suit dog dealt squatter his muscle, but i swear these look ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . russia in the west survived the cold war because both recognized and practice the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west has done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security guarantees. ah

cross sucking security guarantees. i'm joined by my guess. the boyish of mileage in washington, he is a blogger, and column is in quebec. we have dmitri last caught us. he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and in worth we crossed anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. all right, gentlemen, cross hak rolls in effect, that means you can jump in any time you want, and i always appreciated a boy should let me go to you 1st in the imperial city. um, this idea of indivisibility of, of security has been quite lost and ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and nato is just thrown that into the wind. and i would say that speed, and that is to be the result is a conflict we haven't ukraine though. no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west and the soviet union that came up with that logic. they kept the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead in the boucher. well this, do you are quite correct. was entered the call ended up preventing the cold war

from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red con, from history in the ninety's, amid this whole end of history, triumphalism that, that became the ideology. sure. in washington. and the helsinki process basically became a conveyor belt for the us to brow beat, other countries into doing its bidding. and this doctrine that wasn't quite so clearly formulated, but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the world is us. and everybody else has to do what they're told or else. and we saw what or else meant in 1999. when nato proceeded to attack you, then you was flavio without any sort of breaking you went charter its own charter to hell. think you charter all imaginable charters? it was privy to and it did that was just basically ok. we did it because we wanted to and what are you going to do about it?

and you know, 23 years later we are where we are. so it's one of those obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties to decide, but that has really never been the case. has it, it to me tree. i mean, it was a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees per europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he's obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me. is that the, does the german chancellor that those low security guarantees were in place before nato expanded? i mean it's, there is this sense of, of getting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri? well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the

starting point for history. that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s. hedge among the united states. government and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, it's beyond reasonable dispute. not only that europe signed onto the, know the notion of indivisible security and recognized that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something we're seeing today and very vivid and painful in a very, very painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns, the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum and russia, there was antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the

breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that. because the ice days decided that its status is the world sole superpower was at risk. and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost. exactly. one year ago, russia sent to nato in to washington to notes ultimatums, whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the security architecture is collapse. or that is that be something that could be possibly entertained now, maybe because we have mixed voices in europe. you know, there's no relationship, no future with russia that mccrory here in a got criticized for it said there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts,

anthony? well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amounts of distrust which has been caused by what's happened because as being rightly said from the 19 ninety's when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nato, even though they weren't in written format. ah, but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they chose early, massively expanded it, especially since the town of the century are. so it's been a complete our sense of distrust there, because why should the need russia, our trust and a p. p gland, nato. but i yourself to look at the situation office, see any country needs to have some security. and the united states wanted security where me had the cuban missile crisis. ready and you,

you have to look at what are the former president gorbachev said, ah, because he was the architects with our agreements between the old soviet union and the laser. and he said a, you may not humiliate a country and expect prayer where to be no consequences or the cause. there are consequences. good mis bachelor, fema really heights in russia, which is what's been happening now, but it's as though these agreements we had, ah, the helsinki, the, this, the structures we have in place to reduce tension. i have been totally ignored, as, as he said. and the voices for peace are shut down and are one of the objectives of gratian. nato is see supposed to be to protect freedom. but there's less freedom in the, in the west, at the moment about our free and open debate each. well, this whole issue,

and this is really impressive data, countryside conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points, again, there's no strategic tool, other interest in being involved in this conflicts or yeah. voice, i mean if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's, it's our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary. they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want to do that and, and we've been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right. well that the thing about europe and capital is, is that i see a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency, essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now,

they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden, because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the problem with the collective west is twofold. one, they can't under the they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they, you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful. rushing the ologist them. that literally translates us not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because, and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of the pop culture terms that everybody can understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that's needed to be done in the west, and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving

security guarantees to russia, which is about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been centuries at home and band, any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these fantasies that you know, once russia will lose things, we'll go back to, to the way they were before well, i've got a good news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict, which is that's not how these things work in dmitri, if russia is not granted security guarantees, it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri. again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia from which we seem to suffer in the last. we forget that the 2 had union, according to the 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences,

suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war, the 2nd one. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course, the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri dmitri, if i decide to point out collective west minus the u. k, at the time, it's really interesting. ok, because you have the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going. i'm sorry to interrupt. well, obviously this is a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean, these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers, the united kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet, we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on of

the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly under western border. and in lesson until we come to grips without reality. we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of nuclear. a nuclear i didn't dimitry, i'm gonna have to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentlemen. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantee. stay with our team. ah ah, ah ah

. ah nice hunter, russian state little narrative. i started as i'm phone and ignore santini, devastation, mckindoe's house not meet within the 55 when. okay, so 9 is the final speed you want. health problems. go ahead with weaver van in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machines. the state on to

russia for date and split. marquee spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube. interesting, patricia, did you think even close with me? i say welcome back to crap stock. were all things are considered? i'm peter bell to remind you we're discussing security guarantees. ah, let's go back to anthony and we're thing that, you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's her bowden to talk about what we're

talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that a european security architecture with not only excluded russia, but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're going to have peace in europe passed to be rectified. and given the voices that we're hearing in europe and in obviously, washington in london, we have all very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead anthony. yes, that's very 3, but we got to recognize what the real agenda is here. and i told him he got on to the american color tissue or sunday clock for a well, when she said the ukraine wool is all about regime change in russia, and it's not really about anything else. and it's about our godless vested interest . that late are too big about changes so that they get the country of russia ah, plays the game and the in the guy. but the sway. i know we need to look at what sub

president, pacing said in to thousands about europe because he said russia is passive european culture. and i cannot imagine my own country in isolation from europe and what we often coolly civilized. ready worlds so it is hard for me to visualize nature as an enemy. so i don't think a russia ever wanted a comb breaks or nature as an enemy. but we go, hinton powers, who have been trying to bring about this conflicts between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting if any not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family was visiting russia and improving relations between the u. k roster. and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us

