sale she did it because she genuinely believed in these courses when i've heard her speak, for example, at julian is one of the birthday party. so julian savage, i have been amazed at how strongly she believes in her ideals. a lot of these, i guess, you know, in, in the media world, in the fashion world, a lot of bill presentations that you have maybe for sure, rather than a rising, often from genuine conviction, their images that people could on for the rest of the world. and it seems to me, at least as an outsider, that she seemed really committed to the course. she was fighting for doctor before i let you go and it's so good to have you on the program before we wrap up this, our headline from moscow. did you think vivian westwood support the julian assange has helped him in his battle? suddenly, so she suspended herself in a cage outside the corpse, wearing

a yellow dress reminding everybody the astound just the original canary in the coal mine. she, i was at an event where she was on the podium and she brought this wonderful effigy of assange and slice the head off, which really shocked many of us in the audience. and she was, she said, this is what they're doing to astonish. they're slowly murdering it, and it was made radical and at many startling statements like that that she caught the attention of the public and allowed people to recognize that the case is a salad which had been silenced for so long could be discussed in the mainstream. and could be discussed by those who don't. you haven't had any conscience. i was afraid. i think you're absolutely right. if you were in westwood who became known, you know, certain outlandish antics, certainly got the tension show to places where she felt it was deserved and survey

. julianna's science would have been one of those top priorities. doctor depot government engine driver and observe a julian sanchez extradition hearing. great to have you on the program tonight. thank you for your time. thank you for having me. thank you. thanks for your time as well. we are back soon with all accounts 2023 will probably be a continuation of the year at that it just ended or transformation and change more instability and uncertainty. on this edition of cross talk, we examined the likely trends for the year ahead of us.

well, it's been 100 years since the formation of the soviet union. and although the country has not been around for 3 decades already, the impact it's had on world geo politics has been so profound that it's still a subject that's widely spoken about today. and today we're also going to get the opportunity to discuss that with the renowned russian philosopher, alexander duke. and thank you very much for joining us and giving us time for this interview and mr. dugan. the 1st question i want to ask has to do with the soviet union, specifically, do you think that it would have been possible to preserve it? and if it was preserved, how do you think the soviet union would look as a multinational country in 2022? the 1st of all, when it so understand that geopolitical is speaking, soviet union was continuation over the russian empire, ideologically, it was quite different. it was based on the totally opposite of values and

ideas, but as geopolitical entity, as heartland as erosion in the land mass, and the region over the classic girths. oh, for geo politics are alike mac kinder or brzezinski. soviet union was direct continuation and to realization of the lent power opposite to war. see power. so in that sense that was kind of realization over their main job politico contradiction. that is the core all who human history according to my kinder. so if we consider the full all the soviet union and this geopolitical aspect, the meaning called that was a kind of defeat or the land power and frond, oh that see power. that was a good 8 catastrophe. off of these,

a hot land and the big achievements all of the sea power or global western liberal solution. in that sense, we could imagine a condemnation old fall soviet union during cluster 3 decades alike. some uranus, the thinkers presumes eat a can or would be or could be the and older ideology of communism. it was almost inevitable unavoidably neat to get a read off these sir, exhaust, that's soviet r o dogmatism. but that could not mean directly the fall of the soviet union, undisturbed disappearance of unity of this geopolitical entity. and e for

soviet union would survive. and now this a catastrophic eat a will be a kind of room, eurasia newnan, a kind of your asian empire, or return to that when the classical russian empire, with strategical central isn't ant multiplicity, all the ads in new groups leaving inside. so i think that was quite possible. and precisely now we are dealing with the will of the most goal to reconquer of this edge of political space. there is the moment of the return to the geopolitics because a lent power once more once now, to re assure re affirm its independence sovereignty in front, off the collective west that ease to day, under, oh, almost full control of that as well. and this is the balance, socratic,

