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head over to r t dot com and out next are we witnessing the end of globalization as we've known it for the last half century. find out more on our case process. we'll see you back at the top of the hour. ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. are we witnessing the end of globalization as we have known it for about the last half century? it would certainly seem so the west ability to shape the world and its own image also appears to be on the way. as a result, should we expect new regional and block globalization ah,

cross sucking globalization, i'm joined by my guess, arthur clara in toronto. he's a liberty advocate in a freelance editor in washington. we have thomas holly, he is founder of the economics democratic and open societies project. and in bristol, we cross to johnny brower. she is a spokesperson for the world anti imperialist form, as well as author of drive to war against russia and china high cross acros and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate, are there. let me go to you 1st year. we didn't get a lot of coverage in western media, but there was a really big meeting between the chinese leader and a in re odd with the the saudi leader. and if you compare and contrast with what it looked like compared to biden biden got it, you know, a bump a shake and the red carpet came out for the chinese leader. huge deals being made. energy deals, infrastructure deals that works here. so this is very indicative of how the world

is changing when you say absolutely, absolutely. sometimes i worry that the western world is so caught up in its own way for lack of a better term when we're noticing what's going on around the world. i know we're part of the last 10 years, not more as been and expanding was i colonial power and it's projecting more and more of the power and world, including in, in the western world. you're in canada, united states and elsewhere. it's absolutely thomas, i can go to you. i mean, the globalization, when it was 1st conceived, it was quite popular and people were quite supportive of it because it will make the world like the west. well, that's not really panning out the way they thought it would. it is a matter of fact there's a lot of dissolution with it. even in the west. i mean,

the us seems to be moving away from it and creating its own block that hence what i had to say at the end of my introduction, you have a eurasian block, an american block that is subjugate in europe. we're seeing it. we're seeing it falling apart. fragments go ahead, thomas. well, let me just backtrack a little. what author just said, i don't see china as a colonial power at all. i see china looking after its national interest and it has a national interest in having access to energy. it has a national interest in secure c lanes. it has a national interest because it's a massive, massive manufacturing power and being able to trade. and i see that as really what is driving china is global engagement. of course, it also has a national interest in as, as a regional superpower, immediately in the south china sea. and of course, as, as a major, powerful nation as having

a respected position in the global system. and i suppose that that's really the tension between the united states and china, the united states is trying to deny china all of that. as regards saudi, the saudi visit. yes, this is very interesting because saudi arabia has been the linchpin of u. s. power in the middle east. and i think one of the interesting things, i think you can begin to connect some of the dots here. some of the stuff that the u. s. has done over the last 15 years is beginning to backfire now, particularly regarding using its power to bully other countries. and of course, you know, we've seen this in the russia, ukraine conflict the, the way that the u. s. confiscated russia as far as the attempt by the western powers to under cut russian rockies economy. most recently by this oil cap

machination saudi arabia reads all these things as well. and it seems that these same tools can be applied against it. india in india, that modi is seeing the same. i, latin america, i suspect all the latin american leaders are seeing the same. everyone begins to connect the dots except the folks in the us who are new imperial masika. you're absolutely right. it's back. just let me go to you. i mean, but it's, it's more pernicious than that because if you don't want to play our game, we're going to punish you. we will even punish so called allies. ok. this is very interesting as well. and there's the pushback that we have seen maybe not from allies, but the rest of the world is d dollarization. now once that happens then global hegemony comes to an end. chelsea go ahead will definitely what we're seeing is the, the waning of u. s. global hegemony, which let's face it really, i took on

a new aspect with the collapse of the soviet union and with the collapse of the soviet union that the but the sort of balancing act between the socialist world at no capitalist, imperialist world kind of collapsed and we had this ramp imperialism which was like, right, we can lose everywhere. we can wage war against everyone who stands against us. every body better get in line or will be invading you and stealing your wealth. and people felt that they had to countries that they had to get in line. they weren't strong enough to stand alone against us bullying. you know, look how difficult it's been for countries like north korea, cuba, iran who've been under sanctions, regimes for decades. you know, without much relief and how hard it was for them, particularly in the period after the collapse of the soviet union. so this kind of expansion of the aggressiveness and, and, and kind of rampant looting of the globe, of the imperialist after the collapse of the soviet union. you know, it lasted a certain amount of time, but it couldn't last, ever,

