[000:00:00;00] ah, i'm african retents, ian, welcome back to going under ground 2022 has been a year dominated by the brutal proxy war in ukraine and an entire geopolitical realignment, minimized, insensitive nato nation media and celebrated across the global south. the scale of the brutality may for now be lost in the midst of the fog of war, but we know, do know that billions of dollars worth of weapons are being poured into ukraine. both nato and russia emphasize the humanity of their actions. so how are ethics and the idea of humanity in war playing a part in modern conflicts, and are they, in fact, catalysts? well, joining me now from yale university in new haven, connecticut to talk about transformations in the humanity of wars,

is professor samuel moines. he's the chancellor kent professor law in history at yale, an author of the book humane how the united states, abandoned peace and reinvented war. thank you so much. i professor moines for coming on the show. i better start than with the fact that though we don't know in detail what lee kremlin strategy is in ukraine, a given the so progress sometimes fast progress. again, it is the fog of war. how you think the, the idea of humane war may be affecting kremlin policy? much as you've written about it affecting washington policy? well, i'm no expert, but from what i've seen, at least in the initial weeks of the war, it seemed as if the russian audience really did care about the reassurances given by the kremlin that the fighting was humane.

and that's changed it and, and not least because of the use of, of missiles on that on wish vladimir putin showed more restraint at the beginning of the war than lately. but i think that the main way, the idea of humane war is playing out is on the western side. since from the beginning, there have been a pronounced discourse of russian atrocity. and i think that's done a lot to to, to affect the way that westerners think about the war. and i just tried to argue in my work that though they're old roots to concerns about atrocity and war, the intensity of those concerns is something new. and the way that they have

affected warfare is very recent. and so we don't, we're in a new situation and which states men really do care about the humanity of their wars. because global audiences expect war to be far more humanely and demand it so. so it is kind of p o and a media element and dimension to this rather than codified human rights law as, but geneva conventions and un security council un charter elements. well, the un charter says nothing about the ways war should be fought. it tries to control aggression and of course of both the west and russia have engaged an illegal war in starting wars. but these other bodies of law, i think, do matter the geneva conventions, and especially later bodies of law like the $977.00 revisions to the geneva convention, which for example,

prohibit access casualties of civilians even when states target combatants. i would say that those laws do matter, but they matter because they're changing public expectations. and of course media have a lot to do with public knowledge of what's going on in the field as well as, you know, the spread of distorted understandings of what's happening in the old days, the media media with central to war frenzy. and in fact, most often communicated to an enthusiastic public for a war, that brutality was going on. and nowadays, brutality is reported to horrify audiences for war. and of course, that's measured by these laws. and so the laws still are part of the picture,

but i don't think that they come 1st. they're more reflections of growing concerned for how war is far. and therefore, politicians are forced to fight differently and order different kinds of wars and they did in, in even the recent past all be it that it's kind of unprecedented the censorship of media in nato nations. this time around that goals for c g t n, the chinese channel to be banned across europe. t is band. the range in general is bad. i know your book humane talks about ab, seismic events like the a covering of my lie. and abu ghraib sy hersh has been a guest on this show. madame benjamin, another figure that you mentioned in the peace movement of the u. s. again, kind of regular on this show as is a richard fork, been ironic that day you didn't. you didn't mention ukraine in the book, but you did mention a russian in particular. prince andrei,

the character in worn piece by tall, straight, just to remind us why that sir, that sir character exposes such a tension. today, in the midst of this ukraine will while the count also, i went to war as a young man, actually in the crimea. and when he wrote war and peace, a couple of, of, of, of years later, he dramatized this new project of, of swiss origin of using a laws to make war humane. and he had one of his immortal characters prince andre reject. making war humane on the grounds, that humane war would be more tolerable for more people and in a way obscure that the real evil,

