well, we have to manage it in a way in which its impact on my economy is not traumatic. doc, doc, freedom of choice should exist for other people as well. countries in europe and the west and the, and i just chose focus on why don't they allow iranian oil to come into the market . why don't the allow manager know oil to come into the mac? i mean, they've squeezed every other source of oil. we have and then say, okay guys, you must not go into the market and get the best deal for your people. i don't think that's very fair to pro. you could ask, why would anybody naisha, trust europe on anything at all? and europe has to grow out of the mindset that europe's problems are. there was problems, but there was, problems are not problems. discussing the current state of u. s. europe relations. i mean, the backdrop of the ukraine conflict is cross talk. next catch, peter and gas for there are 1st, i think i'll be your ride with

ah, ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, by joining washington's ukraine proxy war against russia. europe has made an irreversible choice. it is consigned itself to being a minor regional power in a multi polar world. cutting itself up from russia. europe has all but assured it will be overly dependent on the united states. that dependency will be costly. ah,

cross sucking europe's choice. i'm joined by my guess. i see the 1st cost in london . he is professor of international relations at the university of east london as well as editor of the journal of balkan and near eastern studies in north florida. we have tom, we one go, he is publisher of gold, goats and guns, blog, and newsletter, and in prague we have brad blankenship. he is a com this it c g t n, a freelance reporter shinla as well as an r t contributor or a gentleman cross i girls in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want and i will appreciate tom. let me go to you 1st in north florida. did i overstate my introduction that europe is consigning itself to be a regional minor regional power in a multi polar world? it's getting pretty bleak for the european future. i would say your thoughts, tom? yeah, i would agree with you on that, peter. the, the issue for europe is that it's very clear that the, that russia is done with them and that's

a bigger issue. and then knowing that this, this oil price has gone into place. the, the funny part now is that, you know, the headlines are all being written that russia is going to have to cut production . and this is going to hurt their money. they're, they're the bottom line, the bubble bar, and it's always framed in terms of how bad it is for russia. but nobody actually talks about whether food has actually game plan for this, whether it has now a strategic move. cuz as far as i'm concerned, after the, the recent drawn strikes inside russia, we're looking at the de facto start for a major or kinetic war. and if i'm prudent, i'm not selling oil under any circumstances, to my enemies. okay, to see, let's say in london, basically the same question here because i like how what, what tom said in the beginning of his answers that, you know, the, the, the russians have had it with the europeans. ok. obviously in western media, it's always framed in a very the opposite way here. really? tom's absolutely. right. i mean, they need reliable partners. europe has shown itself to be unreliable,

particularly in energy. we had former chance. merkel come out and basically say, yeah, the min scope processes were just deploy, they're showing their hand, they're showing their, i'm sorry, they're really gross this on it's dishonesty. the russians are done with them. ok, now the euro pass to pay the price. go ahead in london. yes, thank. i don't disagree with what i heard, especially with seduction to those who are what tom said. what i would like just give could be for packing that in this discussion with in the triangle between us, europe and russia. has really ever been you open independent political actor in global affairs. i doubt it was always dependent on the united states title in even the production of the year, or was pretty much a project encouraged by the united states. so this

a core core relationship between 0 and the united states, very strong ally in the sense of the world. and then so what that invest in this is always been strong. back on all the united states, those exactly united states was always the bill was 6. hello, russia. from that project, i mentioned the 2nd since the end of the, of the 2nd world war that was the united states project with russia from european past. so that this is, my knowledge is correct. i think that russia despise all the prize. stop by we can start. dorothy was russia. she'd never stop talking to europe. never. that's my, that's my, my, my understanding of jason in particular. now in peter's, in which globalization, since, as we know it seems to be at the end or after 9,

we need to fax, re signer. in this war you're getting way ahead of me. it's on my checklist of questions, right? you're going to get great minds. think alike. ok. brad basically the same question, but, you know, bradley, but it says that, you know, russian needs to keep talking to europe. but i mean if europe wants to control the conversation, what is the point of having a conversation? ok. i mean, it has to be a 2 way street. it's not that way. right now. i don't think it's going to be that way for a very, very long time. go ahead, brad. you know, i can see that that's true because, you know, i think that there is, there is this kind of been a desire from people within europe to be politically economists, even though their entire political system do the you is been beholden to the united states. but at the same time, the politicians here lack the courage to stand up to washington,