it hasn't lasted forever. and now we're seeing the rise of the independent world. and world countries are finding is the key to their independence is getting together. the only way you can stand up against the power of the u. s. it's an, it's army is, you know, it's economy. is it, it allies is to stand together, and that's the attraction now of the, of blocks like the bricks of s c o, that they're offering the ability to trade in atlanta. but they taking away this dynamic of service and master. you know, you know, arthur, it's, it's very interesting. we had the german chancellor a couple new cycles ago saying that after the conflict is over and ukraine and russia loses, he's saying this, they will have to re assess trade with russia. but if that is such an arrogant point of view, i mean, maybe the russians don't want to deal with you anymore. okay. i mean, again, it's, it's kind of, it's imperial mindset is that you want to be with us. you want to be like us and

you want to hold our values. but every, with every passing day, every single one of those propositions is false. arthur. well, i think, i think what that points to similar to what has been mentioned by the last 2 to speakers here as well, is that there's this universe that has come with power. and i like, for example, with united states and it's, and it's a projection of certain values around the world in the beginning, i believe that actually did start with some, some measure of genuine attempts to do good. you know, how people have democracy, help them have better lives, that sort of thing. but i think that that very quickly, especially post soviet union became a point where power corrupted and power is corrupting. absolutely. and for, for europe and united states, and i guess the western world in general, they underlined themselves at home. they found themselves abroad. and yet somehow, at certain levels,

they still see themselves as master of the world. and in canada there's, there's a famous hockey player who made his reputation off of skating, where the pack was going be rather than where it was or where it is. and it feels like those families are playing where it was or is rather than where it's going be that's, that's an interesting but a way of looking at thomas, you know, i think we need this, this whole mindset about western globalization is reflected in joseph burrell. blogs, you know, where europe is the garden and everywhere else is the jungle. i mean, if that isn't the neo colonial outlook, i don't know what is commerce? no, you, peter, peter, you're absolutely right. there is a and i like the expression that the previous author just use to bras, pride goes before a fall, and i'm not that has sort of what has happened to the u. s. project which i

agree initially. initially. there were some good intentions that but the united states has been captured. i mean on both sides about political aisle by this neil con view that the u. s. has to be globally hedge a monic, and that is community looking at it. we don't want to be to definitive about these things whose good, whose bad they are. all sides is always a mix, but it violates the most fundamental principle of the global order that made all else possible. and that goes back to the west trillion principle from the 1648 creative westphalia. but other countries don't interfere in the rise of others. and for all its screaming about russia and china intervening in the affairs of the united states, the u. s. is the global champion of interference and, and now it's actually pushing it to the point of belligerence and war. and this is

the root cause of the problem. the u. s. agent insistent on being globally hedge, a monic not allowing space for other countries to develop. they are going to develop along their own particular pods, both politically and economically. we should be the best thing we can do to encourage these values of democracy and human rights is to help these countries. not yeah, but i mean, i mean, not, but thomas, you know, in democracy in human rights, if i go to jesse right now, that's just a political cudgel. i don't, they don't believe in it. they don't believe in democracy in their own countries. go ahead and no, i think i think it's more complicated. ok, we'll get. we'll get it in the 2nd half of the program just so you want to feel that. i mean, i think you're absolutely right peter. the imperialist words have always differ greatly from their deeds. they say these, these words to make a veneer. they took about civilization, culture, human rights, democracy. they've been talking like that for 200 years. you know,

many countries have suffered, nevertheless, from their domination and control. you know, over the last century, many of them fall back against that, you know, but in recent decades it's been harder because as i said, the collect the ussr shifted the balance of forces in the world. but the fact is that imperialism seats, domination, not democracy, doesn't matter what it says, look at what it does, you know, and we have to, we have to recognize that, let's not forget, that this whole notion of a rules based order was invented when the imperialist decided to launch their aggressive illegal war against yugoslavia. let's read and i just hold that thought, hold out that we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on globalization state with

november 22nd 2020 to outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service offices, looking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for a russian spies among the monks. we mean dealer seeming or perform a reason for the brutal crack down one church. his parishioners said, song, a song about russia. ah, it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any old dogs, christian attack, imprison and even kill them. russia, what i knew, rush up on, you know, to pick grass when you love store and you, when your store grow offline, you and your total thought as you use a sample i use from his dog

with ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you we're discussing globalization. okay, so back to arthur in, in toronto, the lynchburg, the listener, the linchpin of the west vision of globalization is through financial institutions . now that you know, you, you have venezuela's gold frozen for stolen from it, rushes foreign reserve stolen from it. i mean, what kind of rules based order is that, i mean, you know, what about the rule of law? this is why is joe t pointed out in the 1st part of the program? other countries are getting together and saying, we don't need their institutions. we can have our own institutions. ringo. round them. okay. and they use the, the west uses. it's financial institutions as a cudgel. well, if you can get around it,

