i think it's amazing to see people share, right, because as men we talk about being strong unami, everybody wants to be strong, man, but you know, we might be physically strong, but you know, are we emotionally weak? my son got incarcerated here. and i learned my biggest fear was and he goes back into what he had on the board about memory. mama says gray phrase is charles policy. and he said, your son used to say he wish you could come to prison just so he can be with you. in that moment i said, this is what you've left your child m,

this woman and your family to to do. they say, you said if you are thinking you is dead, you never too old to find that peace, which will children which yourself. mm hm. this prison is me into more like always call a blank canvas and a beautiful landscape. mm. i think that there are a lot of things that we can accomplish here. if you give an opportunity. mm. ah, everybody's watching everything they do. everywhere they go everywhere they gather . they have to really, really, really b up up or to make this happen. they have to worry about be

a put in the whole they have to worry about being moved to another prison depending on how hard a push they don't wanna be too vocal. because they don't want to be signal out as a security risk because they're being vocal about something that they want to learn . they can move them at any time. they could be take, you know, just rolled up and moved to another facility at any time for any reason. there's nothing i can say or do about it. i'm pretty sure they still, doubtless, all the way up to this point. but you can't argue with our results. that's the thing that you can argue. cameras in every classroom, by soon as we got a classroom camera start coming up in the exam because it was like, okay, well we got to see exactly what's happening, but as good. not only put a camera in here, you can come and sit in our classroom when you learn to with

maturity in capacity to use ones intelligence without the guidance of another. what is conveying is that no one, not even in one, our government can impede enlightenment, of the public. okay. okay. i thought it was, i thought it was difficult read pull. i thought it was a career. that's what i dress up for from the moment. i'm not sure if i'm right or wrong, but this is my life. and so, and it's not about right or wrong, it's about interpretation. no one can say, if your interpretation is wrong, we don't have a married will. can't hear to be able to ask them, what did you mean by this? and you have english scholars literary scholars will try to explain to you what somebody live 20300 years ago. literally meant when they don't know. what am i gathering from this? and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters is what you're gathering, right? because there's a lot of people here who under the idea that we are kind of exceeded our boundaries

as prisoners and somebody's mind to you if somebody is in the i'm always been so scared about how i looked on the death of corey, how him being a young college kid and me being just, you know, some move hoodlum from tacoma, how anybody would be able to kind of see the person that i've become or my manager that's something that's always been a fear of mine. nobody was really ever give me a chance. the washington state does not have wiped up a role in the early 19 eighties. what it replaced parole with was determinant

sentences. in other words, i'm going to send you to a period of time and it cannot be reduced, doesn't matter what you do in prison. that's your sense. washington has started to figure out that system is not very jobs, but it doesn't work. and so they've started to bring parole back. actually brought girl back for sex offences. and the other group is juvenile is kemati, had committed the crime. 61 days earlier, 2 months passed his 18th birthday. he would have been a juvenile, can he be eligible for parole to the problem with punishment? the problem with setting a life without parole sentence. for somebody who was 18 years old at the time of the crime, you don't know who he's going to be 20 years. ah, it was never really something that i was intending to have while i just got curious

. i because there was a lot of people who are actually going home to crunch. the 1st thing i did is i've kind of started writing letters system attorneys about what was a possibility. but then a week, you know, he sent me a letter and told me to call he said that during my clinic it would be something that he will be willing to do. today we filed a clemency petition with the washington state clemency board. its a formal request asking for a commutation of commodities sent, asking the governor to change his life sentence to essentially credit for time sir, to let him go. the different family members that have been to prison and seen him even some went and spoke with him. different people were telling me he's changing. he's trying to be

a better person, but their plan wasn't ready to accept then. ah, i had thought about reaching out to him. i start to write them and then i throw it away. i did that probably, maybe 6 or 7 times. and then i just said, okay, forget it. ah, probably 6 months after that, killarney send me a message. i read it. me rated a couple times over and over. i let my family members read it. my grandmother, she raised me from the time i was 6 months old and she always instilled in as a spirit of forgiveness. and he had asked me for my forgiveness in his message that he said to me. and so i told him i said, ah, i forgave you

