in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us and the depth will remain in the shallows. ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i am peter lavelle by any measure. the year 2022 has been transformative. the conflict in ukraine, global inflation, growing food insecurity, and the west demand that you are with this or against is dominated our attention on this addition of cross talk, we discuss some of these issues and more cross

stocking 2022. i'm joined by my guest here in moscow gs ebay morrow. he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis chapel. we also have maxine schwarzkopf. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and in budapest we cross the george samuel alley. he's a podcast her at the, at the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals. hard gentleman cross sack rules and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate george, let me go to you 1st in budapest, i suppose it's kind of an understatement on the, on the, on my part of your brain. what was the event to the idea, the person that transformed this year? because i think all of us would agree, maybe not on what did it the most, but it was a transfer of transformational year go ahead, george a transformational year because what happened in february was the end of the post cold war era. the end of the era of

the unit bowl a moment in which the west got to demand that this is the way the world has to be ordered, and everybody have to jump to it and russia, shafter that equations. and by doing that, and by withstanding everything that the west nato, the united states, through the mother of all sanctions, that they boast, the, all of the weapon systems they sent into ukraine. by doing that, russia essentially shattered that, that moment. and, and the rest of the world is looked on and i think that it's going to be very, very difficult for the west to recover from that and to some, to restore the, the money that he had been boasting of the 1989 and we are most famous at the end

of history ethic. well mac, same basically the same questionnaire. i mean, we, we had, with george bush senior talk about a new world order, which has been widely discussed. but i think in this year we do have a new world order. it's maybe not very neat and clean and smooth, but something is emerging. and i agree with george. we're leaving something in the past. maxime, your thought was as, as the 911 atrocities of concluded the era of 990 s. and the marked perhaps the start of the end of the uniform world will be in fuller moment as they are, you know, brenda, the back of 990 s. i think that the lease here, the conflict in ukraine has marked an ending to the era. took thousands where russia has sought to find the common denominator in relation where the west

predominantly based on this counterterrorism agenda, which has not been embraced on a number of occasions by western counterparts. so we're now definitely entering a new era. we don't know what it is, so we perhaps cannot call it in any way, but call it what it is. not that is it's been end of post post bipolar era. and the reason that there are so many emerging power in the global south, in particular, that are now very much, i wouldn't say they're dictating the terms, but their policies matter so much more than they used to matter. even 10 years ago, 5 years ago tells us that the support centric world is shaping up objectively. yeah, well, i mean, exactly a, the, the west isn't taking that very easily. okay. i mean, i think all of us can agree on that, but a gemini, you know, once you have it, you don't like to lose it. exactly. you know, for me, the, in this year, one event kind of crystallized everything that we've already said here was the

destruction of the north stream pipelines. ok. and it remains a mystery for some people here. but that it's a metaphor and it's, it's very physical. if it's material, there was a huge breach. that is not going to be healed for a very long time. savvy a? yes, of course. the 2000. 22. it's the, the, you're of the district of the european economy, not by russia, but by washington. and as you perfectly underline, we observed that london or washington, it's not so important. can destroy a pipelines with a very fundamental in any decoding prospect or in a, for the continue to europe. and neither bell in nor perry's dare to even just saying it's not russia, it's which will lead beer already

a thing. but they didn't dare say anything on the who is guilty. so in my opinion, the most important fact is the complete destruction of the, of the so the complete destruction of the, of the european economy by washington, and no naser, again, 1000000000. no paris did say something. well, it's actually interesting. you mentioned at george, i mean, you know, we, i think that, you know, one thing that marks the, the year that's ending is this, this amazing propaganda program program of not allowing any kind of descent on that ukraine and narrative. it's really extraordinary. a lot of people have been denied platforms. r t that you're on right now has been attacked. but what is really happened is that we keep hearing about unity, unity, unity, zalinski goes to washington unity. but you know, exactly is absolutely right. you know, paris and berlin will never say anything now against american hegemony will just have to suck it up. george. yeah,

