i got the sale. i got your name up. i go on monday. i wish to know about joy. oh, new i know you did room or got more or less than a cheerio it's i had to put the sco their mother and all your body build god hours. oh boy, that's good to go on. what the on this wow she my and new on it. i'm all,

i can send more a month or put them out. i think, you know, when i was showing wrong, when i just don't know. i mean, we have to figure out because an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. by any measure, the year 2022 has been transformative. the conflict in ukraine, global inflation, growing food insecurity. and the west demand that you are with us or against is dominated our attention on this addition of cross talk. we discuss some of these

issues and more ah, ah, russia officially bands, oil exports that any country complying with the g 7 price cap. the decree will come into effect in february. did say to rob up society, i understand that when you have people running, you train the head of a private u. s. military group that frames ukrainian soldiers that met the country is corrupt, while also confirming here troops executed russian prisoners or the latest batch of leak twitter files reveal the u. s. administration pressure the platform to prioritize information on cobra vaccines to fit the narrative of.