a lead off superpower. now, we are reconstructing this journey job political space without overlay, without, ah, soviet ideology, but trying to restore the greatness over the empire, or recreate. oh, great. you're asian union. oh, greer. and you fall, the soviet union, of course, is something that's studied very heavily and other socialist countries that are still existing today, especially china. they study the fall of the soviet union a lot to understand what they could do differently as specifically as a communist country. so they've reformed into a more market model while still retaining this sort of socialist ideology. do you think that could have been possible if the soviet union were to be preserved? i think it would be possible. and china precisely has got the main lesson all the

fall of the soviet union that you should. and you are obliged to bruiser and safe to save the country, the unity, the strategical control over, eat, or including all, all ethnic groups. because china is mildly ethical. society as well as soviet union, oh, worse and roger eas, without and transforming, transform to the country without losing their power, all their central government. so you could make reform, you could change. some are some aspects of economy, but you know, or should loose the sovereignty and control over geopolitical space. in order to make correct god transformation over the ideology, you should discard ancient tradition. so now, china is a communist political power. almost of the letter with confusion isn't

in the center success, full control. oh or we're growing a liberal market. the chinese didn't. it didn't a div talk that society a liberal democracy ways, a liberal market. they have preserve to vertical government over the country with a unique and who will unite that power political power. and they have submitted a liberal economy to it. and i think that is example how and the positive situation in the all of us on soviet union could be centralized power with full job political control over all parts and at the cur zones. wes's mixed economy, wiz combination, older socialism ways, traditionalism was great there. and there was

a russian tradition, well use l debt caught fox function that could work as it works in china. we have lost the chance to transform our society ideologically. but to prevent these collapse and to, to save their unity, that is much more than soviet union because that is unity of the heartland of eurasia. the unit of empire, if it, if you're one, so that it, that is possible. and china shows that it is possible collapse of the soviet union was suicide and not to adjust the demand for independence or were former republics. that was a suicide made in the center. so we are fully responsible are, we are actions. we are fully responsible for that. it's not only just nash willis

fraud or from the periphery. that was the crime ah, mate by the government of moscow, by the center. what you used to the term near totalitarianism, connected to confucianism, to this, to describe what modern china has basically reformed into. and it's interesting to me because as an american totalitarianism, the term, as i understand it, is basically has long been just a word that people in the west have used to attack russia or china. and when i'm, when i moved here, i realized that, you know, things are a lot more, a nuanced in countries that are just label totalitarianism, like the state just controls everything. i just wanted to understand like, what exactly did you mean by that in terms of china and also in the soviet union? would you say that that was a totalitarian society as well in the west we have, we are dealing with your total return liberalism. so it,

it is only hypo chrissy to to pretend that anybody else except the liberals, authoritarian regimes and for the lutheran, a liberals, on most of the letter in chinese for society is not only beryl or liberal to their there it is just the holistic we're going to use more appropriate, ward holistic, holistic system. it. this is the when the common law is foot over the individual who could blame that s the letter in, but we can blame us through there and as well are these liberal democracy debt brit dense to have the absolute truth. and to impulse this, sol cole tools on anybody else in the world without, without regarding the, the particularity of different civilizations. so there is inherited racism and the rest of the liberal liberalism because it then defy the western historical

political cultural experience with universal one. so if you say that the west is these, the same as humanity, humanity is on the west, undeveloped as not yet western enough. it is purely racist approach. it could be openly racist as in a form of national socialism based on the biology. but it is as we'll cultural racism that we are dealing with in modern days, liberal globalism. if chinese think this system or this regime fits them well, they like that it so that up to them to decide not to for the activists of open society. or proponents of liberalism,

so lead the people decide for themselves and death is the main principal all for real, real democracy if you want on the international level, we've been talking a lot about communism. and i want to ask if you see a sort of unifying ideology in modern russian society like the one that was in the soviet union. because obviously for most i would say of the soviet period, people were united by this one idea communism. they wanted to build communism and that that was something they had to strive towards. do you think that the modern russian people have something like that? and if not, what could fill that gap could not fill that gap. we could not return to this bill to solving a time, but in spite of some sympathy, growing sympathy to the time, but to return is impossible because we were, we could not accept this dog, but is max's is out of over the questions. so we need to get a further and to,

