want to express your loyalty. today's ukraine is totally based on then on the russell for the us. so i think that in, you know, in a long standing like process, we might expect that generally century for broderick with the century of, of century. so unity would eventually prevail over is a political agenda, which is the present. but we should not never underestimate the strength of this military dictatorship, a point which is present to candidates and the general theory which is present today, which is generally making the given presence and given ukrainian general society increasingly on too many thanks for joining the programs they really appreciate your insight into the matter. that's the very reference

darko restore the joe go from the serbian orthodox church. thank you. thank you. thank you for joining us. hey, all naughty international as always plenty more of the latest news updates, debate on discussion to be found on a website. and if you don't use i ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i am peter lavelle by any measure. the year 2022 has been transformative, the conflict and ukraine, global inflation, growing food insecurity,

and the west demand that you are with this or against is dominated our attention. on this addition of cross talk, we discuss some of these issues and more. ah cross stocking 2022. i'm joined by my guest here in moscow zavion bureau. he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis strap. all we also have maxine schwarzkopf. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and in budapest, we cross the george samuel alley. he's a podcast her at the, at the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals. are gentleman cross up rules and effect, that means he can jump in any time he want. and i always appreciate george. let me go to you 1st in budapest, i suppose it's kind of an understatement on the, on the, on my part of your but what was the event to the idea, the person that transformed this year? because i think all of us would agree, maybe not on what did it the most, but it was it trans from transformational year go ahead,

george transformational year, because what happened in february was the end of the post cold war era. the end of the year of the unit polar moment in which the west got to demand that this is the way the world has to be ordered. and everybody has to jump to it. and russia shatter that equations. and by doing that, and by withstanding everything that the west nato, the united space through as the mother of all sanctions, that they both the, all of the weapon systems that they sent into ukraine. by doing that, russia essentially shattered that, that moment. and, and the rest of the world is looked on and i think that it's going to be very,

very difficult for the west to recover from that and to some, to restore the money that he had been boasting of the 1989. and we are most famous at the end of the history essay. well, mac same, basically the same questionnaire. i mean, we, we had, with george bush senior talk about a new world order, which has been widely discussed. but i think in this year we do have a new world order. it's maybe not very neat and clean and smooth, but something is emerging and i agree with george. we're leaving something in the past. maxime, your thought was as, as the 911 atrocities have concluded, the era 990 s. and the marked perhaps the start of the end of the uniform world will be the fuller moment. as a brenda, the back of 990 s, i think that these here,

the conflict in your has marked an ending to the era. took thousands where russia has sought to find the common denominator in relation where the west predominantly based on this counterterrorism agenda, which has not been embraced on a number of occasions by western counterparts. so we're now definitely entering a new era. we don't know what it is, so we perhaps cannot call it in any way, but we can call it what it is. not that is it's been and a post post bipolar era. and the reason that there are so many emerging power. so in the global south, in particular, that are now very much, i wouldn't say they are dictating the terms, but their policies matter so much more than they used to matter. even 10 years ago, 5 years ago tells us that the support centric world is shaping up objectively. yeah, well, i mean, exactly a, the, the west isn't taking that very easily. okay. i mean,

i think all of us can agree on that, but a gemini, you know, once you have it, you don't like to lose it. exactly. you know, for me, the, in this year one event, you kind of crystallize everything that we've already said here was the destruction of the north stream pipelines. ok. and it remains a mystery for some people here. but that it's a metaphor and it's, it's very physical. if it's material, there was a huge breach that is not going to be healed for a very long time. savvy a? yes, of course. the 2022. it's 3rd into your, of the destruction of the european economy, not by russia, but by washington. as you are perfectly underlying, we observe that london or washington it's not so important. it can destroy a pipelines with a barrier, fundamentally unethical infrastructure in for the continued tar europa and no

naser bell in nor paris dare to even just saying it's not russia. it's which will lead beer already a thing, but they didn't dare say any thing on the who is guilty. so in my opinion, the most important fact is the complete destruction of the, of the so the complete destruction of the, of the european economy by washington. and no naser, again, 1000000000. know paris did say something. well, it's actually interesting. you mentioned at george, i mean, you know, we, i think that you know what, one thing that marks the, the year that's ending is this, this amazing propaganda program program of not allowing any kind of descent on that ukraine a narrative. it's really extraordinary. a lot of people have been denied platforms . r t that you're on right now has been attacked. but what is really happened is that we keep hearing about unity, unity, unity,

