are slight banging you when you start. i shoot. you a new bomb. i used to miss dog with ah, ah, hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered. i am peter level. are we witnessing the end of globalization as we have known it for about the last half century? it would certainly seem so the west, the ability to shape the world in its own image also appears to be on the way. as a result, should we expect new regional and block globalization ah,

cross sucking globalization, i'm joined by my guess, arthur clara in toronto. he's a liberty advocate in a freelance editor in washington. we have thomas polly. he is founder of the economics for democratic and open societies project. and in bristol, we cross to johnny brower. she is a spokesperson for the world anti imperialist form, as well as author of drive to war against russia and china, across cycles, in effect, that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate, are there, let me go to you 1st year. we didn't get a lot of coverage in western media, but there was a really big meeting between the chinese leader and a in re odd with the the saudi leader. and if you compare and contrast with what it looked like compared to biden biden, gotta, you know, a bump, a shake and the red carpet came out for the chinese leader. he huge deals being made energy deals, infrastructure deals that works here. um, this is very indicative of how the world is changing when you say absolutely,

absolutely. sometimes i worry that the western world is so caught up in its own worry for lack of a better term, but it was noticing what's going on around the world. i know we're part of the last 10 years, not more as been and expanding was i colonial power and it's projecting more and more of the power and world, including in, in the western world. you're in canada, united states and elsewhere. it's absolutely, thomas, i go to you. i mean, the globalization, when it was 1st conceived, it was quite popular and people were quite supportive of it because it will make the world like the west. well, that's not really panning out the way they thought it would. it is a matter of fact, there's a lot of dissolution with it. even in the west. i mean, the us seems to be moving away from it and creating its own block that hence what i had to say at the end of my introduction, you have a eurasian block,

an american block that it's subjugate europe. we're seeing it, we're seeing it falling apart. fragments go ahead, thomas. well, let me just backtrack a little. what author just said, i don't see china as a colonial power at all. i see china looking after its national interest and it has a national interest in having access to energy. it has a national interest in secure c lanes. it has a national interest because it's a massive, massive manufacturing power and being able to trade. and i see that is really what is driving china's global engagement. of course, it also has a national interest in as, as a regional superpower, immediately in the south china sea. and of course, as a major, powerful nation as having a respected position in the global system. and i suppose that that's really the

tension between the united states and china, the united states is trying to deny china all of that. as regards saudi, the saudi visit. yes, this is very interesting because saudi arabia has been the linchpin of us power in the middle east. and i think one of the interesting things, i think you can begin to connect some of the dots here. some of the stuff that the u. s. has done over the last 15 years, just beginning to backfire now, particularly regarding using its power to bully other countries. and of course, you know, we've seen this in the russia, ukraine conflict the, the way that the u. s. confiscated russia foreign reserves. the attempt by the western powers to under cut russian rockies economy. most recently by this oil cap machination saudi arabia reads all these things as well. and it seems that these

same tools can be applied against it in india, that modi is seeing the same. i, latin america, i suspect all the latin american leaders are seeing the same. everyone begins to connect the dots except the folks in the us who are imperial masika, you're absolutely right. it's back. just let me go to you. i mean, but it's more pernicious than that because if you don't want to play our game, we're going to punish you. we will even punish so called allies. ok. this is very interesting as well. and there's the pushback that we have seen maybe not from allies, but the rest of the world is d dollarization. now once that happens then global hegemony comes to an end. chelsea go ahead will definitely what we're seeing is the, the waning of u. s. global hegemony, which let's face it really, i took on a new aspect with the collapse of the soviet union with the collapse of the soviet

union that the but the sort of balancing act between the socialist world at neg capitalist, imperialist world kind of collapsed. and we had this ramp and imperialism which was like, right, we can lose everywhere. we can wage war against everyone who stands against us. every body better get in line or will be invading you and, and stealing your wealth. and people felt that they had to countries that they had to get in line. they weren't strong enough to stand alone against u. s. bullying. you know, look how difficult it's been for countries like north korea, cuba, iran, hooping under sanctions, regimes for decades. you know, without much relief and how hard it was for them, particularly in the period after the collapse of the soviet union. so this kind of expansion of the aggressiveness and, and, and kind of rampant looting of the globe, of the imperialist after the collapse of the soviet union. you know, it lasted a certain amount of time, but it couldn't last, ever, it hasn't lost it forever. and now we're seeing the rise of the independent world.

