the national shiny or just the bar. when you get on with the ground up by the lose the low in welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle. the camry. shame has a nazi problem. it's western backer is don't want you to know about stepping vendetta and nazi collaborator is celebrated and ukraine is a national hero. however, the historical record is clear, been data and his associates are alleged to have committed genocide against poles and juice during the 2nd world war. the west is largely silent about this,

the processing ukraine. i'm joined by my guess. erin, good in philadelphia. he's a political scientist historian and author of american exception empire in the deep state. and in london, we cross a adrenal consulting. he is the founder of a consulting and a born affairs analyst. are a gentleman crossfire groves and a fact that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, let's go to london 1st one on january, 1st of this year the been data was his birthday was commemorated 100 and what? 14 years ago officially commemorated in the national par, parliament, parliament, and, and other official organs. and this is an atrocity. i mean, this is really what this regime is all about, but you'd never, are hardly ever here bothered in western media. i will point out that the,

the polish government strongly objected as they usually do, but it doesn't seem to have any impact. so this is a, is this the kind of regime that the west is, is protecting. it's going to london 1st. oh yes, i mean, quite recently, the chief of the ukraine, all forces has been supported on the social media by posting a picture of a sophia. and so next to the, on the portrait of the stuff on there, you got the set up with a note saying that the ukrainian, or the final and ultimate victory of ukrainian nationalism will be when the russian empire will cease to exist. so in my opinion, i think the west is using the very strong and prevailing nationalist movement and sentiment within the whole ukrainian

society in order to fight russia from, from the fall. and this is this, you know, the same script we've seen in i've gone on during the soviet era speaking just in ski was encouraging which i think to 5 in the name of god. 3 again, song against the soviets, and i think that the same template is being used here in ukraine where the losses are trying to, i mean, the west is trying to somehow re label as a fall right movement, which is not far right. but clearly us all do not see an ideology to fight or rush off until the last ukraine will die. so i think that the answer to your question is yes. well, let me go to erin here, because this is in a very curious here because the west,

the least officially its official narrative is that it's a be eminently against f. no nationalism but we have there supporting a regime in care of that is all about f know nationalism ok. as i drill is already pointed out. i mean, this is a, a tool and there russo phobic arsenal. it really has nothing to about to do about ukraine. has nothing to do about the fate of the ukrainian people, but it has everything to do about russia and they're willing to tolerate alter nationalist, ethnic nationalists, even fascist big rhetoric to, to achieve that end aaron. right, and i think that these hardcore nazi elements represent a minority of that western ukrainian population. but it really only take say, you know, a minority to be a pretty dangerous element in this society. and from the point of view of not just the russians, but the ethnic russians who have been part of ukraine, these are the worst elements in the, in the country that they live in. and it's,

they're, they're a very, it's a version of naziism that traces back to the nazis. and except that it's even more kind of focused on, on russians, armina it's, it's, which is a, for the people that are in, you know, if you look at that electoral mat from 2010 and you see the places that, that did not that were for the you know, the neutral candidate, it was, you know, around odessa and the don't bass, you see that this is a really divided country and the, the, the more hardcore elements in the west are have because you have an almost genocide or, well, i mean, they do have a genocidal ideology of storage towards russians. and so the idea of it's going to make it difficult to imagine how this can be you can reintegrate this country in any, in the way that it was before. so the nazi element is real. they really do downplayed in the west, especially once the war started. and this just goes back to the u. s. tradition of

backing. really anybody on the ground, whether it's mafia groups or g hottie groups? italian fascists, german nazi, we slipped up after the war, japanese ultra nationalists, basically, japanese fascists, korean, fascist ultra writers will use all these groups that we use and there and i would even throw, throw in the $31.00 flavors of jihad ism, in syria. for example, you know, supporting the worst the elements here. let me go back to adrian. i mean, you've already used the word in the program. i think it's really appropriate. rebranding the battalion, for example, you know, and it was very curious, very few people in western media commented on it landscape was asked this a few months ago. what about these battalions and ultra nationally said they are who they are. i mean, he didn't even try to football a guy farm. that's who they are. that's what they are. and everybody knows that we know that a congress during the trump era, you know,

when appropriations were being made there, were congress members saying, no, we can't give money to these group that was law. and then under the, under the, by the ministration, it was changed. you know where you can fund these people know, one can claim they don't know about this. and if you go prior to 2014, a lot of these figures that are in places of power. they were condemned by the european union. but the european union says nothing, now it's go back to london. oh, yes, i say true. i mean, this, we go back to, i don't know, one or 2 years ago in, i mean, the western mainstream media was required to, you know, open about the noisy problem and you cry, even the atlantic council, which is broke, is about a russian question. so there's no doubt about it. also we have to bear in mind that the very prominent journalist polish jewish journalists in, in poland,

