return back home, there's no supplies from the united nation ice mission. the initial don't care about chug or some people ah, to the federal bureau of investigation or f b, i certainly has had its share of whistleblowers over the years. f b i. agents have come forward to tell the public about the legality in the f b. i laboratory for example, about racism and hiring and promotion, and about the violation of american civil rights and civil liberties. today's guess is perhaps the most important with of lower ever to come out of that organization will tell you her story. and she'll tell us about the current state of the most important law enforcement organization in america. i'm john curiosity and you're watching the whistleblower. 2 2 2 2 pauline rally joined the f. b i in 1981. just after finishing law school. after

assignments in new york and abroad, she took up a position at the f. b. i field office in minneapolis, minnesota, where she became the chief division counsel and where she taught constitutional law to other f. b. i. agents, and to police officers. following the attacks of september, 11th, 2001 rally wrote a paper for then f b. i director robert muller saying that f b i personnel in the organization's headquarters in washington dc had mishandled the information provided by the minneapolis field office regarding zacharias, mas sally, a suspected terrorist who had been involved in preparations for a suicide attack. similar to september, 11th way back in 1994. she identified failures in them was our investigation that left the united states vulnerable on september 11th in may, 2002 rally was called to testify before congress. and before the 911 commission, about the f. b, i's pre 911 counterterrorism lapses that testimony led to

a major reorganization including the creation of a new f b i office of intelligence and the hiring of a significant number of f. b. i. agents with critical language skills in 2002, rally was name time magazines person of the year, along with 2 other whistleblowers. colleen rally. welcome to the show. colleen tell us what life was like in the f. b, i in that period around the september 11th attacks. so much was going on, the conventional wisdom is that the f b, i would react to just about any threat to the united states, especially one being raised by a senior f b. i agent like you. why did f b, i headquarters not act on the information that you and your colleagues had developed? that information was pouring in? not actually directly to myself, because i was the legal council who basically gave legal training constitutional law training to the agents. but it was coming in that summer, and i think that is what alerted the agent in his supervisor to how suspicious it

was when to whistle blowers from a suburb suburban white school call be f b i. they were whistleblowers. they went against their own employer to let the f b. i know that they had the most suspicious flight student they had ever seen. and i think that the reason why that triggered these agents into immediate action was because they had seen some of these earlier memos that that had been coming in. and you know what, what later the 911 commission said that the, that the, the intelligence community's hair was on fire and that the system was blinking red . so that summer, beginning maybe in late spring summer, there was a lot of intelligence flowing in and it didn't come to me because i was the legal council. but the other agents that the investigating agents did see that it's on usual for whistleblowers information to result in such momentous change like yours

did your revelations resulted in a reorganization of the f. b, i itself, you became a public figure even making the cover of time magazine. how did your colleagues react to that? and more importantly, how did your superiors react? well, the immediate consequence of my was so boring memo to moller to the inspector general to the joint intelligence committee. actually. i mean, i, i put it to 3 or 4 different entities, thinking that, you know, somebody might read it. i was actually not even optimistic that it would be read by the actual senators. so i was surprised when i heard afterwards. it's that it had been read and you know, in, in that particular time period um, some of the agents knew ok. the lower ranking agent. certainly the ones investigating the suspicious terrorists, a suspect in minneapolis. they were on it on my side for getting that information

out because headquarters had not been telling the truth about it. so going back to, to what your question was, you know, the, the, the f b i lower ranking people who kind of do the work. we're on my even the agents association. we're on the side of getting the truth out about this. for starters, you can't fix the problem unless you tell the truth. why was this intelligence not connected? i mean, that was the number one big thing and certainly it's even what the 911 commission later said. they said, well, they didn't connect the dots. that was their, their diagnosis. but my memo did league ok. i was, i was happily surprised. it did lead to an inspector general d o j inspector general investigation for almost 2 years. it took almost 2 years long. it's like 40500 pages that describe the 3 missed chances at least 3 in the f b i. and why were, why was this intelligence not shared?