that's exactly right. and the arrogance that the united states displaced to war, it's close allies is quite extraordinary. via mentions about the north stream pipelines. they know perfectly well who did it, and we know it because of the silence. it was like this evidence that russia was behind it. then you know, we wouldn't have the end of it. i mean, way, when we just constant barking from everyone in europe is that there is science, they know perfectly well who's behind it, and they keeping quiet about it. then we have the business of the european dependence on liquefied natural gas from the united states. so micron comes along as a big war times as much well, like with a natural gas as the americans. and how does the vitamin station react? i would say, yeah. okay,

that's what you're doing. but what about your inflation reduction? i know you prioritizing american industry european industry and so the americans are the americans do not care. they do not care. the whole policy in ukraine has been driven by the united states, you know, all the way back to 2008 when the bush administration insisted on making that promise to ukraine about, eventually, nato membership. the urban no say in this and they have to bear the cost. and, you know, as we head into the new year, we know that anything that you're going to want some sort of a settlement, a new grain. they don't have the means at all. all the insisting on the li americans will swell any agreement. then they're not happy with. it will be decided on america stuff, or at least that's how washington's the, that we don't care at all what paris and berlin has to say. you know, maxime,

this year also marks, at least in my opinion, being historian of russian history, is that this breach that we have within the european land masses of russia after 300 years is basically at least for the time being to turn it back on europe. and that, that is world historic maxime, that is true. however, i think, you know, and we're already hearing this noises. but rushing, been doing this in different organizations and russia had just has to leave your brain and that things will be back on track. i think those who are advocating the stamps are not really realised until scope of the kind of the mental shift that has happened over the past few months in the russian society, perhaps even more than the russian at least. but the russian leaves are shifted as well. perhaps it's just a slower pace, and these, you know, was trying to build links with the rest of the world with it,

with the middle eastern countries for the asian countries. me so big. and that is actually, you know, as happens in the past, russian history that the major shifts had to happen because of some crisis. you know, it, it, usually russia slowed to react to changes on until, you know, there is some crisis situation where it just passages so such was the case during the world war 2, where most of the industries that carried the soviet union success were built during the during the most, the hardest and toughest years of the world, such as the case right now. and the problem is if you know things are saddled over some time, it will be hard to, you know, return over things that are being loss. now that, that is the case for the companies that prefer to leave russia, that is the case for the industries that have now are undergoing should be, are changes in dramatic changes. and i think eventually it will be harder loss. and

one of the programs, peter, you mentioned that, you know, the calculus is right now for the europeans to get through this winter. but the long term challenges, you know, getting through the other winter. and this is the norm. this is in reality and everyone will have to adapt. yeah, well, exactly, before we go to the break here. i mean, you know, there's always been this question. you know, does russia need europe more than europe needs rush? well, i think the question is being answered. i mean, russia is the most sanctioned country in the world, life is fine. okay. everybody's getting a, getting through it. okay, sure. there are some annoyances, but i can't, i don't think the europeans can say the same thing as the average russian gavia before we go to the break ahead. yes, of course. the europe completely underestimate the ways of the russian economy in the european economy. because there were considering that, okay, it's on the for present under world the, the world markets. but it, so maybe it's

a globally 3 percent, but it's very important for us for fatalities or it's very important for energy. it's very important for nuclear energies her and their estimates is, is as well. and actually the waste globally completely and their estimated the weight of the russian economy, the power of his army, the determination of not only of vladimir putin but of the origin of the russian population. and the just lay to 200 i lot, one year ago. exactly. vladimir putin a tried to give one last chance to enforce the exam. a exam is hold that thought ready to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the year. that's about to pass. stay with arte

ah, need to come to russian state will never. i've stayed as i'm turning the no santini div asking him then i'll send send up for a coup in the 55 with will ban in the european union. the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today, and split our t spoke neck, even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

me. it's forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to create trust rather than fear i would like to take on various job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with obama protective own existence with ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter level to remind