then fine. okay. and then you have not just you know, tray, but you have free trade where everyone benefits from it. okay. that, that the west is destroying itself and its own institutions. arthur. yeah, there's a, a great book called exit voice and loyalty that covers a lot of the 1st time amex, they go on with this sort of thing. but really, if you can't set up a set of rules and then go back on it whenever you want, it's finished. that's been case domestically and most of the western world as well . where there's an expectation of certain rule of law, the way things are done. but depending on your politics, depending of it's in favor or not, you get different treatment and robbie, seeing that in a world stage as well, there's, you know, differences don't go in the wrong way. they all bets are off. change the rules number one and you have have a stable rules based system that way. a top com is basically the same question to you. because if the, if these institutions work against the national interests of other countries,

they have every incentive to walk away from it and they can because new institutions are being created here. and as i started out with the example with saudi arabia, i mean, they were in the pocket of the american since $1000.00 thirties. and to have this happen right now they, they want to have control of their sovereignty. and it's sending a message to other countries in the world as well is that you don't need western institutions. the problem is, is that as josie is pointed out, the west will use its own military institutions if you defy them, go ahead thomas. oh that's, that's all true, i can argue with that. i agree with what you've said and what the other speakers said that major challenges. so i don't think it's as easy as you make it out. it's a one can put in place new currencies or new mechanisms for exchange, but countries will be looking to have, how do they store value if you want to balance of payments surplus, you need to be able to park that finance somewhere for

a while and then have access to it again in future. and so that's going to be a political problem for countries like china, russia, et cetera, how to build competence in their own systems. and that's why i was saying how, how complicated this issue is. the west is overreaching china and russia are going to have challenges of their own to build confidence in their systems and, and, and that's something that i would like to hear more of, from russia and china. how they're going to do that, i think would be very well actually. i think they are doing it right now. and when we're judging when russia was thrown out of the swift system there, there was a, a burgeoning one here, one already existing in china. and it is, it is, it's expanding now, it's going to take a long time. but it's, it's already happening in these making it, it, these things are, yes, they're difficult. but if you put time and effort into them resources, they will work. and there's an incentive to make them work for sure. go ahead and brazil agreed. there's absolutely incentive to make them work because what people are realizing is there is no way to co exist on terms of mutual respect with

imperialist powers. they will total subordination or, or, you know, or it's war and there isn't. and in between. so they, what people have learned to understand is there is no rules based, ordered as the law of the jungle. and the law of the jungle is the law of might is right, you know? and so that's why they say people have been making these moves to stand together economically as well as militarily it's the only chance of retaining independence and self determination. there is no other way to do it. you know, these moves that usa has got used to be able to dictate to everyone. it didn't stop to think about the consequences of its actions. it can't really, it's, it is impelled by its, its own, you know, a logic. but those moves towards financial warfare against russia and china over the last decade. have, as you rightly pointed out, pete have forced those countries to slowly and steadily start to reduce their vulnerabilities to us by natural control because they knew if they didn't, they were going to be destroyed. yeah, i mean, arthur,

i think future historians will marvel at how the europeans have surrendered their sovereignty, read even rejected their own national interest. i mean, again, you know, you know, what trade with russia will, maybe russia doesn't want to trade with europe anymore. they're unreliable partners, they don't keep their deals, these. the, somebody blew up those pipeline. somebody did, and there's no, but nobody in the west is particularly interested in. and why would russia, china, any other major power want to deal with people that don't keep their word? they're just simply dishonest when it comes to exchange arthur. well, this is a massive strategic blunder that the west has has not, it's just, it's, it's a little bit baffling. probably understand why there's, there's this time over the last few years where there is an opportunity to bring russia into the fault here, strategically against some of the rising hours from a weapon perspective. and instead of that, it's like we enter the new century and

a new way of doing things so many other ways. but at our strategy from the cold war . and obviously there's complexity you this, but it's, it's baffling me why this is the case for both europe and united states have been a bit thomas, i think it's idea logically driven because neoliberalism doesn't like to compromise . you know, i mean, i kind of grew up. no, i'm ok. you're okay. i'm going to do my thing. you're going to do your thing and will manage it. new liberalism doesn't work that way you must submit. that is the problem here. yes, it's an uncompromising ideology. i do think that western europe is really the key here, is baffling. what has happened to the central positions in, in western europe? i always think of western europe and russia as being an economic marriage made in heaven. russia has resources and needs capital. russia has some technology, western western europe has capital and technology needs resources. this is really