ok, now we later find out that even bad i g, our investigation was incomplete. and we also find out that some of the agents were told not to tell the truth to the inspector general. but i have to take some credit that my mellow did directly lead to that inspector general investigate, you know, whether it led to great changes in the f, b. i, the overhaul of the computer system. you know, that was maybe maybe i had a 10 gentle my, my information in my testimony to the judiciary committee. because i actually touched on the computer system that did not allow agents to actually do the searches are very easy, almost could not do searches in the if you could believe that before 911. and there was this big overhaul, but it was also a boon dog where there was failed contractors that failed to, to set up effective computer systems. there's been, there was

a whole bunch of water under the bridge on the computer system. and i think after $911.00, because the budgets all increased so much, i think frankly, they were looking for opportunities to spend money. so maybe my, my memo wasn't all that important even for the computer overhaul. because they that, that point, it was well known that the f, b i's, a computer system was completely r cain or cake and they had to change it. but you know, for what it's worth. there was a bit more investigation following my memo. and as you know, john, that's actually something in this day and age, you know, usually somebody's information to, the higher authorities just gets completely quashed. i mean, they just, you know, push it under the rug, they fire the whistleblower. so i was lucky in that respect that at least something happened. one of the most interesting aspects to your case is that you blew the whistle at the f b i not just once but twice in 2003. you wrote another letter to director

moller. in which you said that the f b, i quote, would not be able to stem the flood of terrorists that will likely head our way in the week of an attack on iraq, on quote, history has proven you correct. but the bush administration went forward with its attack on a rock anyway. how did the invasion change the f b i and did your revelations inspire other f b i. agents to come forward? well, just as a little further background, it was f b i then director moller, who had told me on the eve of my testimony to the, to the judiciary committee in june of 2002, he had said, you know, co wayne, he was trying to co opt me so i would would not go to critical of the f b i. when i testified the next day. and he said, colleen, i'm critical minded like you. and if there's ever anything like this that you spot ever again, please come to me 1st. and so when you get to february of 2003,

and of course now that the government is for the military's voice to invade iraq. there it turns out later that the media was told that they were going to be embedded and they all switched over to being warhawks, etc. so when this occurs in february, what do i do? i wrote a memo to f b, i director muller. in fact, mahler was shilling for the war in congress. he was saying that, you know, saddam, it was connected just to 911 and he was at least implying that and you know and saying that there was weapons of mass destruction. he was part of it. and so i wrote him this, this lot, this memo, and i knew that this was not going to play nearly as well as the 1st one. because by that time war fever had developed. and of course in the f b i, which is kind of a want to be military mode. and so every nearly everyone i knew was pro war by the

time you get to february. so i knew that the agents association would not be supporting anyone who had so you know, had no worries about invading iraq. and of course that's what happened afterwards. i was forced to step down from my, my legal position that i had held for 13 years before that for, for over 13 years i had been the legal council. but the, you know, people said, oh, we can't trust you because you're against the war in iraq. so i, i stepped down from that into the stay i, my pension is, is reduced because i went down grade level and i, and then of course it was very difficult before i retired. i had to really take on some unpleasant assignments. assignments that i knew would be later, they could say, oh, colleen raleigh did this wrong, et cetera. one of which, by the way, is inform an operation. so i became one of the informing coordinator and all 50

some offices of the api. i got criticized for inform it handling after the whitey bolger. so it was well known that the informant thing was a complete mass. so and i ended up doing that for a year before i retired by the way, just to make it to retirement eligibility. and you know, the, the f b i, i'll say one more thing about after 911 they, they used to hire people that were of diverse backgrounds. you know, like myself, i was on the law. they had people in science. i had a friend who was actually a dentist, a mortician, there were people of all different backgrounds and it was a good thing because it brought different expertise to the f. b, i will after 911. really. they started focusing solely on hiring military officers . former military and of course ideally, military intelligence officers in the f, b i and a large portion of the f b i 's new hires were very much in this war mold because that's where they were

coming from. so that was one change after after not after the war on iraq. of course i retired at the end of 2004 and all i know about the other changes in the f b. i was what i see in the papers now. and of course, one of the things is the politicization of the, of the i, it's been used as a kind of upon a mini, higher level officials seem to have become ponds of the ruling political party. probably because they see revolving doors at the end of the day, and they see how brannon and all of these other, you know, high level people to go back and forth between government and to these great, you know, doubling and tripling their salary. and so, so of that, of course, that became the case in the f b i and it became highly politicized. that was though, after i had already retired. thank you, calling rally. when we come back we ask former f

b. i special agent colleen rally about today's f. b i and the role of whistleblowers there. how has the atmosphere changed for f b? i whistleblowers, stay tuned. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah we all came out together. we were all supposed to go home together. it didn't happen. and it just shot after shot after shot, the shot. derrick was asking, where is corey? where's course you could hear them say, d, o a at the see. so we knew he was gone, my name is kamani carter, and i'm currently starting the license for

a gang related job ought to have been 9 years ago. my big lasana. she was also a student who was attending college. his name is corey pittman. very young kids, it seems we're getting involved and renders violence. 20 to 30 years ago. i think there's no question that the kitchen cripps from ballet came up here and seated this area. all my friends was either in prison now forever or day. probably because got you 7 years with just wanted to hear us motion of them on you. thought it home