even though they know that washington is undermining their interests. but ironically, the same time, these politicians, these pro, you pro western politicians that are putting your down this path. they don't really have any leverage here. i mean, there's kind of this running joke now in europe that we're going to be, you know, like a summer holiday destination for the chinese in the americans because of the industry here is going to be completely got it. and without cheap russian energy industry in central europe in germany is completely screwed. i mean, you know, when, when you look at central banks all over the world use energy, you use energy usage as the primary predictor of economic growth. and we've seen that the demand for energy has gone down. and the same time you politicians are saying, this is a positive thing that we're, you know, building up our gas supplies, in case russia hall, the flow of energy to euro. but that's a bad thing. that means that economic growth here is going to go down. that means

we're going to be in a recession for years, if not decades, potentially without, you know, cheap brush energy that we can use for industry here. and i don't see that these politicians have any leverage, and i think that this is going to usher in just the industrialization of europe as a result. well, again, you have great minds think alike that was going to be my question for tom, is this, is this a, an intentional plan to de industrialized europe on the part of the americans? tom, i don't think it's the americans solely. that's doing this is the, this is the great heresy. on my part, i'm sorry, as an american, i see the old colonial hand of europe desperately trying to hold sway over the way they run. they use us as the tip of the spear i, i really think that this whole thing is ideologically driven. i, the europeans, they're the ones out there screaming about european values and democracy. we have to save democracy about destroying it and all the rest of the day. if you look at people like vandalay and michelle and barrel, and the rest of them, they're all ideologues for this thing in the americans are simply, they're cynical,

ground troops and i, and that's the way i see this. and i and it's almost impossible to get me off of this point despite that it's very important that we stop just framing all of this is oh, look at the evil americans pushing you with. i mean because i feel like it's for it's for caitlin. i was absolutely, i tell you this is important in europe is absolutely. um they're, they're lock step with the european with this they want this war as much as everybody else. okay. when, who blew up the pipelines, then the sealants. okay. i mean, obviously the us benefited greatly from that at the kasha germans in the cost of europeans would in law. and i mean, let me go to our get, let me go to my guess line is in the hang on. hang sermons were tom dominic and the germans went along with him because the german green he wants to do a let me go to my guest in london. basil is what do you think about that because it gave the americans enormous leverage. but, but having those,

having those pipelines blow up, go ahead in london to actually move very a winner of this world to the united states. because if you increase it on your blog to compete with germany, from, from, from russia and oil and gas, and well, by the same time, the united states can protect itself from integration and subsidizes. it's called making its companies more competitive witness. they 430000000000, the face and reduction. i mean, united states is very much a consensus, actually always was no disengage european energy policy from from rash circle. every european bio exposed to berlin g, which is not even enough. that's why, that's why a russian government continue continue to be found. although they kept it now, they want to cover the price, but even this is not, not, i don't want to miss later on. and russia has many alternatives that,

but my nice point, i think he should be taken on board. why? because it depends on what kinds of solution we want on here. what do you want an american solution? what do you want a solution which is marked by the found by europeans and russians and chinese, you want a european radio solution or in america so. so that's the key question. right? that's a very interesting question. we'd like to feel that go ahead. yeah, i mean, you know, i, i think that we, you know, the question of whether or not the europeans or the americans or whoever is running to show it, it's for sure the americans, i mean, you know, that's definitely true that the europeans, i mean, that america is definitely a product of the colonial listening peer listen to all of these that immersion europe better indigenous to this company here. but the, but the united states is,

is the crystallization about, i mean like not these, said that the greatest moment and in the history of white powers, the creation of united states of america. everything that is wicked about the west is, is, is ramping in washington. and the solution that they're putting forward is, is everything that's evil and dastardly about the west. that's the solution that putting forward it's domination in joe biden gives a speech a t s m c. the new headquarters that so being an added states and says that we're putting out american products, this is not just a signal to the chinese, you know, that there is a trade war against china. this is also talking about south korea, talking about japan. this is talking about europe, especially, you know, the di, industrialization of europe will benefit america with, as the other guests mentioned the, the inflation act. yeah. you know, the united states is setting themselves up to benefit greatly from the industrialization europe and the death. that's going to come on this continent here,

even though supposedly we're lock step, supposedly we are equal partners with the americans. but that's not true. well, i mean the white one side and trying on guy usa gone guys, i have to, i have to go to a break gentlemen. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on europe's joint. stay with our team, the ah, ah ah