to, to mixer demand of social justice. so bit future wiz traditional traditional well use for and by recently statement of our president. and that has made a degree in order to, to, to defend. and as a firm on the political level, traditional values and the rational society. so i think that's that should be outside of political western modernity. we need to explore more rational tradition traditional level files of the sky or creation or public c. and we need to reduce goldwaire, non western or pre modern if you want post mortar types of political sol. so we need to, to join prima donna davis postmodernity and we need to 5 to

a relative ice to make relative the western experience. the west is only part of the humanity and in spite of it, but if it be pretending to be the coal over the humanity, it is not so. so we need story, the scholar around political thought when the russia wasn't under dominating influence over the west. so that is really the challenge for us to, to rediscover or recreate this ideology that should be organic, that should, has, have, should have its historical dimension. but at the same time, the same time, it should be new, fresh, it should be creative and some way. and all that in direct refutation, all the western liberal, had gemini against open society against him. there was it gaze the

a liberal democracy that west tries to impose on everybody, but as will to throw out communism as might be and fresh as, as, because all through political theories, main political theories, all 3 of them are originated and modern west. and that sense, i agree, was come out on western mo, data, and that it is still 30 area. and we need to get out of this western type of reason to arrive. that was it. if rash and organic should holism arise from orthodox better. you ration isn't that could include the other traditional society in the and the main and the main symphony off over the over the, at the groups or the peoples and religion. so that's, that will be completely new form of i deal logy that

much glove or maybe to you ration isn't or all some, some mixture between traditional or traditionalism and social justice. and how would you say economics plays into this because at least with the soviet experience, command economics made it significant contributions to the development of russia while at the same time we saw of course, dag nation towards the end. but in terms of market economics, we saw what kind of situation russia was in back in 2014, when it was much more connected to the western financial system in the west, decided to put sanctions on it as opposed to now when these unprecedented western sanctions, once russia was far less dependent on the dollar they had far less of an effect on russia. so where, where do you see economics playing into this being? do you see a russian future more oriented towards markets or towards command economics? now, and our last decree of all our president,

the traditional way you the main traditional will you is accept that the predominance of the spirit over the matter. and that is quite russian. so that is the main main key. so economy, when you are obsessed with economy, is obliged to follow more and more of this confrontation, this competition with the other more you are engaged and that, and the 5 to all logic of matter, you will become the slave of matter and material material. the transformation you are not anymore. muster of the economy you are, you will become slave, are gone, him is so as you do more french. so sociology is said in the 20th century, we had 3 political orders in communism, liberalism and fascism common is liberalism, obsessed by call them,

and they have shown more or less impressive results. liberalism, better of communism, slightly worse, but fresh for example, was absolutely unconcerned by economy. there was no specially fresh start of special, national and socialist system of economy. and they have shown during hitler era the results are compatible and may be much better than those. those are genes obsessed with economy, so that doesn't mean that the pressure was good. absolutely. luigi one was friendship. democracy sociologist, she, she just wanted to emphasize that more you engage it, come economy as theory, as the main criteria off and the less you are prepared to

deal with real challenges. so i think that in russian ideology in russian life we need to get rid of this obsession of economies. so, and that is the way to, to make economy really said. so when it took to great logical and natural approach to solve economic problem without any dogma is without this competition with it when socialism and capitalism. so when it to get rid of the dogmatism in economy and we need to put economy under that spiritual development. so we need to, to say, 1st or full culture or rather than civilization in spangler and terms. so our, our problem is not to be engaged in this, or that are economical, a dogma when it's to talk to grand functioning society. first of all,

just basically based on justice on tradition, on the happiness of the people and, and the, all these elements are more moral, are more spiritual values then economy. and, ah, that doesn't mean we shouldn't, we should ignore economy. no, we, we should ignore economic dogmatism. if market economy works in some zone of society, let it be eve, state, gulf states involvement is a functional is, is positive. let it be as well. if there is a common po, communitarian approach in some, oh, in some are group of population let be go communes, some formal communitarian societies. so we should all get rid of any kind or for all, what are public see in economy?