and world countries are finding is the key to their independence is getting together. the only way you can stand up against the power of the u. s. it's an, it's army is, you know, it's economy is, it's, it, allies is to stand together. and that's the attraction now of the, of blocks like the bricks in the s c o that they're offering the ability to trade in atlanta. but they're taking away this dynamic of service and master in arthur it's, it's, it's very interesting. we had the german chancellor a couple new cycles ago saying that after the conflict is over and ukraine and russia loses, he saying there's either there will have to re, as of so strayed with russia. but that is such an arrogant point of view. i mean, maybe the russians don't want to do with you anymore. okay. i mean, again, it's is kind of this imperial mindset is that you want to be with us. you want to be like us and you want to hold our values. but every, with every passing day,

every single one of those propositions is false. arthur. well, i think, i think what that points to similar to what has been mentioned by the last 2 to speakers here as well, is that there's this hubris that has come with power. and i like, for example, with united states and it's, and it's a projection of certain values around the world in the beginning, i believe that actually did start with some, some measure of genuine intent to do good. you know, how people have democracy, help them have better lives, that sort of thing. but i think that that very quickly, especially post soviet union became a point where power corrupted and power is corrupting. absolutely. as for, for europe and united states, and i guess the western robin general, they underlined themselves at home. they find themselves abroad. and yet somehow, at certain levels, they still see themselves as master of the world. and in canada there's, there's

a famous hockey player who made his reputation off of stating where the pack was going be rather than where it was or where it is. and it feels like those families are playing where it was or is rather than where it's going be that's. that's an interesting way of looking at thomas. you know, i think we knew this, this whole mindset about western globalization is reflected in joseph morales. blogs, you know, where europe is the garden and everywhere else is the jungle. i mean, if that isn't the neo colonial outlook, i don't know what is commerce? no, you, peter, peter, you're absolutely right. there is a, i like the expression that the previous author just used hubris, pride goes before a fall, and that has sort of what has happened to the us project, which i agree initially. initially, there was some good intentions that but the united states has been captured. i mean

on both sides about political aisle by this neil con view that the u. s. has to be globally hedge a monic, and that is community looking at it. we don't want to be to the definitive about these things whose good, whose bad they are. all sides is always a mix, but it violates the most fundamental principle of the global order and made all else possible. and that goes back to the west trillion principle from 1640 a tree of westphalia, that other countries don't interfere in the rise of others. and for all its screaming about russia and china intervening in the affairs of the united states, the u. s. is the global champion of interference and, and now it's actually pushing it to the point of belligerence and war. and this is the root cause of the problem. the u. s. agent insistent on being globally,

had to monic not allowing space for other countries to develop. they are going to develop along their own particular parts, both politically and economically. we should be the best thing we can do to encourage these values of democracy and human rights is to help these countries. not yeah, but i mean, i mean, but thomas, you know, in democracy in human rights, if i go to jesse right now, that's just a political cudgel. i don't, they don't believe in it. they don't believe in democracy in their own countries. go ahead and no, i think i think it's more complicated. ok, well, we'll get it in the 2nd half of the program. just want to feel that. i mean, i think you're upset. you right peter. the imperialist words have always differ greatly from their deeds. they say these, these words to make a veneer, they took about civilization, culture, human rights, democracy. they've been talking like that for 200 years. you know, many countries have suffered, nevertheless, from their domination and control. you know, over the last century,

many of them put back against that, you know, but in recent decades it's been harder because as i said, the collect, the ussr shifted the balance of forces in the world. but the fact is that imperialism seeks domination, not democracy, doesn't matter what it says, look at what it does, you know, and we have to, we have to recognize that, let's not forget, that this whole notion of a rules based order was invented when the imperialist decided to launch their aggressive illegal war against yugoslavia, i just hold that thought, hold out that we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on globalization state with ah, ah

ah, for is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? high selection, whole community. are you going the right way or are you being led to somewhere? which direction? what is true? what is faith?

in the world corrupted, you need to descend. ah. so join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, ah, needs to come to the russian state local narrative. i've studied as i phone and ignore santini div, asking him, i'm not getting calls, i'll slap it within the 50 babel bit. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. when else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aren't russia for date and support r t spoke neck even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

ah, welcome back. across stock were all things are considered on peter labelle term and you were discussing globalization. ah, okay, it's go back to arthur in toronto, the lynch, the listener. the lynch of the wes as vision of globalization is through financial institutions. now that you know, you have been his way, was gold frozen, stolen from it, russia's foreign reserve stolen from it. i mean, what kind of rules based order is that, i mean, you know, what about the rule of law? this is why is josie pointed out on the 1st part of the program. other countries