zalinski goes to washington unity. but you know, exactly is absolutely right. you know, paris and berlin will never say anything now against american hegemony will just have to suck it up. george. yeah, that's exactly right. and the arrogance that the united states displaced to war, it's close allies is quite extraordinary. via mentions about the north stream pipelines. they know perfectly well who did it, and we know it because of the silence. it was like this evidence that russia was behind it. then you know, we wouldn't have the end of it. i mean, way, when we just constant barking from everyone in europe is that there is science, they know perfectly well who's behind it, and they keeping quiet about it. then we have the business of the european dependence on liquefied natural gas from the united states. so micron comes along

as, as a big war times as much well, like with a natural gas as the americans. and how does the vitamin station react as a? yeah. ok, that's what you're doing. but what about your inflation reduction? i, you know, your, of prioritizing american industry do european industry. and so the americans are, the americans do not care. they do not care. the whole policy in ukraine has been driven by the united states. you know, all the way back to 2008 when the bush administration insisted on making that promise to ukraine about eventual nature membership. the europeans have had no say in this, and they have had to bear the cost. and, you know, as we headed to the new year, we know that anything of the europeans want anything, want some sort of a settlement in grain. they don't have the means at all over insisting on it of the

americans will squelch any agreement that they're not happy with. it will be decided on america stones, or at least that's how washington sees it. we don't care whole what parent berlin has to say. you know, maxine this here also marks, at least in my opinion, being historian of russian history is that this breach that we have within the european land mass is at russia after 300 years is basically at least for the time being to turn it back on europe, and that is world historic maxime that is true. however, i think, you know, and we're already hearing this noises that russian been doing this in different organizations in russia, had just has to leave your brain and that things will be back on track. i think those who are advocating the stamps did not really realize until scope of the kind of the mental shift that has happened over the past few months in the rushing

society, perhaps even more than the russian at least. but the russian leaves are shifted as well. perhaps in just a slower pace, and these, you know, was trying to build links with the rest of the world with it, with the needle eastern countries for the asian countries. me so big. and that is actually, you know, as happens in the past, russian history that the major shifts had to happen because of some crisis. you know, it, it, usually russia slowed to react to changes on until, you know, there is some crisis situation where it just passages so such was the case during the world war 2, where most of the industries that carried the soviet union success were built during the during the most hardest and toughest years of the world, such as the case right now. and the problem is if you know things are saddled over some time, it will be hard to, you know,

return over things that are being loss. now that, that is the case for the companies that prefer to leave russia, that is the case for the industries that have now are undergoing should be, are changes in dramatic changes. and i think eventually it will be harder loss. and one of the programs, peter, you mentioned that, you know, the calculus is right now for the europeans to get through this winter. but the long term challenges, you know, getting through was the other. we define winter and this is the norm. this is in reality and everyone will have to adapt. yeah, well, exactly, before we go to the break here. i mean, you know, there's always been this question. you know, does russia need europe more than europe needs rush? well, i think that question is being answered. i mean, russia is the most sanctioned country in the world, life is fine. okay. everybody's getting a, getting through it. okay, sure. there's some annoyances, but i can't, i don't think the europeans can say the same thing as the average russian gavia before we go to the break ahead. yes,

of course. the europe completely underestimates the ways of the russian economy in the european economy. because there were considering that, okay, it's on the for present under world or the world markets. but it's, so maybe it's a globally 3 percent, but it's very important for us for fatalities or it's very important for energy. it's very important for nuclear energies her and their estimates is, is as well. and actually the west, globally completely, and their estimated the weight of the russian economy, the power of his army, the determination of not only of vladimir putin but of the russian of the russian population. and then just lay $229.00 that one year ago. exactly. vladimir putin tried to give one last chance to enforce exactly exactly, hold that thought. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the year that's about to pass. stay with arte.

