oh, just don't hold a sheet out. this thing becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, this for you, melissa. and this will spare manipulators or not, but miss loose, not at all. what cold showed mister vanya though, the dodger nick was laquia and ready for darcy suits. and of course, rush them. yeah, them for you, daniel, is your emanuel amendment? each was marty was to someone like which if somebody in middle colonies to publish venice laughs with stanley kit to mozilla, you georgia which are fed in your sierra yet no more. so been glove in the seamless

darlene royster to nazi to blah. we cause you, you'll be brought dyslexia, i still didn't want to watch a loud, awkward up. well, you'll be what they have done that you're not on that on. if not said, i would talk to you that, you know nice. he's going to learn this link, wishing cargo flip over to shoot dog quarter. he's mark floor, but honestly it is hm . with hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . russia in the west survived the cold war because both recognized and practice, the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain

security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west has done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security guarantees. ah, cross talking security guarantees, i'm joined by my yes, the boyish mileage in washington. he's a blogger, and call him is incorrect back. we have dmitri last caught us, he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and unworthy. we cross to anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. all right, gentlemen, cross talk roles and in fact, that means you can jump in anytime you want. i always appreciated the boy should let me go to you 1st and the imperial city. this idea of indivisibility of security has been quite last, ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and they tow is just thrown that into the wind and i would say that speed and that is the reason the result is

the conflict that we have been ukraine, though. no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west and the soviet union that came up with that logic that kept the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead in the butcher. well this, you're quite correct that this was entered, the call ended up preventing the cold war from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red con, from history in the ninety's, amid this whole end of history, triumphalism that, that became the ideology to you are in washington. and the helsinki process basically became a conveyor belt for the us to browbeat other countries into doing it, speeding. and this doctrine that wasn't quite so clearly formulated. but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the world is the us. and everybody else has to do what they're told, or else. and we saw what or else meant in 1999. when nato proceeded to attack

you, then you with sloppy, without any sort of breaking you went charter, its own charter to health. think you charter all imaginable charters? it was privy to and it did that was just basically, okay, we did it because we wanted to and what are you going to do about it? and you know, 23 years later we are, we are, we are as so it's one of those obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties inside. but that has really never been the case, has it to me treat me. it was a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees for europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he is obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me and is that the, does the german chancello that those low security guarantees were in place before

nato expanded? i mean it's, there's this sense of, of forgetting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri? well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the starting point for history. that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s. hedge among the united states. government and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, it's beyond reasonable dispute. not only that europe signed onto the know the notion of indivisible security and recognized that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something were seen today and very vivid and painful in a very they've been painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were

repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns, the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum in russia, there was antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that. because the ice days decided that its status is the world sole superpower was at risk. and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost exactly. one year ago, russia sent to nato and to washington to notes ultimatums, whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the

security architecture is collapsed. or that is that be something that could be possibly entertained now, maybe because we have mixed voices in europe. you know, there is no relationship, no future with russia than macross. got criticized for it said there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts, anthony? well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amount of distrust which has been caused by what's happened because has been rightly said from the 90 ninety's when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nice or even though they weren't in written format, ah, but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they chose early, massively expanded it, especially since the end of the century. i'll say it's been a complete our sense of distrust there, because why should the need russia,

our trust and a p. p gland, nato. but i also have to look at the situation office. see, any country needs to have some security and the united states wanted security where me had the cuban missile crisis. ready and you have to look at what are the former president gorbachev said, and because he was the architect with agreements between the old soviet union and her niece. and he said a, you may not humiliates a country. and it spec prep where to be no consequences. and of course, there are consequences and mismatch they pima really heights in russia, which is what's been happening now. but it's as though these agreements we had, ah, the helsinki, the, the, the structures we have in place to reduce tension. i have been totally ignored, as,

as he said, and the voice is for peace. are shut down and a, one of the objectives of nation nato is c supposed to be, to protect freedom. but there's a freedom in the, in the west, at the moment about a free and open debate. it's all this whole issue. and there's a really impressive di countryside, conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points, again, there's no strategic tool, other interest in being involved in this phone call. it's what the boys should. i mean, if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's a, it's a, it's our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary. they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want