you we're discussing 2022. ah ah. okay, let's go back to exactly a here in moscow we, we ran into a hard break and you didn't get to finish your point, so please do now. go ahead. thank you peter. yet address, we're just would like to, to underline that, and in my opinion, it would when it will remain in history. that one year ago. exactly one year ago, ready me put in tried to give a last chance to were friends to were germany and even to natal to implement dirt minced agreement, which would have been implemented in foster on december 2015. so we, so our long vladimir putin weights g o started z, suspicious apparition. so actually, and paradoxically, what we observe is that putting gave a last chance to nato. and unfortunately,

we so and know we exactly know that a dimension agreement where never assigned to be implemented. as exactly said natalie, mr. parish ankle, but her an angel america, and i'm sure that is the same for, for paris. that's all these agreements with don't to a, to not to be implemented at, that's given node. a very important question exactly was said the and then the demetri method, if 2 days ago, that there is nobody which was which we can sign and about what we are going to science or the problem in 2023. it's what can i, what kind of agreement can be reached? well, you know, it was nobody or we can trust. yes, i said is the point you're charging our agreement incapable. that's. i think that is a brilliant russian word and it's actually getting greater currency. okay. i came across maybe like, 2 years ago, but george and i kind of a,

an extension of what exactly i was saying. you know, when i look at the, the propaganda coverage of this conflict, mister zillow goes to washington and all this. but george, russia, security demands, have not changed since this is something that, you know, we're responsible, state craft and all these people, they don't want to recognize as they're in their own bubble here. and i want to address the same question to maxime here, but you know, we're ending the year basically in the same place. ok, if you're not going to listen to our demands, why should we listen to yours? george? yeah, exactly right. because the security demands, they go all the way back to the 1990 s the days when the wes favorite boy, boris yeltsin was in power in moscow and they continue to raise the issue of nato expansion. and they complain and they complained, and they complain, and the with the, you know, they can basic and why did they, you know, they can place because it was nothing russia could do about it. and what russia can

do, anything the right, you know, well, they may complain about, well, the baltic states are being graded into nato. so what are you going to do about it? because russia couldn't do anything about it as a why anyone do you? great issue came up, the west responses, exactly the same, what you going to do about it and, and then russia gave the answer. but this is really where it comes to the west is only for best to talk to russia about the issues that interest the united states . the united states is interested in the issue of strategic nuclear weapons because their russia has built up an age and the united states is anxious to overcome that edge. so it's willing to talk to russia about that by when it comes to nato expansion of nato. and surrounding russia by a literal un nato state, the united states isn't willing to talk about that because a, with a, we've got the advantage here. there's nothing russia can do about it,

short of going to walk. so we're not going to talk about it now. being on the for $24.00, russia said, well, we are going to do something about it. and, and so the russia changed the equation, but as they were plenty of opportunities, i mean all the way through to february, right? we're going to days of december, the 24th. when john's, the shoulds and president background made the visits to moscow. and even at that moment, they could have been something done to stop this, but they didn't do it. they just spouted their usual cliches. the thing felicia, they've been spouting for decades. well, maxime, what happened to the concept of indivisibility of security? because that was the mantra of the helsinki process. okay. and i think remember that this term came into circulation like in december and january, people learning about it again. but that is the reality. and the west has forgotten

about that. and that's why we found ourselves in the position where we are now. because the european security architecture was, was designed without russia and against russia. and on february 24th they said no more. it no longer the case go ahead. maxine were in the states and we kind of what i would call a prolong, wrong ground whole day because of the same things that are being discussed. now, i happened to be that back and we need to thousands one black person legal. she's minute speech which triggered many policymakers in the west, but the point of that speech was that the, you can just promote, you know, the color revolutions and the time when you plan in georgia and your vision of your little world without, you know, facing the consequences that are there and as your career counselors, in particular, that address wasn't taken seriously and or it was taken to its own way. and what was the warning in georgia later you are your after and other kind of address