lou needs to come to russian state full narrative. i've unfortunately no slammed fever. i'm not doing that for a group in the 55 when. okay, so 9 is gonna be the one else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine. restate on russia today and split ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube and pinterest with

with this. so you melissa, and this will stream manipulators or not, but missile you smile, dental. what cold showed mr. bonnie: so the dodger, nick was laquia and rhetoric national center course rush. so yeah, them for you, daniel, is your amino to not men each was smart. also, some will take, which if somebody in middle kenesaw publish venice last so this suddenly could to look solar eclipse indoors. yeah. which are fed in, you'd see eci yet. no more. so been glove the under seymour starting closer to banassi dubois because you'll be but dyslexia, i still want to watch a loud,

awkward up while you'll be put it down that you're not on that on. if not said, i would show you that you know, nice easy to learn a swing, pushing cargo, or slip, or veterans shoot dog, yelled squad, or he's mark floor. but i swear these took josh, welcome back. across stock were all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing 2022. okay, let's go back to exactly a here in moscow we, we ran into a hard break and you didn't get to finish your point. so please do now go ahead. thank you peter. yet i drew just would like to to underline that, and in my opinion, it would when it will remain in history that one year ago. exactly one year ago,

ready me put in, tried to give a last chance to our friends to were germany and even to natal to implement derminger agreement, which would have been implemented in foster on december 2015. so we, so our long vladimir putin weights g o started the suspicious apparition. so actually, and paradoxically, what we observe is that putting gave a last chance to nato. and unfortunately, we so and know we exactly know that a dimension agreement where never assigned to be implemented. as exactly said natalie, mr. parish ankle, but her an angel america. and i'm sure that is the same for, for paris that all these agreements with don't to a, to not to be implemented. and that's given node of a very important question exactly. was said, the man, the demetri method,

if 2 days ago, that there is nobody which was which we can sign and about what we are going to science or the problem in 2023. it's what can i, what kind of agreement can be reached? well, you know, it was nobody or we can trust. yes, it is the point. you're george, you know, agreement incapable. that's. i think that isn't a brilliant russian word and it's actually getting greater currency. ok. i came across a maybe like 2 years ago. but george and i kind of a, an extension of what exactly i was saying. you know, when i look at the, the propaganda coverage of this conflict, mister zalinski goes to washington and all this. but george, russia, security demands have not changed. and this is something that, you know, we're responsible, state craft and all these people, they don't want to recognize as they're in their own bubble here. and i want to address the same question to maxime here, but you know, we're ending the year basically in the same place. ok, if you're not going to listen to our demands, why should we listen to yours?

george? yeah, exactly right. because the security demands, they go all the way back to the 1990 s of the days when the wes favorite boy, boris yeltsin was in power in moscow. and they continue to raise the issue of nato expansion. and they complain and they complained. and they complain, and the with the, you know, they can basic and why did they, you know, they can face because it was nothing russia could do about it and said, well, russia can do anything the right. you know, well, they may complain about, well, the baltic states are being incorporated into nato. so what are you going to do about that? because russia couldn't do anything about it. as of why when the grainy shoot came up, the west response was exactly the same. what are you going to do about it? and then russia gave the answer, but this is really where it comes to it later in the west is only for best to talk to russia about the issues that interest the united states. the united states is

interested in the issue of strategic nuclear weapons because their russia has built up an edge and the united states is anxious to overcome that edge. so it's willing to talk to russia about that by when he comes to nato expansion of nato and surrounding russia by a literal of nature stayed. i stayed, isn't willing to talk about that because we've got the advantage here. there's nothing russia can do about it, short of going to walk. so we're going to talk about it. now. in february, the 24, russia said, well, we are going to do something about it. and, and so the russia change the equation, but as they were plenty of opportunities, i mean all the way through to february, right, mobile into the days of the february 24. when john's, the shoulds and president background made the visits to moscow. and even at that

moment, they could have been something done to stop this, but they didn't do it. they just spouted their usual cliches. the thing please say they've been spouting for decades. well, maxime, what happened to the concept of indivisibility of security? because that was the mantra of the helsinki process. okay. and i think remember that this term came into circulation like in december and january, people learning about it again. but that is the reality. and the west has forgotten about that. and that's why we found ourselves in the position where we are now. because the european security architecture was, was designed without russia and against russia, and on february 24th, they said no more. it no longer the case. go ahead. maxine, we're in the states will be kind of what i would call a prolong wrong ground whole day because of the same things that are being discussed. now, i happened to be that back and we need to thousands,