can start to give it was the writing for many years for a book, which is a very famous and very popular newspaper in poland. resign due to the fact that very editorial board of the. busy of the newspaper was forcing him to re brown the neo nazis, and he was assisting to call, sped, sped, neo nazis, to rebrand them too far. right. so i myself of jewish heritage and i don't feel all right with what is happening. and there is a lot of talking among the jewish population in poland and in united kingdom as well as those who are trying to somehow go against a mainstream. they read being label, you know, disloyal to, i mean i'm loyal to the history of my family. i'm loyal to the tragedy that happened in all the polish soil when the german nazi occupied

opponent and my ancestors in the ghetto, in august and friends of mine, are put in gas chambers. so i'm loyal to the, to the history of my family and the history of part of my family. so i don't quite get why, you know, book image and he's, he's being legalized. and somehow, you know, he's a color coast denial. if we go back to the pair research articles from 2020, written by the exec goes a book. he published very, very important article in the journal called eastern european politics and society where he called the genocide in a holocaust. so people like on many cools,

a former ambassador of ukraine to germany now has been promoted to be my yes he's, he's been promoted and he's a and he's a v p. 40 minutes. and you great. so he's a holocaust deniers. is something like this would happen in, i don't know any european country, trust me, the media, the mainstream media to politicians will destroy me. but i don't, i do all that address and it will be, you know, they're, they're going to hold a call. there's a higher cause here. ok, and i me go back to aaron here they're willing, perfectly willing to accept the holocaust deniers, if it, um, i advances their agenda to have the collective west attack russia that that's perfectly acceptable to them. they have no moral scruples whatsoever. aaron. right, i mean, this just gets into the a morality or morality of the pinnacle of the american elite. if you

look at the fascists in the 1st place, mussolini got $100000000.00 loan from j. p. morgan. and henry loose of time magazine sort of wrote a glowingly about him at the time. john foster dulles, representing people connected to sullivan cromwell's law firm. he brokered a large bond sale internationally for the german nazi regime under adolf hitler, which helps germany to re arm. and the idea was that this was a, a bulwark against the commune, russian communism and the u. s. it was the u. s. that was, and standard oil that was selling all the oil to the japanese when they were sweeping across, you know, up through, up to the point where they invaded fridge into china. so they were fueling these japanese wars in, in china, especially. so we supported them then, and then we turn to get them to basically take over the fascists parts of the of

the global empire and really make japan and germany into satellites and so on. but we scoop up a lot of these nazi's and file button, but here and i thought it was about democracy. sorry, i didn't know this here. ok. it's all about democracy versus a top chrissy. that's what we're all told here. know, and we both of my gets here are giving the, the real that, you know, pulling away the layers and saying really what the truth is. and the in the western publics have to learn more about this. if they don't, they don't have a moral conscience. i'm going to jump in here gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our to the i ah ah

ah o is your media reflection of reality in a world transformed what will make you feel safer? tice, elation for community. are you going the right way or are you being led to somewhere? direct? what is true? what is faith in the world corrupted? you need to descend a join us in the depths will remain in the

shallows with business and you will clean them a bit daily that was chosen. yeah. americans, grey, you, when you go to it is just such not critical to not ceiling in provide you with stuff such and sure. ruckel him, his name is your factor of the difference student until the child would use her own the with them, the pro and you're still with her job to yours are both in the study. she was on distribution for each of to watch. so it was for me to on, on all kinds of good it which, which no longer you bullshit. just in the solution i pushed to sustainable remote because of loose new or your porcelain useful code. i don't know who steve you're

going to know for the doesn't or is that a do use for us to put in finance is come on both the welcome back across stock where all things are considered. i'm peter le belcher manager, were discussing ukraine in the okay, now were joined by carla nixon in washington. he's a political analyst. welcome to the program. in the 1st part of the program, maryland, we talked about the intentional white washing of fascist and neal pash. it's elements in ukraine focusing on the personality of stuff and been data where, whose birthday, the $104.00 foot 14th was celebrated officially by the ukrainians on the 1st of the, of the year. but you know, one of the things that, you know, the,