at least most of the time of going to war. now, as told story, lived on, i think he, she perfected is his argument in this regard because prince sandra preference, andrew, and the novel actually suggests that war should be left brutal because then people would know what they're allowing their states to do. and, and i, i'm not sure we should take that view, but i do think tolstoy as he matured was right. that every time we pressed for more humanity and warfare were incurring the risk of that, it will be easier to go to war and easier to sustain war. as of course, both as, as of course, the parties to the ukraine war currently doing, making it something that is seemingly interminable. yes, i mean, professor moines, i know secretly you don't to favor prince andrei's view because you don't want

retaliatory. i'm sure, but i says, i can't resist saying that there's a new yale professor there that brady johnson distinguished professor at yale is none other than victoria newland. i don't know whether you meet her in the corridor . was the yale university who was clearly secretly plotting in ukraine. we have the leaked phone call. is there a case for saying that the brutality is now concealed? there always has been to an extent, which is why seymour hersh and takes her and had to take such pains in trying to expose what happened in my life, vietnam. but. but there's that secret brutality that goes behind this curtain of un resolutions and let alone historic conventions. well, security and secrecy, close both of the origins of war and then how it's conducted. and you're totally right. the states have an interest in secrecy in keeping gory photos, in the case of me,

ally and later abo grade from the public. but it's also important to understand that once information gets out, it can end up helping state men reset wars. and i emphasize in my work that american politicians like brock obama understood that making the war on terror, more humane, couldn't make it more sustainable. precisely because the information that you know was eventually so well publicized about detainee abuse and even torture had, hadn't, hadn't had so offended the global public and even the american public. and what brock obama did as a reset the war on terror, by making it less brutal and promising that it would be conducted more humanely. now you raised secrecy in the origins of war. and i can't

comment on this particular war because you haven't met you linda, the corridor, then i have not met her. i don't believe she's serving right now. but of course she has been a central figure into democratic administrations in ukraine policy. and of course, the origins of this war are not simple, but i don't think we will know for many years. precisely because of the secrecy you mentioned. who said what, who authorized what, who's to blame? although clearly we wouldn't want a lot of food and he from his illegal action of crossing a sovereign states the border ah, ah, west west went in and in the flagrant way he did, especially when they, on the eve of the invasion, couldn't himself complained about the illegality of western actions, giving a very, in a way, persuasive litany of all the times. western government,

including the american one, have gone to war, illegally irrespective of how, ah, a days gone on to say is worse. of course, that from their perspective, it might have been military strategy. and from their perspective, it's 7. it's the uminski chords authorized in un security council resolution due to 02 that was violated, which gives them that excused and learned by a warfare program. i should just say, as regards what you said about obama, but much of what you write about there in the book against de facto against obama. i don't think is known by many in nato nation media. we say hi to 35. guantanamo prisoners still live. if they're watching this program as a, as we understand from lawyers actually. but i have to say that your work is avowedly disinterested in and, and scholarly. but i did note that you used to work in the belly of the beast where power was as an intern,

as you've studied and as your scholarly work is progressed. and how do you look back being an intern in, in the white house? i understand you, you were there when secrecy and media manipulation was all there because it was about the, the war on you need to warn you cas lava. that's right. i served as a lowly in turn, in the national security council at the time of the bombing of belgrade and serbia . and of course, there is always secrecy and in military operations and still active a ways of informing the public to make your, your side look better. i do think in the aftermath of that experience, i became much more skeptical of great power, militarism in general. and the origins of my own work are not in

particular and the critique of, of that war, you know, with which i was, you know, associated as a youth, but much more concerned about the failure of humanity in, you know, to fulfill tolstoy dream of a more peaceful world, and i think that is why i spend so much attention looking at the formation of the united nations in, you know, the original, the origin was the original contest between the west and the soviet union. and why it was that we've ended up with an international law that in practice exams the great powers of like the united states and russia from any real controls on the initiation of war. prevent samuel mine. i'll stop you there. more from yale university johnson can professor of law and history after this break . ah