you. i mean you really above us. he was there now go to following up with my listen look a do you live muscles? if you look for the initial be one of club not to get a dealer post on zillow wanted to be almost can use to put value with who did origin. but you also the, with the done a similar to like one to on the billing system that i lose you. but i see these teeny buses. the little gear limitation says nice to numbers, the. 2 welcome back to the whistleblowers. i'm john kerry, uncle republican, congressman james jordan, released a statement saying that his office had been approached by 14 f. b. i whistleblowers

who have complained to him that the f b. i has become politicized at the top of the organization. the complaints of these f b i agents have been met with skepticism around washington. they've complained about how they were ordered to investigate parents who challenged school administrators at school board meetings. they complained that they were punished for participating in what became a riot on january 6, 2021. and they complained about the breadth and scope of the investigation into pipe bombs, placed near the republican and democratic national committee. headquarters were back with f. b, i, whistle blower, and former special agent, colleen rally. colleen, we know that the legal definition of whistle blowing is bringing to light any evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. what are your thoughts on allegations that the f b, i has become politicize to the point that the american people can't trust the organizations leadership? well, it has become very politicized. and we saw this with the russia gate 1st with the

russia gate hoax. where you had what's his name struck, who was having an affair with another f, b i legal counsel. and they right back and forth and in their totally trying to keep tromp from being elected and calling all kinds of name calling. and it looks like they actually acted in very obstructive and, and highly unusual ways setting people up and trapping. and again, these were high, high level officials and actually struck ends up on robert miller's investigation, although he later is fired. so, you know, there's no doubt that the f b, i has become very politicized. and i think the agent said witness list in internally, especially the ones who would have been seen it. a lot of, there's only usually a 20 year career. so a lot of times the new agents don't know what's going on in the past unless they've kind of, you know, maybe been worked longer than that. but i think some of the old timers would

understand that a lot changed after 911. and especially after trump selection, or during trump selection, as these wars have gone on, is put more and more pressure on, on the national security apparatus. and i think it also has politicize the national security apparatus, largely because there's a revolving door and the, the high level officials tend to get good, good paying jobs and consultancies, and other types of things with their network. and you, you can to keep good graces with the, the current administration in order to get the jobs. so for a lot of reasons, i think the whole is not just the up, the, i think the whole national security apparatus has become very politicized. after, you know, beginning after 911, but then greatly accelerating in this last decade. why would 14

different f b i agents go to one specific congressman known for his partisanship. is what we're hearing from these agents legitimate whistle blowing information, or are they trying to make a political point? well, you know, i think you, you, as a whistleblower, you're always going to seek out, whoever you think would listen to you. you know, edward snowden, i saw it out when greenwald. ok, he sought out glad he didn't just go to any report or out there because you have to know the background of that in the track record for, for in it, for basically honesty. and for factual reporting and so in picking and selecting of the reporter snowden picture that greenwald, i think the somewhat similarly many whistleblowers selected charles grassley, who, who is from iowa one is 90 years old. now i think,

and he's still running for another term. and when i testified to the judiciary, it was under the auspices of senator grassley office. and not only was he from iowa, and i'm from iowa. so i thought, well, there's a little connection there, you know, i'm from iowa. but besides that, he has long been known as a whistle blowers, senator and that began when he found out all kinds of fraud involved in the pentagon. back in that i want to save in the eighty's. and then he, in the f b i, he really started to, to what, understand that the f b i had problems when the f, b, i laboratory was some war, went to grass lee's office in the 1990 s. and this was the war told grassley that the f b i lab isn't even accredited. after all this time, all the other forensic labs in the country are accredited. they have to undergo testing. but the f b, i was so special and exceptional that they didn't even have to have to be

accredited. so that was white hearse. and i think that really in a way it changed grass. please mind about a lot of things in the ever since that time. lots and lots of whistleblowers, no matter if they no democrat, republican went to grassley, especially if they were f b i whistleblowers because they trusted that he would understand that they were telling the truth about things. now, other other senators, that other people might have gone to, it may well have been more of a partisan saying that, you know, all i'm, i know everything became politicized. so ron johnson now is known for his stances against the po, v vaccine. and he, i mean, he's known for certain stances that he's taken, so it's possible that they, these are, these agents thought that he would be more receptive to their issues based on what he was publicly saying. i am just going to add one thing. i copied 2 senators on my