are getting together and saying, we don't need their institutions, we can have our own institutions, we can go around them. ok. and they use the west, uses it financial institutions as a cudgel. well, if you can get around it, then fine. okay. and then you have not just, you know, trade, but you have free trade where everyone benefits from it. ok. the west is destroying itself and its own institutions. arthur. yeah, there's a, a great book of exit boys and loyalty that covers a lot of the personal dynamics they go on with this sort of thing. but really, if you can't set up a set of rules and then go back on it whenever you want, it's finished that's being faced domestically. and most of the western world as well. where there's an expectation of certain will a law and a way of things or none, but depending on your politics, depending if it's in favor or not, you get different treatment. and we're obviously seeing that in a world stage as well. there's, you know, if they're going the wrong way, they all bets are off. we can change the rules whenever we want, and you have have

a stable rules based system that way. a tom and tom is basically the same question to you. because if the, if these institutions work against the national interests of other countries, they have every incentive to walk away from it and they can because new institutions are being created here. and in, as i started out with the example with saudi arabia, i mean, they were in the pocket of the americans since 19 thirties. and to have this happened right now they, they want to have control of their sovereignty. and it's sending a message to other countries in the world as well is that you don't need western institutions. the problem is, is that as josie is pointed out, the west will use its own military institutions if you defy them, go ahead thomas. oh that's that's, that's all true. i can argue with that. them. i agree with what you've said and what the other speaker said the major challenges. so i don't think it's as easy as you make it out. it's a one can put in place new currencies or new mechanisms for exchange,

but countries will be looking to have, how do they store value if you want to balance of payments surplus, you need to be able to park that for finance somewhere for a while and then have access to, again in future. and so that's going to be a political problem for countries like china, russia, it's after how to build confidence in their own systems and, and that's why i was saying how complicated this issue is. the west is overreaching china and russia are going to have challenges of their own to build confidence in their systems and, and, and that's something that i would like to hear more of from russia and china. how they're going to do that. i think be very well actually, i think they are doing it right now. and when we're judging when russia was thrown out of the swift system there, there was a, a burgeoning one here and one already existing in china. and it is, it is, it's expanding now, it's going to take a long time and it's, it's already happening. it is making it, it, did these things are yes, they're difficult. but if you put time and effort into them resources, they will work. and there's an incentive to make them work for sure. go ahead in

brazil agree, there's absolutely incentive to make them low because what people are realizing is there is no way to co exist on terms of mutual respect with imperialist powers. they will total subordination or all you know, or it's war and there isn't an in between. so they, what people have learned to understand is there is no rules based, ordered as the law of the jungle. and the law of the jungle is the law of might is right, you know? and so that's why they say people have been making these moves to stand together economically as well as militarily it's the only chance of retaining independence and self determination. there is no other way to do it. you know, these moves that usa has got used to be able to dictate to everyone. it didn't stop to think about the consequences of its actions. it can't really, it's, it is impelled by its, its own, you know, a logic. but those moves towards financial war for, against russia and china over the last decade. have, as you rightly pointed out,

peter have forced those countries to slowly and steadily start to reduce their vulnerabilities to us by natural control because they knew if they didn't, they were going to be destroyed. yeah, i mean, arthur, i think future historians all marvel at how the europeans have surrendered their sovereignty. ah, read even rejected their own national interests. i mean, again, you know, you know, what trade with russia will, maybe russia doesn't want to trade with europe anymore. they're unreliable. partners, they don't keep their deals, these. the somebody blew up those pipeline. somebody did, and there is no, but nobody in the west is particularly interested in it. why would russia, china, or any other major power want to deal with people that don't keep their word? they're just simply dishonest when it comes to exchange arthur. well, this is the massive strategic blunder that the west has has gone. it's just, it's, it's a little bit baffling to try to understand why there's, there's this time over the last few years where there is an opportunity to bring

russia into the fault here. strategically hedge against some of the rising hours from a weapon perspective. and instead of that, it's like we enter the new century and a new way of doing things so many other ways. but at our strategy from the cold war . and obviously there's complexity you this, but it's, it's baffling me why this is the case for both europe and united states. yeah. but a bit, thomas, i think it's idea logically driven because neoliberalism doesn't like to compromise . you know, i mean, i kind of grew up. no, i'm ok. you're okay. i'm going to do my thing. you're going to do your thing and will manage it. new liberalism doesn't work that way you must submit. that is the problem here. yes, it's an uncompromising ideology. i do think that western europe is really the key here. it is baffling. what has happened to the central positions in, in western europe. i was think of western europe and russia as being an economic

marriage made in heaven. russia has resources and needs capital. russia has some technology, western western europe has capital and technology needs resources. this is really the basis for a true economic alliance, but that's what, that's what washington didn't. why? yeah, that was just the point i was going to get to that washington has never wanted that to happen. and that's indeed why they, even though they paid lip service to gorbachev division, they were never going to allow go. but job zation to happen. now the, the question is why has western europe, what's in europe, ian politicians failed. so comprehensively here. and by the way, in the course of failing, i think they've said western europe for a tremendous amount of economic and political trouble in the coming decade. my fear is that the center will collapse in western europe and then you will have

