they don't want to see a medical sewer, sewer, or a lock. they don't want to see economic agreement that linked to south thousands. so as well as long as thorn in their side. certainly we saw with been as well as able to do through internationalists, oil diplomacy and java years. but when we're bomber in 2014 implemented, these very cruel sanctions, and put been as well as both cuba onto this superficial made up list of terrorists . this is the very intention of richard nixon and henry kissinger. 973 will evolve to make the 2 lanes caught me scream when w a in that was in power. so any social is less meaning government has encouraged this type. ready wrath from washington, as it seems as it seems, daniel history continues to repeat itself, daniel shore, professor of latin american studies at the city university of new york. joining us live on new year's eve, appreciate your time and from all of us here at auto international wishing you a very happy new year. thank you. thank you. and to you as all we wish you all

the best of love and success for 2023. for the meantime, we are back soon with ah i'm african or tansy and welcome back to going under ground. 2022 has been a year dominated by the brutal proxy war in ukraine and an entire geopolitical realignment. minimized, insensitive nato nation media and celebrated across the global south. the scale of the brutality may for now be lost in the mists of the fog of war, but we know, do know that billions of dollars with weapons are being poured into ukraine. both nato and russia emphasize the humanity of their actions. so how are ethics and the

idea of humanity in war playing a part in modern conflicts, and are they, in fact capitalists? well, joining me now from yale university in new haven, connecticut to talk about transformations in the humanity of wars, is professor samuel moines. he's the chancellor kent professor law in history at yale, an author of the book humane how the united states, abandoned peace and reinvented war. thank you so much as professor moines for coming on the show. i better start than with the fact that though we don't do no in detail what lee kremlin strategy is in ukraine, a given the so progress sometimes fast progress. again, it is the fog of war. how you think the, the idea of humane war may be affecting kremlin policy? much as you've written about it affecting washington policy? well, i'm no expert, but from what i've seen, at least in the initial weeks of the war,

it seemed assist her. the russian audience really did care about the reassurances given by the kremlin that the, the fighting was humane. and that's changed it. and, and not least because of the use of, of missiles on that on wish glamour, couldn't showed more restraint at the beginning of the war. than lately, but i think that the main way, the idea of humane war is playing out is on the western side. since from the beginning, there have been a pronounced discourse of russian atrocity. and i think that's done a lot to to, to a fact the way that westerners think about the war. and i just tried to argue in my work that those are old roots to concerns about atrocity and war. the

intensity of those concerns is something new and the way that they have affected warfare is very recent. and so we don't, we're in a new situation. and wish statesmen really do care about the humanity of their wars . because global audiences expect war to be far more humanely and demand it so, so it is kind of a p r and a media element and dimension to this rather than codified human rights law as bird geneva conventions and un security council you and charter elements. while the un charter says nothing about the ways war should be fought, it tries to control aggression. and of course, of both the west and russia have engaged an illegal war in starting wars. but these other bodies of law, i think, do matter the geneva conventions,

and especially later bodies of law like the $977.00 revisions to the geneva convention, which for example, prohibit access casualties of civilians even when states target combatants. i would say that those laws do matter, but they matter because they're changing public expectations. and of course media have a lot to do with public knowledge of what's going on in the field as well as, you know, the spread of distorted understandings of what's happening in the old days. mito media with central to war frenzy, and in fact, most often communicated to an enthusiastic public for a war that brutality was going on. and nowadays, brutality is reported to horrify audiences for war. and of course,

that's measured by these laws. and so the laws still are part of the picture, but i don't think that they come 1st. they're more reflections of growing concerned for how war is far. and therefore, politicians are forced to fight differently and order different kinds of wars and they did in, in even the recent past all be it that it's kind of unprecedented the censorship of media in nato nations. this time around that goals for c g t n, the chinese channel to be banned across europe. t is band. the range in general is bad. i know your book humane talks about a seismic events like the a covering of my lie. and abu ghraib sy hersh has been a guest on this show where they are benjamin another figure that you mentioned in the peace movement of the u. s. again, kind of regular on this show as is i richard fork, been ironic that day you didn't,