1st memo about the failures of the of the i and the 2 senators i copied. one was a democrat feinstein and one was a republican. oh gosh, what was his name? oh, i forget his name now, but neither one of them were the heads of the joint intelligence committee. graham and another guy were the heads of the joint intelligence committee. so the 2 i copied weren't even the heads of it. the reason i copied them, i saw their names in an article in the paper, asking questions. that's the only reason i put their names on this memo is i said, well, they're asking pretty good questions, even though most of the senators were in the dark about this. so that those were the ones i delivered my memo to just because i saw their names in the paper as having ask good questions. colleen, you are that rare whistleblower who did her whistle blowing in public? your recommendations were heated and you went on to complete a successful career. what advice would you give to other f, b,

i whistle blowers including these 14, who've approached congressmen, jordan, where should they go to make their revelations? well, you know, it's really hard to give advice up, as you well know to any person who knows something about a crime of the government or other of a government agency, fraud, waste abuse or, or any legality. it doesn't, you know, i always, i used to advise people, make sure that you're, the issue is, is extremely important. make sure it's not just like, well, we're arguing about the color of the drapes. no, it has to be practically life and death issue because you don't want to risk everything in your career in your reputation and whatever that used to be my advice . now when things have gotten even far worse and pretty much they're using the espionage act to prosecute an imprison. ah, people like daniel hale who was basically told the truth about the drone

assassination program. and the fact that it was, it was killing more civilians than it was killing targets. i mean, that's something the public should should know and never right. you know, but you know, you still in prison, you know, i think he's already, you know, we're serving his 2nd year in prison and still has time to go. the use of the espionage act in one of the things that may be said me back then in 2002 was that was then there was a common understanding that they would not use the espionage act to prosecute whistleblowers or certainly not publishers that they thought the 1st amendment protected information that was published well over these last 20 some years. this is all with the prior understanding of the espionage act, has literally been blown away to the point where now we're, we're trying to prosecute a foreign publisher for publishing, honest,

truthful things because we don't like it. and it, we can say it violated the espionage act and they're, they're using it actually talking about using that to charged trump, the president for having on disclose, excuse me, classified documents. it's become widely used and abused the espionage act. there's no defense, as you know, that the, all i gave truthful information that was in the public interest, life and death information. you and i both know that that doesn't hold water. now. it was believed when i, when i spoke out, i think it was still of the widespread understanding that you were trying to save lives by telling the truth about something you would not be put in prison for that . and that's all changed in the last, again, these wars, i think the wars itself, truth is the 1st casualty of war. and so after 20 years, boy is truth, the casualty, and to the, to the extent now where it's commonplace for anybody trying to tell the truth,

i mean these, these i'll later start whistleblowers. i don't know that they're in that much. ok. no trouble. there is supposed to be a law. it was called the paul revere. excuse me. yeah, paul revere warned our ability to warn, act lawful, let pass this back in the 1920 s. there's an old law are still on the books. freedom to warn is what it's called like the paul revere freedom to warn act. and basically it was supposed to protect our executive branch of employees who went to congress. and in other words, that would be a going to a congress person. a senator would be the right place to take your at your information. that's an old law, but unfortunately it also has been swept under the rock. and i don't think that it's adhered to any more. i know grassley when i testified, they told me that well,

you're protected, you're protected for testifying to the judiciary committee because of this old select freedom, the war and the congress law. but i actually think that's gone the by way now. so these agents are, at the very least, i think they would be um, they are their jobs, they may keep them on the books working, but they'll be put into an office. i mean, put inside some place where they're counting paperclips like one of the f a r read team. i was the wars that we both know. i mean, after he talked about 911 failures, he was put into a little office for like decades just counting paper clips. so i think that's definitely yes, king, i said they won't have good careers after that's that's all we have for you today. thanks to our guest calling raleigh. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers will see you next time. ah. 2

ah, is this which across a community like oh i oh, yes i don't hear from you in a former that's you know, from, for the diesel superscript, receive them on yucca to physically move in sort of business loan for a move with us is so new bandanna, discussion with

the hi miss holiday. he'll if we lose. mm huh. ah, oh, well, never be a victory for russia. wait solution with my truly not unless you look at a meal. crane war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. naz on are made, it comes to not should get done in carbon dioxide. america forces are and you're not in europe to gauge in conflict of russian forces. the american forces are here and defend nato allies with evidence that nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war when you but does have some of the rules that yellow show and that was a 1000 is my story. i see it that i see your to us. thank you. costliest. got earlier with so you sleep, he sure unique and you stuff to with almost them. let's see. we live

only the still foolish that are in your sewage. narrow secrets, a girl who's with who all came out to get there. we were all supposed to go home together. i didn't have them with it all. went to the movies. the get to the corner of 15th and ridgewood and there's another car just sitting there. when you achieve it and you go into do your 1st mission.