a long time ago, i didn't, i'm not going to forget what happened. and so, but i forgave you. as i understand the challenges you may have had growing up and i'm not excusing her behavior. but i forgive, you said not only am i for giving you for what you did, i have to forgive you to allow myself to lavon and to heal. ooh, well will. he was in prison. his daughter was murdered. she was 3 and a half his oh, when she was murdered, the lady that beat my granddaughter to death. i forgiven her. she didn't have the tools to be a mother. she grew out in such a violent atmosphere and was in a gang when she was 11. and so when she had my grand daughter,

she wasn't capable of showing love art. she didn't have, she didn't know how. and so in an angry drug, addicted rage, she beat my granddaughter today and i'll always miss the nyah and i would be 23 years old now what i want her to have a 2nd chance, you know? because i feel like she never had a chance. i remember when i was in olympia fighting for this bill. i mean, i was a mother trying to fight for her son in time for people to get out. i'm carol. but all these victims came in a 2nd, and i thought, you know, well after the victims who you know, and i thought, you know, well, maybe next time we go to fight for this bill. a be a victim supporting the bill where they got to say i'm a victim and i am against this bill. i'm going to be, i'm a victim and i'm for this bill. now, we are in this dichotomous, either victim or you're a perpetrator. it's not true. victims are perpetrators,

perpetrators of victims. and we have to get to a place where we understand we're all victims of this system. i've had a son who was murdered and i have a family that had different ideas about what justice meant and what they wanted to come out of that process. and i think that had, i not had the experience that i've had it with the black prisons caucus over 20 years. ringback i may or may not have had the same feeling about that, but i was able to immediately forgive. it requires that we look historically when we contextualize what has happened. so that it's not just, i did something to you or you did something to me. there's other environmental things that are pushing our behavior, impacting our behavior to each of us has the capacity, the unfortunate capacity to do terrible things. if the wrong set of circumstances are presented, we need to get to

a place in this country where people kind of tone for their actions, where the hand of forgiveness can be extended. the prisons are not institutions that detail. the good things that happen in prison. that every once in a while, prison official recognizes that an individual has accomplished something that deserves being talked about in commodities case. a prison official told me that commodity had done more in terms of race relations in prison. and anybody who had ever worked at that prison, that included professional staff. ah, we submitted our petition with a great deal of hope because we felt that commodity had satisfied somewhat vague

standard of showing extraordinary circumstances. merit team a change in his sentence. i think that is more about them being able to, to the commodity that i've become and not the commodity that i watch. so i think that they deny me as because they haven't got past that point me a call not be charged for this. call this call is from an inmate at correction center was calling will be recorded and monitored if you was to brock anything to cause of this nature dial 7. now to accept this call press 5. now to decline this call. hey, thank you lou . ah ah

ah ah ah

oh no no, no changes. i do not want to prison or wash myself in prism ah letter worse must i don't want to lose faith only to cheer more along. what you dorn because you're helping the next person get out of jail and katrina. stay out of jo to be about her father, san brother, personal society ah global shadow, only you locked up which of my interest is in people like commodity, who worked on rehabilitation and who've been told by the system, you will never get out. it does not matter what you do in prison,

it will make no difference in terms of where you die. i want to be able to say yes, it will. because i believe that somebody like community makes our community a better community. ah, ah, this is that they're all on the same dis them different stages of right so, so this only works yes for that one's really, really. right. and there are several that term proposal just different varieties i was released in june. i was at work release until november 5th. during that time i worked went to school and now i am still on monetary community custody. and i live with my family. i'm just trying to,

ah, you now. ah, tree wills, it's all free or is not equitable. so if you have the resources to have 5 options open to you and i have the resources to have to open to me, how free am i to really choose? and as long as society debbie's up opportunity and resources where a certain kind of person has 5 and another kind as to for nothing except for superficial characteristics that are outside of an individual's control. it will be society's fault that prisons are fool society. the state, the government institutions, all these words that we're,