. ah needs to come to the russian state will never be outside as i'm turning the no santini div asking him the knocking also i need it within the 55 with will man in the european union. the kremlin. ca yep. machine. the state on crush up to date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest,

and with a welcome back to cross stop. were all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you were discussing europe's choice. ah hey, this got back to tom in north florida. it's already been brought up in this further and i think it's really worth talking about more is a we experiencing the end of globalization as we've understood it for the last half century. because it seems to me that with this gambit that the u. s. is a playing visa v, russia, and using the proxy war in kit in ukraine, is that the us wants to go on its own controlled globalization,

which europe would be part of. and there'll be other globalization of china we can talk about as well. it seems to me that there is a parting of the waters as it were, go ahead. tom and north florida. i agree with all that. i also think, oh, most of that i, when i really think is going on here, don't get me wrong. i'm not trying to absolve the americans for their part in what's happening out here. it's clear that that's what's going on. i just don't want anybody to, to think that europe didn't make a conscious choice here. that these, that the perceived weakness of european leaders is as being subordinate or vassals to the eyes. it's, it's just nonsense. it doesn't, it's not real. so when you look at what's happening, but i think is happening is very clearly that there are forces within the united states or that are working to try and save what's left of what's been hauled out over here. while others are still trying to sell it out, i think the by the ministration is trying to sell it out. i think we're, we've seen a push by the federal reserve in the near sand, near money center banks in order to stop that process really somewhat. and we see

with the end of globalization, with the clear end of the dollar reserve standard on the horizon, there is a breaking of the system and europe is going to be left in the dust. and it's in geo politics. arono allies are only interest and as far as i'm concerned, you install a fungus like biden, for the purposes of doing, of tax normalization with europe to your ruinous tax policy. energy policy that's in st. lockstep with cop 27 and all that stuff. like at the end of the day, i don't see the bi demonstrations working for the united states. and i think this is part of the, the real disconnect here. and that's the issue for me and the, and i see all of these, these, these things happening. i don't disagree with that, but the yes on the big trends, i just don't think that the americans are the sole evil empire here. i think that's a very, that's a very dangerous narrative and letting the europeans off the hook for your complicity in this boost. they want to do this, the destruction, the more class in your is not a bug. it's not a bug created by the americans. it's

a feature of what, what europe wants to do to transform itself into the next version of the ussr. because that's what the e was becoming. well, i mean, democratic poet, bureau ed, i know, been traveling. i absolutely agree with that here. but one thing if i go back to our guests in london, i mean there's one commonality here and we know who, who is a top of the totem pole. we can all discuss that and killer all blue in the face. but they do have one thing in common is ideology. they're all ideologically possessed. is neil liberal ideology. that is one thing that they all have in common here. and it's disastrous for middle class is all across the western world. go ahead in london. ok. yes. a look i, i can say i disagree with who are the head, but he said it's important that we get our priorities right. who is the dominant howard today in the global system in the west european union or the united states

looking it doesn't look even qualify for the call. the state is not, doesn't have federal sector, has some, some primitive federal structures, but it doesn't have a few. some unity, there is no even a union of the banking sector after the massive or biking crisis. we have the leaders in crisis joke. european union can be very well defined us international organization as a bit more time on the, on the nation. so we don't, we don't deal here with taking the unified actor that should be taken away. that's so crucial. it is so, so crucial to understand that nathan, institutionalized, the dependency of europe from the united states, the boys hear their voice. the peons have is pretty much a voice of the elite of utopian business that is with the lips of united states business interests and also taking it back on security security medicines. so do

not be surprised if i tell you that so many splits that are within your peer carly european commission and solely just no one wants. that's why i keep saying, keep talking to your peers. if you don't want to play the u. s. game of excluding russia from european offense, russia should not be excluded from. well, ok, but let's see, once i, you know, who is excluding home here in europe that is excluding russia. ok. not the other way around. ok. well, you know, and, and, and it came to a finer point here. as you've already said on this program. russian energy is still going to europe. ok. they didn't cut it off. it's a europeans that are cutting off russian energy here. let me go to brian. he'll let me go to brad in prague here. you know, one of the things that we're hearing is that the, the, the americans want the, the europeans to go along with their policies against china. that's not going to go down very well in europe. brad. yeah, actually i just wrote

a piece about this and in fact, you know, you bind people, i just, the bro even have the courage to say that european countries don't want to have to choose between beijing and washington. and that's because it's just in their plain self interest. i mean, but it paging the china has a lot to offer the european union trying to consumer market within the next decade will be bigger than the united states. and they are hungry for european goods. i mean, as long as those are cheap and not, you know, completely screwed on price because irrational energy is not accessible to the market of course. but, you know, there's, there's a lot of fruitful cooperation there. and i think there's a lot of nato alice not locked up on this. i think i would like to come in with the other guess that i think we also definitely have to be very crystal clear that europe is budding out russia, but that is to be had to be american. i mean, they have tens of thousands of troops here. they spy on european politics, and these are demonstrated will fax. we know that you can walk out your door here