you didn't mention ukraine in the book, but you did mention a russian in particular prince andrei, the character in warren peace by dall strike. just to remind us why that sir, that sir character exposes such a tension today in the midst of this ukraine war. while the count tosto, i went to war as a young man, actually in the crimea. and when he wrote war and peace, a couple of, of, of, of years later, he dramatized this new project of, of swiss origin of using a laws to make war humane. and he had one of his immortal characters prince andre reject. making war humane on the grounds, that humane war would be more tolerable for more people and in

a way obscure that the real evil, at least most of the time of going to war. now as toaster i lived on, i think he, he perfected is his argument in this regard because prince sandra, prince andrew and the novel actually suggests that war should be left brutal because then people would know what they're allowing their states to do. and i not sure we should take that view, but i do think tolstoy as he made sure it was right that every time we pressed for more humanity and warfare were incurring the risk that it will be easier to go to war and easier to sustain war as of course, both as, as of course, the parties to the ukraine war currently doing,

making it something that is seemingly interminable. yes, i mean, professor moines, i know, secretly you don't to favor prince andrei's view because you don't want ality i'm, i'm sure. but i says, i can't resist saying that there's a yale professor there that brady johnson distinguished professor at yale is none other than victoria newland. i don't know whether you meet her in the corridor. wasn't the yale university who was clearly secretly plotting in ukraine. we have the leaked phone call. is there a case for saying that the brutality is now concealed? i'm the always has been to an extent, which is why seymour hersh and takes her and had to take such pains in trying to expose what happened in my life, vietnam. but. but there's that secret brutality that goes behind this curtain of un resolutions and let alone historic conventions well, of security and secrecy. close to both the origins of war and then how is conducted

. and you're totally right that states have an interest in secrecy in keeping gory photos, in the case of me, ally, and later on to grade from the public. but it's also important to understand that once information gets out, it can end up helping statesman reset wars. and i emphasize in my work that american politicians like barack obama understood that making the war on terror, more humane, couldn't make it more sustainable. precisely because the information that you know was eventually so well publicized about detainee abuse and even torture had, hadn't, hadn't had so offended the global public and even the american public. and what barack obama did as a reset the war on terror,

by making it last brutal and promising that it would be conducted more humanely. now you raised secrecy in the origins of war. and i, i can't comment on this particular war because you haven't moved into the corridor, then i have not met her. i don't believe she's there right now. but of course she has been a central figure into democratic administrations in, in ukraine policy. and of course, the origins of this war are not simple, but i don't think we will know for many years. precisely because of the secrecy you mentioned. who said what, who authorized what? who's to blame? although clearly we wouldn't want a cent. vladimir putin from the, his illegal action of crossing a sovereign states border ah, ah, west west were in, in the, in the flagrant way. he did, especially when the,

on the eve of the invasion, couldn't himself complained about the ill, a gallery of western actions, giving a very in away persuasive litany of all the times. western government, including the american one, have gone to war illegally, irrespective of how, ah, they've gone on the site is worse. of course, they're from their perspective, it might have been military strategy. and from their perspective, it's 7. it's the uminski records are authorized in un security council resolution to, to 0. do the was violated, which gives them that excused and learned by a warfare program. i should just say, as regards what you said about obama, but much of what you write about there in the book against to factor against a bomb. i don't think is known by many in nato nation media. we say hi to 35, guantanamo prisoners. still there if, if they're watching this program as a, as we understand from lawyers actually. but i have to say that your work is avowedly disinterested in and,

and scholarly. but i did note that you used to work in the belly of the beast where power was as an intern, as you studied and as your scholarly work is progressed. and how do you look back being an intern in, in the white house? i understand you, you were there when secrecy and media manipulation was all there because it was about the, the war on you need to warn you is love you. that's right. i served as a lowly in turn, in the national security council. at the time of the bombing of belgrade and serbia, and of course there is always secrecy and in military operations and selective ways of informing the public to make your, your side look better. i do think in the aftermath of that experience, i became much more skeptical of great power,

militarism in general. and the origins of my own work are not in particular and the critique of that war. you know, with which i was associated as a youth, but much more concerned about the failure of humanity in, you know, to fulfill tolstoy a dream of a more peaceful world. and i think that is why i spend so much attention looking at the formation of the united nations in the original, the origins of the original contest between the west and the soviet union. and why it was that we've ended up with an international law that in practice exams, great powers like the united states and russia from any real controls on the initiation of war. prevent samuel mine. i'll stop you there.