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ah ah, welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with professor samuel moines. yale university chancellor, kent, professor of law in history and alter the book humane how the united states abandon peace and reinvented war i detect in, in your work. one key element is the bottom up way that society can change and, and transform rather than supernatural law. treaty and convention, but them because yugoslavia is iconic in the growth global south. it's certainly iconic to be ging, where their embassy of course was bombed in yugoslavia, let alone to russia, which was supporting at serbia. do you think good then that and also your critique solve a recent critiques of putin's policy. to an extent what you're saying is he shouldn't have done this and from what their perspective is defended,

the people who has come to an yet because he's undermined the peace movement in western countries. i mean that's, that's what you're saying to do an extent. i think that's right. i mean, i mean, apart from whether it was a gross strategic error on could inspire. it seems as this, ah, he, he, on, on the basis of his very strong critique of western illegality, a series of illegal wars has, has in the and added insult to injury by declaring yet another. but if a, if, if we're to take that her to one extent, it does sound ironic then that if the dead sign is appearing and for villas in brazil and rushes are going in to defend lans can don't. yes, as, as the much of the global south, the saw seen it at the un resolution that was made,

the representatives representing most of humanity were against the e. u and the u. s. arguable proxies. you're literally saying over the peace movement in when eto countries we need to protect them and they've destroyed all the work they've done. and i'll be failed. that while the whole of the global south is now talking bricks and chang, i cooperation organization. doesn't it just mean actually the, you in the us, you know, forget them. that's what the putin action has really signaled. i think the, you know, the, the response of the global south is, is quite interesting. it's worth remembering that in the beginning there, there was a near universal condemnation by the general assembly of any annexation us war. but you're, you're entirely right that we should ponder the, the, the response of the global, which i read a little differently. i think it reflects

a pox on both their houses and just fatigue with selective righteousness. and it really testifies to our collective failure globally to build a security architecture that would be a last hostage to taking size. amongst these squabbling great powers, each with their own gray power agenda. now what that would look like, i think in more productive practical terms, is thinking about a way in which there could be multilateral solutions. in the case of, you know, the, the eastern provinces of ukraine and some kind of governance that didn't involve america or nato and russia, you know, getting control of these lands. but the kinds of things that have been proposed for

other disputed territorial situations like palestine. and so i think we do need to think about in at least the long term about how the global south can really push us to reform the un security council empower the general assembly and really the united nations more broadly for the sake of a piece that is going to elude us as long as we're forced to pick size between great hours. or in fact, is that never really going to happen over say, because the united states holds the cods there, the un that god is in new york, and is the global south now making its own arrangements, leaving the dollar for instance, and making massive deals in the wake of the invasion of ukraine. so seismic an event was it, and just forgetting about it. and as for all those human rights organizations that was seen as part is an no matter how much of the good work and to see the natural human rights watch. whatever have done their alliance isn't links to state to

washington. it's disposed off and it suits those in elite power in the global south . but more generally, a feeling that this is the end of the u. s. m, by. well, is there a couple things to say and in response to that, really interesting question. i want one is just that there's a promising evolution in the non governmental sector. in response to this war, i've critique vast sector and my were for merely monitoring how wars are conducted once they start in the absence of any commitment to peace mobilization. but more broadly, of course, you're right that the united nations reform isn't the only game in town. but it, while gooden is right about one thing, and in a recent speech that this war is about whether and who excess, the passing of a unilateral a unify unipolar world. we don't know the shape of

a multi polar world in the exact institutions that ought to prevail. of course, a you, a multi polar world could be worse for humanity rather than better. but it could be better than the the unit polar world we've experienced in the last 25 years. and i think it's an open question exactly, whether it's the un or some other set of institutions to be built or rebuilt in the name of progress in peace. well, one response, arguably as this increased rhetorical attack, if not warship or presence against china very much so that, that seems to be a one big response from washington. that's completely true. and it's very easy to see that for all there, the hatred of, of western a lead for donald trump, they've, they followed him really and declaring

a new era confrontation with china and really behind the ukraine war which shouldn't be treated as a side show is, is this much larger specter of a new cold war. wish america and the west generally seem to be initiating against china. and i think if that happens, it will make our days a local east. european war, seen seem relatively happy because the original called more global scale with most of the damage and violence visited outside europe was, was disastrous. and yet, it seems as if the ukraine war is in part for all of this local, significant part of the kind of global reset of the west.