that are big and morphis that, that we're trying to trying to make in this concrete thing that has power over us is us. and we are complicit in our own captivity as long as we don't know that they are us with our tuesday about is were why are we get about justice right? what is justice? i'm with what council mind when we hear the word justice one person with more co room

with. mm hm. okay. was oh, corrosion call room of prison for brendan operation. oh, i mean i don't wanna fail, but you guys are being a little bit negative, right? because justice is related to all the bad the the has has happened was right. so yeah, of course we, can we go with the negative, right? because of all of these there. i mean, go room. well, been in a corner, most of us have negative experiences when it comes to just do a justice system. yeah. ready okay, so, so let me, let me make kind of rephrase that. when i, when i think of just is i think this classroom by year and,

and in teach my in general with all the class is doing. if, if dor nature justice i, at some point in life there was something that was missing from marcell opportunity that we never had. right? so by i was gonna pitching the chair, somebody knew something that can empower us. i think he's doing the church just. mm hm. jesse says the penalty or reward for one's actions, i say penalty or reward because justice can be serving a good way or so. i just want to make sure that everything that i do understand is wrong, eventually come back on me some shape or form. and that to me is just the, the good things that i do, we've actually come back to me in a go and, and bad things. i do actually come back to me in a bad way. it's about integrity for me or so i just think that justice is always watching justice is it is in a thing dislike. you know, if you,

if you break the laws of the land, you'll be locked up. that's a small part of justice. but just this is even bigger than that just as she control to the things that you're doing when nobody else is watching. awesome justice has to be individualized. justice has to ask, how is the community harms and how can we make it better? and what role should this individual have in making that community better? just that's a tough one. i'm not certain knowledge, no injustices. justice. i'm not sure if i ever thought about that much just to our part in the system. and then the next part had to do their part the, the lawyers on both sides in judges. but i would still feel good about the bar. i

did a this is matt about a prison education program. and to be very clear, it is not about the department of corrections at all. they just geographically happened to be a press there. they could be oppressed anywhere else in the community. ah, it's a trip because we got some class issues going on. there are many of us who do not believe that people are in prison, could have the answers to our problems. ah, we do not believe that the people sleeping under the bridge can have the answers to their reality. ah, because we have people with ph. d and master's degrees, who then have been certified to do that work. and they have been doing it over and over and over and over and over again. i'm in a, in a system where we've had

a 10 year plan that is now turned into a 20 year plan. they just change a name and it's gang, those brothers, no gang. so for all the classes that we offer this, um, we can't wait just for people in prison, aaron's children have the solutions to our problems and what we will do it 10 years . if we don't attend to this, we'll be visiting some mom. i will put that on your babies, but it's really the truth. not think it's not true blue because they got the deal. see the deal t bed with the chechen center, the juvenile system, everybody's in the business. ah. and then wait for the education system to fail. our babies so that they go in there. mm. that i don't want to blame deal. see, because it took a whole lot of institutions to get them there. we bail,

we fail them in spite of that they've got the flu. ah, them the mirror that we did not kill me the me i that, that fear that the genocide that occur the genocide of people in that queue. ah

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me release a russian state marriage. i've gone in the north lansky game on the 55 been okay, so i need to be the one else because we will been in the european union, the kremlin machine, the state russia today. and even our video agency, roughly all brand on youtube said with

the joggers archipelago homer, the cio san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago, is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you get given med div i to the u. s. government to make a military base and just deported or douglas and people from their country so they can return back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm real fighting for the right. so i, we do not consider the right to self determination. actually applies to the trickle students and on the question of self determination, the legal advice we have received is actually the chic options. we're not and are not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do. a full the tumbler said committee to return back home. there is no support from the united nation. i commission african

united nish. i don't care about chug or send people ah federal bureau of investigation or f. b. i certainly has had its share of whistle blowers over the years f b i. agents have come forward to tell the public about legality in the f b. i laboratory for example, about racism and hiring and promotion. and about the violation of americans, civil rights and civil liberties. today's guest is perhaps the most important whistleblower ever to come out of that organization. will tell you her story and she'll tell us about the current state of the most important law enforcement organization in america. i'm joined curiosity and you're watching the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2