johnson is actively war mongering, encouraging the suddenly of mo weapons and the bull aids to the bustle, bliss, pensive president said, i'm skis or ukraine. i and the u. k. and some other countries haggle blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which had been supplied to the ukraine, nevada ended up a year to bomb the civilians as well as only military casualties as well as right the fed. we've got a problem the, the went straight major in the rest of the year as well. he's not on debate. so the public does not actually know the truth. was this guy on the better the site? because now you're supposed to have the objectives of securing peace for managing co operation and guarding for

a nighttime staying none of those days in the crime and europe as a whole. well, the boy main stealth and berg makes it very existential. we must win. russia must be defeated. well, what happens in the reverse happens? the boy ship. how, how does nato survive? this, which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it's being proven. well nato's mission and according to its 1st secretary of general, who was a british peer, unlike suttonberg, who is an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that, and it has been beneficially doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously,

american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord, his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that don verbs in his infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have any respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato was a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in more than welcome to the consequences, the one big issue is that what we've discussed before is that it's not just storage limley amnesia. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people

in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg movies where the soviet union doesn't even exist. right. and unfortunately, i've, i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that, you know, give him another half a generation and they will have read conduct. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no, no voice. i don't know if you've noticed. i'm a big fan of the world that war series that came up 1974. i think it was, it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and if wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make, well, well, keep the memory of the war. authentic memory. dmitri, i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't, it's gradually. ok,

i find it in thinkable that nato will survive in any meaningful form. perhaps some rump of nato, confined to a core of states in western europe might survive this disaster from a reputation perspective. but we need those in this, in this sort of existential crisis. because it staked its credibility on total victory and ukraine, which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in february. because for example, nato committed, you know, extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources. apparently, the nexus of a trillion dollars to the war and f dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to taliban, who were armed with soviet era, small arms. nato. in the name of human rights in the doctrine of the responsibility protect doctrine which is abused. shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time. up until that point of time,

the most prosperous state in africa, needle bombarded serbia and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved, it's festering, and there could be war in kosovo. so when you look across the spectrum of nato intervention, what you see is one failed state in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring stilton berg and others, that every natal members spend 2 percent of its g d. p. on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether, even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront, including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment. that this is in a liter wore it because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here. but this isn't an elite agenda . yes, it definitely is

a we just had comments about the record of nights which has been one failure. in fact, of the one instance where they could have succeeded after i was son. i totally didn't grade different, but which i had 26 been in afghans. she'd been right city caisson standards for women and so on. i said they because they did a deal with the taliban. no, never lost a major battle with the tyler barry so that he conveniently left after this time to get enrolled in the crime lab. we have to process a wider picture and it's all very sad. other people in the event saw controlling what is happening. but we have to see a all past 2 are in all respects of countries feel involved in the crime

should encourage our governments to exit from those policies. and oh, but that would be appease men, munich, gay. yeah, that's all you hear. it's all you hear and you know, you know, all of you, the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan it. and so you guys about the deal with the taliban? good. very piece. so old. ok. well, i've got, you know, they're bunch, i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new gripped. ok because afghanistan was a 20 year griff, now this is a new grift. yeah. well, it is the, the problem, the problem with this is that obviously it's much bigger drift for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there will be, banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who were hoping for short, victoria, it's war. and it hasn't been that then now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water in warfare. and also

of gaston was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate consequences not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because the, you know, dividing government tried blaming the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's for the 1st time in, god knows how many are certainly the wife living memory. a conflict that's actually hitting home. however indirectly. and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's too absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some sort of, you know, government talk to people in democracy. let me jump in here,

dmitri, i'll glass 30 seconds. go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine? oh, my great fear is that it won't. okay. seemed yeah, yeah. that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to deescalate. right now we're talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands, get out into the streets and demand that our governments finally engage in a process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, exactly. yeah. i, yeah. well, you know that, that's the, one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy in listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion. as all the time we have many thanks them i guess in washington, quebec, and wording. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz,

see you next time. remember, cross blue . ah, ah . was this for you, melissa? and this will stream only nickos or not, but missile. you smile,

dental. what cold showed nathan understood, the dodger. nick was laquia and rhetoric national center course rush. yeah. them for it. and he always doing in house in that men. each was marty. was to someone like which if somebody in middle kenesaw policeman, us laugh so suddenly kit to look. so that'd be the doors. yeah. and which are fed in you'd see a chair. yeah, no more. so i've been glove in the see most dolly boys do not see talk louder cuz you'll be black. is lucky. i still didn't want to watch a loud duck made up. well, you'll be put the dump that you're not on that on it. not said i would show you that you know, nice. he's going to learn this link, wishing cargo, or slip, or veteran shoot dog, yelled squad, or he's mark floor, but i swear these took the

joggers archipelago home and she goes to san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago is now the location of very large u. s. military base, a u. s. government to make a military base and just devoted all of the people from their country. so they call it the returned back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm real fighting for the right. so i. c we do not consider that the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle seems i don't the question of self determination. the legal advice we have received is actually the chic options. we're not and are not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do for the 10 percent committee to return back home. there is no support from the united nation. i commission african united

michelle. don't care about checklist and people with moscow says the ukraine is continuing to fire on civilian areas despite the sci fi announced by russia orthodox christmas, which pier rejected lawlessness in europe. that's how the head of sputnik uses, parent company branded the detention of his chief at it's a lot via broadcast is accused by authorities of violating unsafe russian sanctions and his men, while the case prince harry reveals, he killed 25 telephone fights this to you for is enough gun is done, think they were just pieces to leave from the chess board with me to lie for my.