in europe and you see it, they are colonizing europe. call europe is a vassal state, the united states, the you, it's not a country. this is disjointed. countries that are being forced against each other. and just as you know, the globalization has created a natural relationship between russia and the you integrating both of these economies. i think that there is a natural relationship between the russian people and people in europe. here, there is a natural political relationship just as globalization has been fruitful for both sides in russian energy creating europe's industrial base. i believe that the russian people are inextricably connected to people here in europe, not least because they are european of course, you know, i think that we have to be clear that it's washington doing this. and i think that russia should continue to engage in europe because russia needs to be a political actor in europe. and that's also because the united it part of its grand strategy is to force it to compete with china by pushing it out of europe,

forcing it to be an asian power enforcing china and russia to compete against each other. perhaps, you know, breaking their strategic co operation, which would be detrimental to the world. the strategic cooperation between russian, china is so important in keeping this multi portal polar world, emerging multiple world order together. one that is against american hedge money and that is so important. okay tom yeah, i saw you nodding your head there. you are in agreement. go ahead tom. i agree that i agree that russia and china need to be, than they need the same walks up with one another and, and in the way that nathan bride to say, tells me that, that, that's not going to happen. what they just like moved to strategic palmer's across to each other's air basis for hi say nothing. the u. s. is doing is stopping it. they're trying desperately to drive a wedge. that's what policy going to taiwan was of as what the chips act was about . and i, i get that, but understand that you listen, sitting in prague,

you cannot see what's happening here in the united states, which is our institutions are being destroyed from within, from foreign powers. and it's very obvious, none of these people work for the united states. they are all trying to normalize our or even make worse, our ability to handle capital and make it handle capital worse than they already handle it in europe. ok, because capital flows were capital was treated best. and right now it's still treated best. buy the united states 21 percent corporate tax rate versus a 20 percent 26 percent france they want, but buying wants to raise it to $28.00. now why would he want to do that? if he's actually acting in the americans, are american interests? he's not ok, none of this is about keeping the right nice states alive. this is about this, this is, am i literally breaking up the united states and too many people are actually going to tear this and this is go and this is a bad idea. not that i'm a huge fan of the united states in any way, manner, shape or form. but all of these things are being driven, as peter mentioned, as by ideologically possess, people who believe that we can move to

a different type of system. ok, and it's not necessarily just the americans driving this. there are it is, it is at the end of the day whether we are going to have public formation of cap, public capital formation or private capital formation. and there are forces within the u. s. that still believe in private capital formation and the people at the top of our political system are aligned with europe that we need to have public capital formation. the end of the, the end of commercial banking, the end of all of that stuff. and this is all the subtext of what's going on with the, with the, the situation in ukraine and how it's being handled. but the don't kid yourself in any way, manner, shape or form. this is about the destruction of the united states. and everybody thinks that will be a great thing. i got news for you at the united states falls apart in the worst way imaginable. no one is going to be happy about the results. nobody well, the russians or cans not anyway. well. ok because of as you take the do you think the end of the ussr was, was ugly. you just wait to see what happens. dad says, well, if it goes down it's going to take

a good part of the world with it. there's no doubt about that. ok. it's he lives in london. can the european union survive? because you know what, you know, people talk about getting through this winter. okay. they're going to get through this winter. it will be uncomfortable, but they will. but what about the next 5 winters? that's where the real challenges go ahead in london. i can look for this if you will be tough for everybody. again, you have to realize, i think people a few of understand what is wrong with the fear for us in relationship go back to normal as it were. i thought it was, it was in the interest of germany go up to 5. i think he was with stacy pipelines and northern students. so on there were these, i hear fear german budget, and this is what we do not want to stop the european snow. the elite snow very well . well, when they speak, they speak with american language. that's my point is not get up to heavily depend

on it, of course, to shape it and he's up to russia at liebherr, i think must be paid. you know, from a great, i mean 9097 raisins. wrote a book, the parents of that book. you just bought the purpose of that book was how to avoid the americans having to face situation in which europe moscow and china will have a united grayson and i. we have run out of time gentlemen, but i think that's why we have the answer. that's why ukraine happened in the 1st place due to address, but we just heard in london, that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks, i guess in london, prague and in north florida. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross top ah, ah,

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