one of the reasons why this whitewash can continue is because the west does not want to come to terms with the illegal to take over of power in february of 2014. that is, the origins of the erin was right in the beginning of the program saying, you know, these are a minority of people. yes. but they are in very powerful positions and they have very, very powerful backers in the west. ok, so i mean without a honest discussion about what happened with the illegal takeover of power in february 2014 and who were never going to get anywhere because the, this was the, they were the storm troopers quite literally a, bringing that your legal process to fruition garland well, and you know, it's far worse than that. the united states has a position. the u. s. empire shall i say, has a position here that it must hide from its people. the information war of the united states is one that is used to hide from the actual american people. the truth here, the reality is your correct. there is a minority of the far right fastest,

still growing at the behest of the united states. and that by the support of the united states, but the actual numbers of people in the ukraine who are far right fast just aren't as high as many would think. however, they derive their power from the u. s. empire. empire, they were empowered after 2014, they were integrated into the military after 2014, when the u. s. took over. so the u. s. is fighting in information war 2, mainly to ensure that the american people cannot look at this conflict through historical context. because that would expose the extremely immoral in an unethical position that the united states is in here. you know, erin, if you about to go back to our guest and philadelphia, well, you know that there's the narrative. is that suddenly unprovoked? on february 20, a february of last year, russia invaded ukraine. that's the western narrative. but the origins of this conflict go all the way back to 2014, with the illegal takeover of power against the unicode which government and what

was the 1st thing the, the co government did they passed very stringent anti russian language laws? no wonder the people of the don bass said wear out here and the people in crimea said exactly the same thing. they were the ones that voted for, you know, coach in the 1st place. this narrative never makes it, and it doesn't even make the 13th paragraph. and what is very rarely mention is the 8 years prior to february of last year. up to 15000 people died in the don bass and they were killed by the care of government backed by the west. go ahead era, right. think who is of 20? 14 is the key moment to understand what has happened here. and invariably gets lied about in the u. s. media if i don't know anyone who has a long time observer of the u. s. foreign policy and especially of the clandestine state and who is looked extensively at the cruise and over those over the years.

who has not come to the conclusion that made on was a u. s. operation. they had all the same basic elements that they used to oversee the government of iran in 1953 massive street protests, false like violence. and then key officials who were bribed and on the side of the cooper waters. so this is very straightforward. i mean it's even more obvious in this case because you had the secretary of state department official, victoria knew and passing out cookies to anti government protesters. it's fairly straightforward and it's never discussed. and so the debate in the u. s. is kind of a make believe debate to the extent that there is a debate and it's which is normal. and in the u. s, it really is a top down policy making system as far as, especially as far as foreign policy goes. and academics who point this out as a guy, i've been catching off ski at the university of ottawa and he had a paper that went through peer review and was set to be published. and,

and editor basically stepped in and said, no, this is we can't publish this for political reasons basically. so this is a, it's a tablet thing in the west. and it just means that the debate in the west is a make believe debate. yeah, it's all make me a real, you know, when i, when i mentioned to people about the minsk accords, i get a blank look. well, what's that? ok. it sounds like propaganda them is because no one is ever educated about them whatsoever. but like i said, this conflict has been going on for going into 9 years right now. and that is the context that it has to be put into. and, and we have to be very fair here. when the russians warned the west that this was going to happen, they repeatedly warned that they would take measures to counter the west expansion of nato up to its doorstep, and it was completely ignored. what i'm saying, a drill. there's a hell of a lot of context here that never makes it into the public debate in the west. well,

the interesting piece of that you mentioned means agreements. but i'm sure the other part of this, and you're so aware that recently i'm going to merkel and give an interview and the and, and how long you can holler francois molanda also. well, a whole lot gave an interview to kids independent. 3 just confirming what she said in her interview, and basically she said that from the very beginning it was a good spot. they knew that they need to give some time to that you are in the military. and the last is, you know, that there are a strength for the position. these are v a, russia, so we, i think the russian people and so many people in the west are quite naive in thinking that certain agreements are worth, you know, being, you know, i mean,

the politicians in the west are trustworthy in the way that if they make an agreement, disagree will be broken, but she confirmed in this interview. done any, any agreement with the way it's well. i mean it's in 2014. they already knew that dismiss agreements don't mean anything to, to the west side into the ukrainian side. they were just deceiving a. 2 russia, so how the russian federation can trust with it in the future. in my opinion, there's no trust and these it reckless interviews, because if you are a lawyer at least try to just prolong and keep home lying. but don't say out loud, because at the moment france and germany are discredited, in my humble opinion. well, i mean, gentlemen, to all, to my 3 gas and to my audience here, that's why this conflict is going to end very differently than the west expects.