appealed to the west happened to spoken the un general assembly in september 2015, offering the west counterterrorism partnership. in the week of days, crisis situation unraveling and serious that wasn't really embraced. and that led to the russian operation in russian military campaign in syria. and were been in the situation of november last year. was my college ready discussed aware, you know, where very serious issue was raised and put on the table for the discussion and was pretty much was waved off. and, and what we see today is the product of the diplomatic negligence lead. that is such a diplomatic negligence. perfect. write that down on a posted and put it in your wallet because that's exactly what we've experienced or that be another really big trend of this year is the global south or the global

majority, as i like to call it. they stood up and they said no, okay, no to, to, to sanctions, no. fleeing the dollar. i mean the, we finally see this huge paradigm shift that so many of talked about over the decades. but now it's actually happening. the global south is going its own way and it's going to decide on its own partners. oh, and by the way, exactly, a they don't like so called western values. go ahead. exactly. exactly. exactly. if you observe in africa, thinks of change because they look at, in the, in the russian direction to find an alternative because they're afraid by the d. b t values which are promoted by, by the width. and i would like to add that actually the width is isolated because not only china, not on the india, decided to prioritize the national interest, but such a long term friend, like saudi arabia decided to not officially to super russia, for instance, to,

to take a decision about christian though, i'd for addiction with russia, which is a completely destroyed old. they are on to russian economical sanctions. so we are in a new world, actually at the west as under estimated the weight of the new economics. because for russia, it was quite easy to find alternative market, not only for oil and gas, but for forfeit that isaac for. and you seeing a rush i can sell. so again, the west us completely under estimated and russia and the determination of the other countries we're tired of following the order of the global global west. yeah, georgia, exactly a sense and it's really important here and, and having an alternative to the west. and again, there's a huge literature on this is we're not inventing it on this program here,

but it's actually, you know, it's taking on flesh now it's actually becoming real because not only do they reject these values, they're not as of as afraid. they're still a little bit, but not as afraid of the west as they've been in the past george. yet, i mean, in some ways we're going back to the model of the cold war in which the soviet union, i was the leader, all the global resistance to west and had you money. but back then, the soviet union just simply wasn't economically powerful enough to challenge the hey, to many of the united states of leasing economics. and they called militarily. but so now you know, the rest of the world, which basically during that unipolar moment just had to do as a toll. now, you know, they have a leader leader of the resistance. and i think that's what the rush is role in the

world. and that's why russia, the economic illness is not as strong as china, but that's why russia is in the cross hairs far as the west is concerned. because, you know, the west seems russia as the leader of the global resistance, and just infuriate the united states. and i became much lower as the warrant says, look, we don't care about, you know, your agenda. and russia actually speaks for us. speaks for our interest and cecil, our values, and this is something that was determined to stop. and i think, you know, but, you know, the, the o to install mental russia is really all about that. you know, how to knock russia out from, from its global leadership. position, you know, maxime, one of the interesting things again, the western media will, you know, russia's isolated and all that. but, i mean, if you go outside of the western media bubble, the world is watching russia take on the entirety of the west. and it's still

standing and actually is, has great prospects. it's really a world historic moment here. we're about 45 seconds, go ahead. maxine will help. so lutely, and i think the problem with consideration is not just the shelf illusion. it's the west by thinking that this is the case precious, so hard and shrinking new space one for allergies for the rest of the world. now that we're seeing another trend where countries are moving from none, alignment to multi alignment for the better for the worse, eventually they're trying to diversify their geopolitical economic and other stakes with different actors. russia in particular. and that is also tell us that this kind of unipolar world were dictatorship. the western political institutions is shrinking, but it's going to take time. yeah. and they, any of the west always talks about diversity, but they don't like diversity of ideas around the world. that's really quite amazing. here everything is inverted here. 2022 is going to be the year remembered

long into the future and by future hist orients and i think we just wrote the 1st page as all the time we have. i want to thank my guest here in moscow and in budapest, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. remember ross hospitals i ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? ah, in a world transformed what will make you feel safe, isolation, whole community? are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere?

direct. what is true war? his faith in the world corrupted. you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah ah, glad to business anything, but they want to find that out with them. boston, do i need to grab it to them with key at the when washington's keep the process, please, can you do not mind computer grains can? that's a little bit. it was put in a rush for you guys to phone with

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