when vladimir putin personally, where she's mimic speech, which triggered many policymakers in the west. but the point of that speech was that the, you can just promote, you know, the color revolutions and the time when you plan in georgia. and your vision of the unit will go out, you know, facing the consequences that are there. and the security constance was in particular, that address wasn't taken seriously and or it was taken to its own way. and what was the warning in georgia later you are your after and other kind of address appealed to the west happened to when spoken, the general assembly in september 2015, offering the west counterterrorism partnership. in the week of days, crisis situation unraveling and serious that wasn't really embraced. and that led to the russian operation in russian military campaign in syria. and were been in

the situation of november last year. was my college ready discussed aware you know where very serious issue was raised and put on the table for the discussion and was pretty much was waived off and and what we see today is the product of the diplomatic negligence lead that is such a giplin matic negligence, perfect. write that down on a posted and put it in your wallet because that's exactly what we've experienced or does that be another really big trend of this year is the global south or the global majority, as i like to call it. they stood up and they said no, okay, no to, to, to sanctions, no. fleeing the dollar. i mean the, we finally see this huge paradigm shift, but so many of talked about over the decades. but now it's actually happening. the global south is going its own way and it's going to decide on its own partners. oh, and by the way, exactly, a they don't like so called western values. go ahead. exactly. exactly. exactly. if

you observe in africa, thinks of change because they look at, in the, in the russian direction to find an alternative because they're afraid by the d. b t values which are promoted by, by the width. and i would like to add that actually the width is isolated because not only china, not only india decided to prioritized her national interests, but such a long term term on a friend. like saudi arabia decided to not officially to support russia, for instance, to, to take a decision about, to decrease in the old prediction with russia, which is a completely destroyed old. they are on to russian economical sanctions. so we are in a new world, and actually the west has under estimated the weight of the new economics. because for russia, it was quite easy to find alternative market, not only for oil and gas,

but for forfeited isaac, for any seeing a rush i can sell. so i, again, the west has completely under estimated and russia and the determination of the other countries we're tired of following the order of the global global west. yeah, georgia tech savvy sets and it's really important here in a and having an alternative to the west. and again, there's a huge literature on this is we're not be inventing it on this program here, but it's actually, you know, it's taking on flesh now it's actually becoming real because not only do they reject these values, they're not as of as afraid. they're still a little bit, but not as afraid of the west as they've been in the past george. yet, i mean, in some ways we're going back to the model of the cold war in which the soviet union, ah, was the leader all the global resistance to west and had you money. but back then,

the soviet union just simply wasn't economically powerful enough to challenge the haitian, many of the united states of leasing economics. and they called militarily. but so now you know, the rest of the world, which basically during that unipolar moment just had to do as the toll now, you know, they have a leader, a leader of the resistance. and i think that's where the russians role in the world . and that's why russia, the economic, obviously, is not as strong as china, but that's why russia is in the cross has as far as the west is concerned. because, you know, the west seems russia as the leader of the global resistance, and just infuriate the united states. and i became much lower the want to blow, we don't care about, you know, your agenda. and russia actually speaks for us. speaks for our interest

people, our values. and this is something that the west is determined to start. but i think, you know, but, you know, the, the o to install mental russia is really all about that. you know how to knock russia out from, from its global leadership position. you know, maxime, one of the interesting things again, that with western media will, you know, russia's isolated and all that. but i mean, if you go outside of the western media bubble, the world is watching russia take on the entirety of the west and it's still standing and actually is, has great prospects. it's really in a world historic moment here. we're about 45 seconds. go ahead, maxine will help. so lutely, and i think the problem with consideration is not just the shelf illusion. it's the west by thinking that this is the case precious. so hard and shrinking. new space one for allergies for the rest of the world. now that we're seeing in other trends where countries are moving from none, alignment to multi alignment for the better for the worse,

eventually they're trying to diversify their geopolitical economic and other stakes with different actors. russia in particular. and that is also telling us that this kind of unipolar world were the dictatorship, the west and the political institutions. he says, shrinking, but it's gonna take time. yeah, any, any of the west always talks about diversity, but they don't like diversity of ideas around the world. that's really quite amazing. here everything is inverted here. 2022. it's is going to be the a year remembered long into the future. and by future historians, and i think we just wrote the 1st page as all the time we have. i want to thank my guest here in moscow and in budapest. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, darky. see you next time. remember rostock rolls. ah

ah ah ah ah ah ah wasn't it was a lie in control if i give it a shot now shorter one and i'm not trying to stay like a one on union. what a finance national z

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