the basis for a true economic alliance, but that's what, that's what washington didn't. why? that was just the point i was going to get to that washington has never wanted that to happen. and that's indeed why they, even though they paid lip service to gorbachev division, they were never going to allow go. but job zation to happen. now the, the question is why has western europe western european politicians failed so comprehensively? and by the way, in the course of failing, i think they've said western europe up for a tremendous amount of economic and political trouble in the coming decade. my fear is that the center will collapse in western europe and then you will have a choice between left and the right. i would prefer that we would go in the left direction, but my fear is the wife is going to win out. and that would be a terrible step back now. for russia and china,

they don't really care who wins out. they would have liked to have dealt with the sensible center, but once the sensible center sheets on them and turns against them aggressively, then they'll deal with whoever they have to. so i think western europe is going to be the most interesting point of a political and economic conflict in the coming decade. just isn't it interesting, you know where the west says that projects, prosperity and security and itself now is the, the, the poor region of the world. ok. it's going in the wrong direction, while most of the other parts of the world are going, advancing working together, as you pointed out. the thing is, the rest of the world working together is precisely what's undermining europe. western europe, the imperialist, europe's ability to have their stability and prosperity right. one rested on the other. you know, why was europe complicit with the usa for so long? because it's so it's best interest as being a junior partner in this hegemonic rule of the world, than in, you know, trying to,

to trade separately as it was, wasn't strong enough after world war to the european powers, to be, to be a power on their own you know, the idea of them making a partnership with russia did always, always make the usa nervous. because that's the potential ability then for power to be strong enough to question, then threaten dominance of the usa. but the problem for the western europeans is they want to rush that was subservient, not to partner. that that's the, that's the how imperialism works. they wanted rushes resources, they wanted. it's military power. it's technological base. it's agriculture. but they wanted to just take it, they didn't want to get to join and share the spoils, share the lute. there's too many russians to, should you know, to, to cheryl that out with a fundamentally, i think, you know, that's where they've been, they've been sort of led by the usa, by the nose, you know, into the situation. but it's all actually driven by the fact that the capitalist

economy in the world is in crisis. this is desperate drive to, to sure up again, money to find profits at the expense of other people. and europe right now is suffering a boomerang effect from the huge wrist, with which it went into the economic war against russia. they thought they would bring russia to its knees in a few weeks. they failed and, and arthur as a result, the saying the sanctions that have come out of western capital in, at the end of sanctioned their own people. okay. i live here in moscow. we don't feel the sanctions, the way western medium claims. it's not true. it's simply not true difficulties. yes, but that's too difficult. these great challenges and new solutions and i, and that's what i want. i want, i want russia to be cut off from the west con boy lee. okay. because that's where the problems of the world are. arthur, there's a, are you also address? what was, what was the said about imperialism there? i think more the point. the problem for the west right now is we have the slice

sank, a whist ideological possession in all are suggestions and anyone speaks our stance against that possession is cult. yep. meaning that we have a very monolithic way of looking at things and it's not a very good one. the west prosperity came very much from the ability to open up markets. you have certain amounts of freedom to stick with assert wolfe law, as we discussed earlier. and in the bane of this ideology, now we are destroying all of that produce some sort of utopia. now every time i've seen that sort of utopian vision or read about sort of util condition of the past, it's never ended well. and we can see already that for the west, it's going badly. here he passed pretty well. i mean, arthur, it's isn't it really kit weight isn't really curious. it's the west. it's the most ideological part of the world. the rest of the world is figured out that pragmatism is the best way forward, but not the west and,

and then that's why their whole ideology is short circuiting against them and makes them very dangerous for the rest of us. i'm sorry everybody. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guess and watched in bristol and in toronto, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember, crossed up rules in 18. 98 into quinton rica became a u. s. colony, but still retain its own cultural identity, who can speak in favor of independence. we be thrown into prison today, close to half its population with rover risdon. so was erico, have new representation and, and can go to u. s. presidential elections like okay, we're gonna make you american citizens, which you didn't ask for, even if we were offered citizenship of had, and we would prefer around one se,

gotta was in his twenties. he chose to fight for his homelands independence. we felt that we could generate more of a spirit of resistance, rather than of submissive accept. a reality that we felt was like, shockingly unfair. my sorry that i decided to fight for my country. no one could have done things differently. yes, absolutely. do i now think that violence is not the means to achieve anything? absolutely long when i was sure seemed wrong when i just don't a whole new world is yet to say out because the advocate an engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look some common ground. ah. with the number of russian soldiers killed in ukrainian high mas rocky, the city of my kids, can you done? yes. rises to 89. the russian defense ministry says mobile phone signals gave way that position a new level of just exposed to china. russian energy joint just problem held rec, hold volumes in the new day. in the 1st days of the new year, made plans to build more pipeline heading east and became a fast so expelled the french on passive antique colonial sentiment strengthens on the african continent as people seek to cooperate with the.