more from yale university johnson. again, professor of long history after his break. ah ah, ah oh, when i want something wrong, when i just don't want you to see how these things become an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah,

welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor samuel moines. yale university chancellor, can professor of law in history and alter the book humane how the united states abandon peace and reinvented war i detect in, in your work. one key element is the bottom up way that society can change and, and transform rather than supernatural law. treaty and convention. but them because yugoslavia is iconic in the growth global south. it's certainly iconic to be ging, where their embassy, of course was bombed. in yugoslavia let alone to russia, which was supporting at serbia. do you think her then that and also your critique solve a recent critiques of putin's policy. to an extent what you're saying is he shouldn't have done this and from what their perspective is defended, the people who has come to an yet because he's undermined the peace movement in

western countries. i mean that's, that's what you're saying to do an extent. i think that's right. i mean, apart from whether it was a gross strategic error on could inspire it seems as s, ah, he, he, i'm on the basis of his very strong critique of western ill legality. it's a series of illegal wars has, has in the and added insult to injury by declaring yet another. but if for, if we're to take that to, to one extent it does sound ironic them that if the dead sign is appearing and for villas in brazil and rushes are going in to defend grants can don't yeske as, as the much of the global south, the saw seen it at the un resolution that was made, the representatives representing most of humanity were against the e. u and the u. s. arguable proxies. you're literally saying over the peace

movement in when eto countries we need to protect them and they've destroyed all the work they've done. and i'll be failed. that while the whole of the global south is now talking bricks and shang, i cooperation organization, doesn't it just mean actually the, you in the us, you know, forget them. that's what the putin action has really signaled. i think the, you know, the, the response of the global south is, is quite interesting. it's worth remembering that in the beginning there, there was a near universal condemnation by the general assembly of any annexation us war. but you're, you're entirely right that we should ponder and the, the, the response of the global how, which i read a little differently. i think it reflects a pox on both their houses and just fatigue with selective righteousness. and it really testifies to our collective failure globally to build

a security architecture that would be a last hostage to taking size amongst these squabbling great powers, each with their own gray power agenda. now what that would look like, i think, in more productive actual terms is thinking about a way in which there could be multi lateral solutions. in the case of, you know, the, the, the eastern provinces of ukraine and some kind of governance that didn't involve america or nato and russia, you know, getting control of these lands. but the kinds of things that have been proposed for other disputed territorial situations like palestine. and so i think we do need to think about in at least the long term about how the global south can really push us

to reform the un security council empower the general assembly and really the united nations more broadly for the sake of a piece that is going to elude us as long as we're forced to pick size between great hours. or in fact, is that never really going to happen over see because the united states holds the cods there, the un that god is in new york, and is the global south now making its own arrangements, leaving the dollar for instance, and making massive deals in the wake of the invasion of ukraine. so seismic an event was it, and just forgetting about it. and as for all those human rights organizations, it was seen as partisan, no matter how much of the good work, amnesty international human rights watch, whatever have done their alliance is and links to state to, to washington. it's disposable and it suits those in elite power in the global south, but more generally, a feeling that this is the end of the us. emma. well,

is there a couple things to say? and in response to that, really interesting question. why one is just that there's a promising evolution in, in the non governmental sector. in response to this war, ice critique vast sector and my were for merely monitoring how wars are conducted once they start in the absence of any commitment to peace mobilization. but more broadly, of course, you're right that the united nations reform isn't the only game in town. and, but it, while gooden is right about one thing, and in a recent speech that this war is about whether and who accepts the passing of a unilateral a unify unipolar world. we don't know the shape of a multi polar world in the exact institutions that ought to prevail. of course, a you, a multi polar world could be worse for humanity rather than better. ah,

but it could be better than the the unit polar world we've experienced in the last 25 years. and i think it's an open question exactly whether it's the un or some other set of institutions to be built or rebuilt in the name of progress apiece. well, one response, arguably as this increased rhetorical attack, if not warship or presence against china very much so that, that seems to be a one big response from washington. that's completely true. and it's very easy to see that for all there, the hatred of, of western lead for donald trump base, they followed him really and declaring a new era confrontation with china and really behind the ukraine war which