to do that. and it has been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right, well that the thing about a european capital is, is that i see a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency, essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now, they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden, because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the problem with the collective west is twofold. one, they can't under the they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they, you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful rush in the colleges of them that literally translates it's not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because, and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of pop culture terms that everybody can

understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that's needed to be done in the west, and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving security guarantees to russia, which is of about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been centuries at home and band, any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these fantasies that you know, once russia will lose things, we'll go back to, to the way they were before well, i've got a good news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict, which is that's not how these things work in dmitri, if russia is not granted security guarantees,

it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri. again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia from which we seem to suffer in the last. we forget that the soviet union, according to the 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences, suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war, the 2nd one. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course, the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri dmitri, if that's the point of collective west minus the u. k, at the time, it's really interesting. ok, because you had the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going . i'm sorry to interrupt. well, obviously this is

a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers. the united kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet, we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on of the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly under western border and lesson until we come to grips without reality . we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of nuclear nuclear dr. jimmy 3, i'm gonna have to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentleman and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantee. stay with our team. ah, ah,

a just so glad aisha graphic. what is the best time to go about them? this is a little bit of a b i t school for carbonate port backwards. thank say me something in my skin report to me. it got a ticket, which it it said to jeff, i'm using mean you can even go can the coma, alyssa and the communist somebody and the community that the comma lp, 2 left, you know, it was all supposed to this out. thank you so affect it or fully out of that. i need it with us. that's a disclaimer. but then with the routing the spoofing, this is looking at them. the daughter of some of us was 1st at

messina, that it was the if it doesn't show kathy so much, but he did them. we cannot let crystal will it was, it was caged was a, there's any big us left. go that she's good that i think it's an open to she company that were still a to past african littleton, donald productions not women are you know, but of, of 11 us gets enough of it. welcome back to cross sack where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing security guarantees. ah, let's go back to anthony where things are, you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's her bowden to talk about what we're talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that a european security architecture would not only excluded russia,

but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're going to have peace in europe, has to be rectified. and given the voices that we're hearing in europe and in obviously, washington in london, we have all very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead anthony. yes, that's very 3, but we got to recognize what the real agenda is here. and i told him he got on to the american color tissue or sunday clock for a well, when she said the ukraine wool is all about regime change in russia, and it's not really about anything else. and it's about our godless vested interest . that late are too big about changes so that they get the comfort bratia ah, plays the game and the in the guy, but display on the, on. we need to look at what sub present pacing said in to thousands

about our euro. because he said, russia is passive european culture, and i cannot imagine my own country in isolation from europe and what we often call lee civilized worlds. so it is hard for me to visualize nature as an enemy. so i don't think russia ever wanted a comb breaks or nature as an enemy, but we go hidden powers who have been trying to bring about this conflicts between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting if any not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family was visiting russia and improving relations between the cad roster. and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us johnson is actively war mongering. encouraging the suddenly of mo weapons and the

bull aids to the bottomless packs of precedent said, i'm skis, are you crying? i and the u. k. and some other countries haggle blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which had been supplied to the ukraine that ended up being used to bomb the civilians, as well as all li, military or casualties as well as she right. the said, we've got a proper but the, the windstream major in the west of the u. k as well. he's not on debate. so the public does not actually know the truth that was going on on that, but a sort of bits of a, a sad thing because nate, i was supposed to have an objective of securing peace, promising co operation, and guarding freedom a night. i was doing none of those in the crying and dr. europe as

a whole lot. and if i say, i mean south and burn makes it very existential. a, i know we must win. russia must be defeated. well, what happens or in the reverse happens, the boy ship, i mean, how, how does nato survive? this, which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it, when it's being proven. well nato's mission, according to its 1st secretary general, who was the british peer, unlike suttonberg, who is an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that. and it has been beneficial doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously, american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is

a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord, his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that don verbs in his infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have a respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato is a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in the war than welcome to the consequences, one big issue is that what we've discussed before is, it's not just historically me m nisha. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg movies where the soviet union doesn't