a choice between left and the right. i would prefer that we would go in the left direction, but my fear is the wife is going to win out. and that would be a terrible step back now. for russia and china, they don't really care who wins out. they would have liked to have dealt with the sensible center, but once the sensible center cheats on them and turns against them aggressively, then they'll deal with whoever they have to. so i think western europe is going to be the most interesting point of political and economic conflict in the coming decade. just isn't it interesting, you know where the west says ed projects, prosperity and security and itself now is the, the, the poor region of the world. ok. it's going in the wrong direction, while most of the other parts of the world are going, advancing working together, as you pointed out. the thing is, the rest of the world working together is precisely what's undermining europe. western europe, the imperialist,

europe's ability to have their stability and prosperity right. one rested on the other. you know, why was europe complicit with the usa for so long? because it's so it's best interest as being a junior partner in this hegemonic rule of the world, than in, you know, trying to, to trade separately as it was, wasn't strong enough. after world war 2, the european powers to be, to be a power on their own. you know, the idea of them making a partnership with russia did always, always make the usa nervous. because that's the potential ability then for power to be strong enough to question. then threaten dominance of the usa, but the problem for the western europeans is they want to rush that was subservient . not to partner. that, that's, that, that's the how imperialism works. they wanted russia's resources, they wanted, it's military power. it's technological base. it's agriculture. but they wanted to just take it, they didn't want to do to join and share the spoils, share the lute. there's too many russians to, should, you know, to, to cheryl the outwards of fundamentally, i think, you know,

that's where they've been, they've been sort of led by the usa, by the knows, you know, into the situation. but it's all actually driven by the fact that the capitalist economy in the world is in crisis. this is desperate drive to, to sure up again, money to find profits at the expense of other people. and europe right now is suffering a boomerang effect from the humorist, with which it went into the economic war against russia. they thought they would bring russia to its knees in a few weeks. they failed and, and arthur, as a result, the sang, the sanctions that have come out of western capital in, at the end of sanctioned their own people. okay. i live here in moscow. we don't feel the sanctions, the way western medium claims. it's not true. it's simply not true difficulties. yes, but that's too difficult. these great challenges and new solutions and i, and that's what i want. i want, i want russia to be cut off from the west con boy lee. okay. because that's where the problems of the world are. arthur, bears,

ace. you also address what was said about imperialism there. i think more the point, the problem for the west right now is we have to slice st. west ideological possession in all our institutions. anyone speaks our stance against that possession is called yet meaning that we have a very monolithic way of looking at things. and it's not a very good one. once prosperity came very much from the ability to open up markets to have certain amounts of freedom to stick with a certain pool of law as we discussed earlier. and in the vein of this idea ology, now we are just pulling all of their produce some sort of utopia. now every time i've seen that sort of utopian vision or read about that sort of token vision in the past, it's never ended well, and we can see all ready for the west. it's going badly, very bad. well, i mean,

arthur, isn't it really, isn't it really curious? it's the west. it's the most ideal logical part of the world. the rest of the world is figured out that pragmatism is the best way forward, but not the west. and that's why they're whole ideology is short circuiting against them and makes them very dangerous for the rest of us. i'm sorry everybody. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests and watched in ritual and in toronto, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are to see you next time. remember process the ah. when i was shot the wrong one, all room. just don't any room. yesterday out, this thing because the attitude and engagement equals the trail.

when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for common ground the joggers archipelago, homer, the jo, san diego garcia of the largest island and the archipelago is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you get given met, div i to the us government to make a military base and just deported all of the juggle send people from their country . so they called return back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm fact we'll fighting for the right. so i. c we do not consider that the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle. since i don't the question of self determination,

the legal advice we've received is actually the trickle shins. we're not at all, not a people. for me, it's time to move on and see what we tend to fall. the tumbler said for me to return back home. there is no us to support from the nomination. i commission, i forget united michelle, don't care about chug restaurant people who is the aggressor today. i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i figure which of the problem was to call soon as we speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine, or wish you were banding all imports of russian oil and gas new g i. g of us with the, with joe biden imposing the sanctions on russia. jo has destroyed the

american economy, so there's your boomerang. ah, ah, 1972. when i 1st met really brighter and we sat down on a bench like this, and i had the 1st conversation with man that i was to follow for many years. and that path changed my life hulu, in 1976, philly, bad at all here that. and once i gotta banded together with others, fighting for independence and formed, lost much dose or the cane cutters in the context was.