after some difficult years it's, it's inspired a lot of self confidence among western leaves that they should resist the passing of unit larry and even confront china to ensure that, you know, polarity remains alive and well on that i think is, is chilling because that kind of dollar costly has not gone well in the past. well, if the average worker doesn't have much time to look at the guy, the things you do as a scholar, especially in the media landscape in nature, nations which as i say is censored, as we so often say on this program. julian sondra did expose lots of secrets is, according to the u. n. being tortured in britain. what's it like as a scholar to work in this field? knowing that there are vested interests, and i know you, you make the point in your work that you try to be as independent as you can. given

that there are vested interests in the field, you're in trying to pressure, and that not be as disinterested as they might appear to be calling for that, that new war on china, which, you know, to, to, some is already the richest country in the world by g d p purchasing power parity i think that there, there is a space in various countries for critiquing any new cold war. and i think there is a substantial body of opinion that arose roughly over the years of iraq obama's presidency. and especially donald trump's, that these great power wars ought to be resisted by a new kind of progressive internationalism. and it's not for nothing that

the hash tag and list wars became. so has your monarch during trumps administration that he himself began using it before he was booted off to where? and i think the clearest evidence for that is that job vine in for all of his own hawkish ass, was compelled to choose to complete trumps withdrawal from afghanistan. but he didn't go into syria, of course he's, it is right now. i mean, it's a very complex picture because in the speeches defending the afghan withdrawal bite and promised that continuation of the war on terror in the more secretive mode with arm drones and special forces that had actually transformed it already starting and the later years. so george w bush's presidency, and there are,

there was a lot of other, more military choices under biden. but my, my point is really about the rise of a kind of public exhaustion with an endless war before ukraine changed everything. yeah, just just finally where that goes. i know you talk about j g r o being great. i'd love one of the protagonists rattan marie prominent that he wore lawyer during the was on on terra of course, give ira and it up in moscow as in beijing. isn't that than a new fight the global fight with these great powers. but this time with the entire global south, much more in a much more sophisticated fashion than it was during the cold war or even in the non line movement. a founded in indonesia. i think we are at the beginning with which really the global south utterly have it all once again of an attempt to imagine

a progressive international movement. and it wouldn't just be concerned with warren peace, but also with distributional justice in a world that is still incredibly unequal and, and which oligarchs rule and lots of places in including my country. so what, what exactly the form of that progressive international movement that seem to be emerging and, and i think will continue to do so. it remain so hate to me. i think that in my defense because we're in the earliest days is reimbursement and away it, it, it, it the, the, the demise of a unit polar moment does allow for some excitement about new alternatives. now what the relationship of that progressive movement is to grade pro hours, it will remain to be determined. i think it should be much more skeptical of siding

with one or another great power than was the case during the cold war, which also allow for neutral est alternatives and global southern alternatives that tried to sidestep the cold war confrontation. professor samuel moines. thank you, and that's it for the show will be back next week with another brand new episode. but until then, you can still keep in touch my will of social media if it's not sensitive in your country, but you can always head to the channel going under guarantee on rumbled com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. so you very soon, ah ah, ah, will never be a victory for russia. with a korean war is a proxy war. this is

a war between russia and the united states. muslim are made, it comes to not shooting the min, calling you doin, america for sure, and you're not in europe. engage in conflict with russian for use. american forces or hearing, defend nato allies with evidence that nato escalates even more than discussion. military operations become a war with some of the rules that demonstrate one of those. you move much. i see it that i see your to us. thank you. costliest. go to me with so i you sleep issue and you can you stuff to with almost them. let's see where you live at home. you're still foolish or in your sewage. narrow sneak of the girl. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation,

let it be an arms race group is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with why in that that outset i seen ok a bruce to look at machine. you must quiz up of them or maybe not. hello me by me. look at my t v a purchase must least delegate or mine. i just fancy a family or the girls of silly or to see if you got it or see any of these. sammy am sick with finesse which we're going to leave. but to shall keep poly garrity with ukraine will remain unshakable from day one on europe has stood at ukraine's side with weapons with funds and with