even exist. right. and unfortunately, i've, i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that, you know, give him another half a generation and they will have read conduct. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no voice, i don't know if you've noticed. i'm a big fan of the world war series that came out in 1974. i think it was, it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and if wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make well, well, keep the memory of the war. authentic memory demetrius. i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't, it's gradually. ok. i find it and thinkable that nato will survive in any meaningful form. perhaps some rump of nato, confined to a core of states and western europe,

might survive this disaster from a reputational perspective. but nato's in this, in this sort of existential crisis because it stated credibility on total victory and ukraine, which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that, nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in february. because, for example, nato committed, you know, extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources. apparently, the nexus of a trillion dollars to the war and f dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to the taliban, who were armed with soviet era small arms. nato in the name of human rights and the doctrine of the responsibility protect doctrine which it's abuse. shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time up until that point of time, the most prosperous state in africa, natal bombarded serbia and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved,

it's festering and there could be war in kosovo. so when you look across the spectrum of nato intervention, what you see is one failed state in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring stilton berg and others, that every natal members spend 2 percent of its g d. p. on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether, even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront, including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment. that this is any liter wore it because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here. but this isn't an elite agenda . yes, it definitely is a we just had comments about the record of nights which has been one

failure. in fact, of the one instance where they could have succeeded to get his son. i totally didn't grade dipper which i had 26 been in afghans. she'd been rides city caisson standards for women and so on. i should be because they did a deal with the taliban. no, never lost a major battle with the tyler or so that he conveniently left afghanistan to get enrolled in the crime lab. we have to process a wider picture and it's all very sad. other people in the event saw controlling what is happening. but we have to do our best to are in all respects of countries feel involved in the crime should encourage our governments to exit from those policies. and oh,

but that would be appease men, munich, gay. yeah, that's all you hear. it's all you hear and you know, you know, all of you, the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan. it's pretty good. and so you guys about the deal with the taliban, good for peace. so is old. ok, well, i've got, you know, there, but i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new griffith. ok. because afghanistan was a 20 year griff, now this is a new grift. yeah. well, it is the, the problem, the problem with this is that obviously it's much bigger grid for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there will be, banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who were hoping for short, victoria, it's war. and it hasn't been that then now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water warfare and also of gas. stan was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't

really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate consequences not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with the, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because the, you know, dividing government tried blaming the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's for the 1st time in god knows how many years, certainly the wife, living memory, a conflict that's actually hitting home. however indirectly. and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's too absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some sort of, you know, government off the people in democracy. let me jump in here, dmitri, i'll glass 30 seconds. go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine?

well, my great fear is that it won't. okay. seemed yeah, yeah, that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to deescalate. right now we're talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands, get out into the streets and demand that our governments finally engage in a process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, exactly. yeah. i, yeah. well, you know that, that's the, one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy in listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion. as all the time we have many thanks, some i guess in washington, quebec, and wording. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember cross paths with

ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed? what will make you feel safer? isolation, whole prim unity. are you going the right way? where are you being led to some with direct? what is true, wharf is faith. in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows.

the joggers archipelago home of the to go san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you could go the med, g i to the u. s. government to make a military base and just deported or douglas and people from their country. so they call it returned back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm fight. we'll fighting for the right, so i, we do not consider the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle . since i don't the question of self determination, the legal advice we have received is actually the trickle. since we're not at all, not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do for the 10, the said committee to return back home. there is no support from the united nation

. i commission african united nish. i don't care about chug restaurant people. aah! ukraine and is weston buck? his reject rushes all for christmas trees and fire on gun. yes. 30 minutes after the proposed the spire. a violation of free speech and the rights of journalist for russia's foreign ministry calls the detention of the chief editor of sputnik with you and your news agency by all parties. in latvia, we have on the communications, director of clinical parent company devoted to the baltic states are requesting ground for lawlessness. the act either on direct instructions or in coordination with their superiors and european union. and in the u. s. a. n c. it russian sanctions backfire as the u. k face this.