shouldn't be treated as a side show is, is this much larger specter of a new cold war. wish america and the west generally seems to be initiating against china. and i think if that happens, it will make our days a local east. european war, seen seem relatively happy because the original cold war, global scale with most of the damage and violence and visited outside europe was, was disastrous. and yet, it seems as if the ukraine war is in part for all of this local significance, part of the kind of global reset of the wes after some difficult years if it's inspired a lot of self confidence among western leaves that they should resist the passing

of uno polarity and even confront china to ensure that you know, polarity remain alive and well on that i think is, is chilling because that kind of dollar costly has not gone well in the past. well, if the average work doesn't have much time to look at the guy, the things you do as a scholar, especially in the media landscape in nature, nations which as i say is censored. as we so often say on this program, julian assigned you did expose lots of secrets is, according to the u. n. being tortured in britain. what's it like as a scholar to work in this field? knowing that there are vested interests, and i know you, you make the point in your work that you try to be as independent as you can. given that there are vested interests in the field, you're in trying to pressure, and that not be as disinterested as they might appear to be calling for that,

that new war on china, which, you know, to some is already the richest country in the world by g d, p purchasing power parity i think that there are, there is a space in various countries for critiquing any new cold war. and i think there's a substantial body of opinion that arose roughly over the years of barack obama, the presidency. and especially donald trump's, that these great power wars ought to be resisted by a new kind of progressive internationalism. and it's not for nothing that the hash tag and list wars became. so has your monarch during trumps administration that he himself began using it before he was booted off

to wear? and i think the clearest evidence for that is that job vine in for all of his own hawkish asked, was compelled to choose to complete trumps withdrawl from afghanistan. but he didn't go into syria, of course, he's in the area right now. i mean, it's a very complex picture because in the speeches defending the afghan withdrawal bite and promise and the continuation of the war on terror in the more secretive mode with arm drones and special forces that had actually transformed it already starting. and the later years of george w bush's presidency, and there are, there was a lot of other, more military choices under biden. but my, my point is really about the rise of

a kind of public exhaustion with endless war before ukraine changed everything. yeah, just just kindly and where that goes. i know you talk about j g r o being great. i'd love one of the protagonists. ratner, a prominent that he wore lawyer during the was on, on terra across, give ira ended up in moscow as in badging. isn't that than a new fight, the global fight with these great powers, but this time with the entire global south, much more in a much more sophisticated fashion than it was during the cold war, or even in the non line movement. a founded in indonesia. i think we are at the beginning with which really the global south utterly have it all once again of an attempt to imagine a progressive international movement. and it wouldn't just be concerned with war and peace, but also with distributional justice in

a world that is still incredibly unequal and, and which oligarchs rule and lots of places in including my country. so what, what exactly the form of that progressive international movement that seem to be emerging and, and i think will continue to do so. it remain so hate to me. i think that in my defense because we're in the earliest days is reimbursement and away it, it, it, it the, the demise of a unit polar moment does allow for some excitement about new alternatives. now what the relationship of that progressive movement is to grade pro hours, it will remain to be determined. i think it should be much more skeptical of siding with one or another great power than was the case during the cold war, which also allow for neutral est alternatives and global southern alternatives that

tried to sidestep the cold war confrontation. professor samuel moines. thank you, and that's it for the show will be back next week with another brand new episode. but until then you can still keep in touch. why will a social media, if it's not sensitive in your country, but you can always head to the channel going, undergoing tv on rumbled com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. so you very soon, ah, ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy plantation, let it be an arms race is on very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk

a a headlines right now on our team international as russia rings in the new year with president vladimir putin delivering his traditional midnight speech to the nation. and other parts of the world, of course, welcoming in 2043 with spectacular fireworks displays and mass celebration with although apart from the celebrations, we understand blasts are reported across you. right. and explosions have been seen in the nation's capital hotel, dominated unconfirmed report saying that hotel has been housing, foreign, military advises as we understand here at our team or.