business support funding, ammunition, nice mission, african connectedness. i don't care about chug or send people ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . russia in the west survived the cold war because both recognized and practice, the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west has done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security guarantees. ah

cross sucking security guarantees. i'm joined by my guess. the boyish of mileage in washington. he is a blogger, and column is in quebec. we have dmitri last caught us, he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and in worth and we crossed anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. all right, gentlemen, crosstalk rules and effect, that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciated a boy, let me go to you 1st than the imperial city. um, this idea of into visibility of, of security has been quite lost ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and nato is just thrown that into the wind, and i would say that speak the in that is to be the result is a conflict we have in ukraine though no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west and the soviet union that came up with that logic that kept the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead in the boucher. well dis, but you are quite correct. this was what entered the call ended up preventing the

cold war from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red conte from history in the ninety's, amid this whole end of history triumphal as that that became the ideology you were in washington. and the helsinki process basically became a conveyor belt for the us to browbeat other countries into doing it, speeding. and this doctrine that wasn't quite so clearly formulated. but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the world is the us. and everybody else has to do what they're told, or else. and we saw what or else meant in 1999. when nato proceeded to attack you, then you with sloppy, without any sort of breaking, do you want charter, its own charter to health? think you charter all imaginable charters it was privy to and it did that was just basically ok. we did it because we wanted to and what are you going to do about it? and, you know, 23 years later we are, we are,

we are as so it's one of those. obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties to the side, but that has really never been the case. has it to meet tree. i mean, it was a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees for europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he is obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me and is that the, does the german chancellor that those low security guarantees were in place before nato expanded? i mean it's, there is this sense of, of forgetting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri? well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the starting point for history. that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s.

hedge among the united states. government and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, it's beyond reasonable dispute. not only that europe signed onto the, know the notion of indivisible security and recognize that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something we're seeing today and very vivid and painful in a very painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns, the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum and russia, there was at antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the

breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and the west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that. because the ice days decided that its status as the world sole superpower was at risk, and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost exactly one year ago, russia sent to nato in to washington to note ultimatums, whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the security architecture is collapsed or the is that be something that could be possibly entertained? now i me because because we have mixed voices in europe, you know, there's no relationship, no future with russia than macaroni or any got criticized for it said there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts, anthony?

well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amount of distrust are which has been caused by what's happened because has been rightly said from the 90 ninety's when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nato, even though they weren't in written format. ah, but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they totally massively expanded it, especially since the end of the century. i'll say it's been a complete our sense of distrust there because why should are the need? russia are trust and a p. p. gland, nato. but i yourself to look at the situation office, see any concrete needs to have some security and the united states wanted security where may have the cuban missile. ready crisis and you have to look at what are the former president gorbachev said,

and because he was the architect with our agreements between the old soviet union and the laser. and he said a, you may not humiliates a country. and it spec prayer to be no consequences and because there are consequences, good mismatch they p millie, millie heights in russia, which is what's been happening now, but it's as though these agreements we had, ah, the helsinki, the, the, the structures we have in place to reduce tension, i have been totally ignored, as, as he said. and the voices for peace are shut down. and a, one of the objectives of nation nato is see supposed to be to protect freedom. but there's a freedom in the, in the west at the moment about our free and open debate each. well,

this whole issue. and is it really impressive? nice. i countryside conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points, again, there's no strategic tool, other interest in being involved in this conflicts or the voice. i mean, if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's, it's our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary. they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want to do that. and it has been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right, well that the thing about europe and capital is, is that i see a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency. essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now, they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden,

because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the problem with the collective west is twofold. one, they can't under the they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they, you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful rush in the colleges of them that literally translates it's not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because, and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of pop culture terms that everybody can understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that needed to be done in the west, and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving

security guarantees to russia, which is about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been said, sorry, is that home and band, any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these fantasies that, you know, once russia will lose things, we'll go back to the way they were before, well, i've got a good news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict, which is that's not how these things work. yeah, and dmitri in fresh is not granted security guarantees, it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri, again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia from which we seem to suffer in the last. we forget that the soviet union, according to 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences, suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war,

the 2nd one. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course, the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri dmitri, if you decide to point out collective west minus the u. k, at the time, it's really interesting. ok, because you had the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going . i'm sorry to interrupt. obviously this is a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean, these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers, the united kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet, we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on of

the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly under western border. and in lesson until we come to grips with that reality. we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of nuclear. a nuclear dmitri, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentlemen and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantees. stay with our team. the ah

november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service offices looking entrances and exits. the key is the oldest one, the street. they were looking for, alleged russian spies among the monks. we mean deal of seeming us or foam reason for the brutal crime down one church. his parishioners had song, a song about russia. ah me it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any old adult christian attack in prison

and even kill them? russia, what i knew rush up, i need to figure out how many miles store any store pro offline. i knew in your store thought i shoot you a sample. i used to miss dod with ah, welcome back to cross sack where all things are considered on peter. let's remind you. we're discussing security guarantees. is go back to anthony and we're thing that, you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's her bowden to talk about what we're talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that a european security architecture would not only excluded russia, but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're

going to have peace in europe passed to be rectified. and given the voices that we're hearing in europe and in obviously, washington in london, we have a very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead anthony. yes, us that story 3, but we got to recognize what the real agenda is here. and i told he, god, that the american poets issue our sunday plot for a well, when she said the ukraine war is all about regime change in russia, and it's already about us anything else? and it's about our godless vested interests that play a big about change so that they get the comfy bratia ah, plays the game and the indigo able to sway. and we need to look at what sub present pacing said in to thousands about our euro. because he said russia is passive european culture and i cannot imagine my own country in