what was the best economical performance in the history of the last century? we see that in the mixture. so for example, the american american strategy of mark until isn't and protectionism with free free markets in europe. that is, social social politics. almost socialism with some freedom of, of enterprises. so the balance between state and private capital is always changing. it is always relation. it is not the dogma. so we need to warn the relations relation. that's feats that would fit better, to rush and experience the rational society and that would help will help us better to solve the concrete ongoing problem. the cold war was marked by what many

historians agree was x sort of bipolar world order between the west. the capital's west and the socialist east. to what extent do you think that legacy of a bipolar world order is still relevant today? because a lot of people say that we're in a new cold war right now. what do you have to say about like multi multi polarity in the world? would you say that that they have some sort of parallels at the same time because the world does seem to be developing somehow into a more year asian camp and the western camp that has existed for a while now. so on one side, there is still going to mention of bi polarity polarity because there is one full untouched name among the 2 poles that existed before the end of the soviet union. one has disappeared and the other is here is present. so that's just the kind of a residue off

a bipolar system and the west behalves itself as if it is still in this cold bipolar world war and for consider garage her as the hair of the soviet union with a whom were units 2 to 5. so that is a kind of inertia that is continuation of that bipolar o world region. multiple arctic is emerging now emerging now. but is something different? it is not one ideology against the other. one poll against the other, their ease. totally different. a vision of a co existence, that doesn't mean necessarily war or conflict, but that doesn't mean necessary. and either a nicer piece. so it could, it depends. so multiple oddity it, this precisely the end of the by, by polarity and with the,

i may and idea that the west doesn't want to accept that in multiple oddity. that west, real not be one of the 2, but went off fuel pulse. and we would use the western claim over hedge him on it, the of universality o. o for over globalism to some concrete borders. so that is a re re proven sale is ition over the west that east precisely multiple out it, russia defense now. and it's war against a unit unipolar system. not only our allan ah status position as in dependent bull, but as well. the other poles, china, india, islamic world, latin america, africa. so that is the 1st multiple or war that is going on now in the ukraine, because that west wants it at any price to preserve and safe. it's had germany

unipolar system that is contamination of by polarity. and that is why such are also forbear such hatred for russia, it is a continuation of bipolar understanding of all over the architect or over or international relations. main problem for the west to accept that west quote b, it province over the humanity. not the sauntered. know the capital, so it is just a but it is not the whole of humanity and multiple already is about that. so fighting for multiple already are ash a fight for a right to different civilizations to affirm themselves with. it's inherent our system ovalia's that could coincide or not coincide was really western. well, so nothing universal exist in multiple edited. there is a kind of relate if bodily,

universal isms, chinese universalism, islamic universalism, rationally, originally written. and it also is an african and latin american. so there is not, not only one universalism, western modern, but there caught exist and co exist. civilizations defending they write to create their own political cultural artist system. so that is the, the meaning of that multiplicity put reality off of the civilization. and multiple r a t fights against this claim, not against the west as such, but against that claim over there west to be the model to be the unique example of the progress, all of the history of oh, and understanding of time of man, of, of technology so any civilization has its own right to ah,

to understand or to enterprise, what man is. what time is, what god, this one death is what so good and evil. ah, so death is up to civilization and there is no one unique universal model to impose on all his civilizations. that is, what is this fight in ukraine is ah ah, no one else seemed wrong. i just don't know. you will have to ship out this thing because the african and engagement it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds

apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah ah. hello and welcome to cross hock, where all things are considered on peter lavelle. why all accounts 2023 will probably be a continuation of the year. that is just ended more transformation and change more instability and uncertainty. on this edition of cross talk, we examined the likely trends for the year ahead of us.