because russia does not have an interlocutor, they can trust because we have repeated lies. that's what is going to make ending this conflict, which it will end. but it will be with almost no input from the west for the reasons that address this just and garland let me go to you. i mean the west is supporting, fascist, and best stick elements in ukraine. ok. but i find it, my friend very, very peculiar that in the context of like the american politics. you know, it's so easy for people to say, he's a bashes. he's a fact, you know, even a, trump b, all of this stuff here. i don't want to get into domestic american politics, not right now, but it's, i find it really b q year that how easy people will throw the term around as a slur. but they won't even open their eyes to see real fascist in ukraine. but the us in support again, funding garland, i do think there's some level of wilful, willful ignorance and of course in the american court of law,

willful ignorance is treated as knowledge. it's treat if you, if you, if a court find that you are willfully ignorant and then you are treated the same as if, you know, and so the responsibility is there in the united states, as people struggle with these 2 realities in that they, you know, joe biden comes out and says, i'm running because of charlottesville and i'm fighting against the nazis and we've got to stop. not even of course, we're sending unlimited much money to not, not these. and then people have to say, well, there are no nazi there. of course, there's all this information and data all around. so again, the importance of the information war here against the american people, is to ensure that the american people don't come to grips with the reality of what they're facing. however, i'm here in the united states. i'm telling you i do radio and both coast all over the place. i can tell you that is changing. i can tell you that the questions are starting to get louder, and particularly with the economic pain that americans are,

are up against. so while it may appear based on the mainstream media and what our politicians are saying that the american people have no clue and are going along locally. there is a growing contingent of americans who are highly suspicious of what's going on. and the pushback has started. i don't know how long the neocons can hold onto this disaster to this tiger that they have by the tail that they can't let go. and they can't hold onto, you know, aaron rapidly running out of time. but when russia started, it's a special military operation in ukraine. it said it had 2 objectives, the demilitarization of ukraine and d, not super cation of ukraine. the need denot vacation element was in the west could not comprehend, but it's easy to comprehend that the, the regime in care of is not a mental walker that the russians take seriously. it's because they're completely dependent on the west. and the only way they're not people that you can trust. lensky ran as president as a, as a peace maker. and he was cowed by these fascist battalions. and this is where

we've ended up. go ahead aaron. yes i understand that he was one of his big backers was a an oligarch who is also a big a soft founder. so you have to wonder how much, how lockers, holla mo, sky yes. go ahead. yeah. you have to wonder how much they ever intended to achieve it, to let him achieve his support, you know, promise, mission of peace here. but i think that a, a bigger maybe a more fundamental issue here is that a historical understanding of fascism where in the u. s absorbs not just the jap, not just japan and germany as the ends of it, sort of global empire, you know, axial ends on each side of the razor. but also it takes, they're not, they're fascist personnel and some of the worst butchers of that regime. and to re purposes them against no communist china and soviet union and

this so in a way it takes up the fascist project of domination of the globe. blood bio, you know, imperialist. i had him on and, well, you know, here or where i am. but the you that with the russian people thought they different . they had defeated fascism in europe 70 years ago. they feel like they have to do it again. and kind of echoing your thoughts there gentlemen, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests and watch it in philadelphia and in london. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at archy. see you next time. remember rostock with with the 1st time in history, any time countries culture has been cancelled. the very modern with cancel culture,

really desperate wonderful lucille mala. so when will you get? i said in the one it was the glue. the phrase now particularly refers to counseling russian culture yet them know what to create the few orders that i give to william . i was booked sure, which will be all that is chill. i live with zillow that go with the most of the bridge for london, the them we what rushes created over the past 1500 years. there's no question actually condemned, reviled and rejected. here sort of like a bill of bill, there's a lot closer. i want to hold all the time, i guess it'll show all the list. joining total condemnation gross daily and now includes dostoevsky to cascade shostakovich that i need to you a quick tour left. but yes, she says that what the time will you do?

obama lee? you're not going to look it up with a wrong one. i just don't move out date because the advocate an engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves well, the part we used to look for common ground. oh, well, never be a victory for russia. wait solutions, you will. you wait unless you lay newton or them, but you look at a meal. crane war is a proxy war. this is

a war between russia and the united states. naz, oman on media comes to not should get done in carbon dioxide. america forces are, and you're not in your gage, in conflict with russian forces. the american forces are here to defend nato ally. what happens if nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war when you put them up? so that was a dealership and that was a 1000 is my store. i see it. i see your to us thinking costliest. go to me with so you sleep. he should weakened yourself to with almost them. let's see what he lives at home in his thoughts foolish there in your sewage. never speak of the girl who's.