isolation from europe and what we often call lee civilized. ready worlds so it is hard for me to visualize nature as an enemy. so i don't think russia ever wanted a comb brakes or nature as an enemy, bob regal. hinton powers who have been trying to bring about this tong breaks between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting if any not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family were visiting russia and improving relations between the u. k roster. and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us johnson is actively woman. ready growing encouraging the suddenly of mo weapons on the bull. aids to the bustled respective. president said and skis,

are you crying? i and the u. k. and certain other countries had gull blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which should been supplied to the ukraine that ended up being to bomb the civilians, as well as all li, military for casualties as well as she right. the said, we've got a proper the, the windstream major in the west of the u. k as well. he's not on debate. so the public does not actually know the truth. that was his going on. but a sort of bit of a was sad because nate, i was supposed to have an objective of securing peace or managing co operation and guarding freedom and night. i was doing none of those in the crying and dr. europe as a whole lot. and if i say, i mean south and burn, makes it very existential. a, i mean a, we must win. russia must be defeated. well,

what happens or in the reverse happens, the boy ship, i mean, how, how does nato survive? this which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it when it's being proven. well nato's mission, according to its 1st secretary general, who was the british peer. unlike suttonberg, who is an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that and it has been beneficial doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously, american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. yeah, it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord,

his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that, you know, stillberg in his infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have any respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato was a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in the war than welcome to the consequences, the one big issue is that what we've discussed before is that it's not just historically amnesia. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg, movies were to soviet union doesn't even exist. right. and unfortunately, i've, i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that,

you know, give them another half a generation and they will have read content. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no, boy, i don't know if you've noticed them. i'm a big fan of the world war theories that came up 1974. i think it was, it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and if wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make, well, well, keep the memory of the war. authentic memory. dmitri, i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't, it's gradually. ok, i find it in thinkable that nato will survive in any meaningful form. perhaps some rump of nato, confined to a core of states and western europe, might survive this disaster from a reputational perspective. but nato's in this, in this sort of existential crisis because it stated credibility on total victory

and ukraine, which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that, nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in february. because, for example, nato committed, you know, extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources. apparently, the nexus of a trillion dollars to the war and f dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to the taliban, who were armed with soviet era small arms. nato in the name of human rights. and the doctrine of the responsibility protect doctrine which is abused shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time up until that point of time, the most prosperous state in africa, needle bombarded serbia and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved. it's festering and there could be war in kosovo . so when you look across the spectrum of nato intervention, what you see is one failed,

stayed in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring stilton berg and others, that every natal members spend 2 percent of its g d, p on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether, even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront, including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment, that this is an elite wore it because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here. but this isn't an elite agenda . yes, it definitely is a registered times about the record of nights which has been one of failure. in fact, the one instance where they could have succeeded to get his son. i totally didn't

grade job but which i 26 with in afghans shaban ride city case and standards for women. and so on a survey because they did a deal with the taliban. no, never lost a major battle with the toddler barry, so that he conveniently left after this time to get enrolled in the crime lab. we have also sort of wider picture here, and it's all very sad. other people in the event saw controlling what is happening, but we have 2 g o s 2 are in all respects of countries feel involved in the crime should encourage our governments to exit from those policies . and oh, but that would be appeasement in munich. yeah, yeah. that's all you hear, it's all you hear. and you know, you know, all of you,

the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan. it doesn't say that's about the deal with the taliban. good. very are piece. so is old. okay. well, yeah. well, i've got, you know, there bunch, i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new gripped. ok because afghanistan was a 20 year griff, now this is a new grift. yeah. well, it is the, the problem, the problem with this is that obviously it's much bigger grid for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there was banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who were hoping for short, victorious war and it hasn't been that the now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water in warfare. and also of gaston was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate

consequences not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with the, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because the, you know, dividing government tried blaming the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's for the 1st time in god knows how many years, certainly the wes, living memory, a conflict that's actually hitting home. however indirectly. and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's the absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some sort of, you know, government talk to people in democracy. let me jump in here. demetrius glass, 30 seconds, go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine? well, my great fear is that it won't. ok, i seem to. yeah, yeah, that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to deescalate. right now we're

talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands, get out into the street and demand that our governments finally engage in a process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, and i, yeah, well, you know that, that's the, one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy in listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion. as all the time we have many thanks them i guess in washington, quebec, and wording. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember cross talk with ah,

ah ah . a wrong one. i just don't. all you have to shape out the same because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah,

the claims of the king of the belgians leopold the 2nd to the congo were finally authorized by the leading european countries in 18. 85 in the very heart of the african continent. a state under the rule of the belgian monarch was declared since the beginning, the congo free state was total, may him for the local population and functioned as a universal concentration camp. the majority of the population, including women and children, were forced to work on the rubber plantations. those who failed to fulfill their quota were beaten and mutilated. to keep the congolese people under control, the king set up the so called for spook leak, which were punitive detachments that cast terror on the captured country and its inhabitants. fearing that their subordinates would simply waste bullets hunting for wild animals, the officers demanded that the soldiers gave an answer for every bullet used. and

as proof presented a chop hand of an african. it was not uncommon when trying to justify the use of the ammunition, the colonist amputated the hands of not only those who were dead, but also of those who were kept alive. the atrocious exploitation of the congo turned into a real genocide in only 20 years. the policy of the belgians led to the death of nearly 10000000 people alongside the holocaust, that genocide of the congo population is considered to be one of the grimmest pages in the history of mankind. ah with

this yes, i said, november 22nd 2022 count raised orthodox christians, confronted ukrainian security service officers, docking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery were looking for alleged russian spies among the monks. since i was just calling about bringing my la la a today, ukrainian security services can brandon agent of moscow, any mon go priest unwilling to break relations with the russian orthodox church, dozens of ukrainian churches have been rated to form a reason for the brutal crackdown. one church, his parishioners said some a song about russia ah, me.