inc, we do not only listen to what the americans say, but what they do because it is quite obvious that on the one hand, the u. s. without the white house has been cutting beijing, that we do not support independence. taiwan, we recognize the one china policy, but in the meantime, they're also, you know, creating a lot of taishan across the taiwan street. so, you know, all these fabricated china threat is that come from nowhere actually. when we actually know exactly who is provoking the piece, who is destroying the piece in, in this part of the world. but i want to take this opportunity to comment that perhaps the american politicians, or the deep state. they have to realize that the rest of the world is not that

stupid. everyone knows what they're trying to do. every one knows what the us is trying to do is to maintain its edge, you monday, all over the world. meantime, nelson, meantime we're seeing all these different groupings where the bricks and other eurasian countries as well forming economists, stability and security contracts as well. nelson, if the conversation just demands more time than we have available today. nelson wong malakai economic forum expert and chairman of the shanghai center for international studies. always great to see you. thank you for your time. thank you . i thank you for your time as well show wrapping up right now, but we are back in half an hour. ah, ah ah hello and welcome to

cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle in a recent interview. french intellectual, emmanuel todd claims. the 3rd world war has already started. its epicenter is, of course, ukraine, and it's a western war against russia and china. if this scholar is correct, then we can expect to be living in a very dangerous world for a very long time. the, the cross sucking global conflict. i'm joined by my guess, george semi well we in budapest, he's a podcast for the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals in paris. we have john laughlin. he is a university lecturer in history and political philosophy and it needs to be cross to alex hello badge. he is a veteran reporter and foreign affairs analysts are a gentleman cross type roles. in fact, that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it, let me go to john 1st in paris in la figaro, in the pages of figure we had many, well todd, talk about global change going on. and the epicenter of that change,

of course, is ukraine. but he characterizes that as already were in the 3rd world war because i think a lot of it's been watching the commentary ever since of february of last year that we could be going on the, on the edge of we could be all this kind of stuff here, this anthropologist if i'm not mistaken, he says we're already in if john your thoughts? yeah. i mean, i know a manual, todd, and he is mainly famous for having predicted the end of the soviet union in the 1980s on the basis of the falling to the demographics of the soviet union. and is it a 3rd world war? well, yes, there are some aspects in which is the 3rd world war, obviously, as he says, it's as we know, america against russia. it's not rutter against ukraine, or it may be, he's right, that it's america against russia and china. that's an important aspect that he didn't mention, which of course is that there are, there is more than one front,

which is what would make it qualifies world war. and the other front, of course, is syria. that front has come down in recent months and years. but syria was in away the 1st front in this war, which is now of course, being played out in ukraine, just as in the 2nd world war. and there were earlier was which are not normally counted as part of the 2nd world war, but which, when you look at, it probably were, let's say, early tremors which indicated the earthquake to come, i'm thinking of the spanish civil war. right. and there's a lot similarity between the ukraine war and the spanish civil war course. there wasn't an invasion of spain by a foreign country, as there is in the case of, of russia and ukraine. but the spanish civil war is known as well known of calls for the intervention practiced by outside powers by the nazis on the one handed by the soviet union on the other. so the spanish will was a special was a proxy war much as we have in ukraine. and of course, to some extent it was a precursor to the 2nd world war. and so in that sense,

i think that he is right. the big difference of course, is that we're in the nuclear age now, and that's why you can't really compare the 19 thirty's to the present period because of the big powers america, russia and china and so on. know that there are very serious limits do up they can go to war with each other and that's why i think probably i would be less pessimist stick. the man who has told i wouldn't necessarily say that we're going to go towards a head on conflict, but the proxy will definitely. well, george, your thoughts too, because in many ways taught in his article, he talks about this conflict as he claims were in the middle of this 3rd world war . it's an ex, essential for the west, particularly the united states and russia. that's a very interesting characterization. characterization because i would say from a security point of view, it's a proxy war on the part of the united states to weaken russia. we've even heard the secretary depend, say that, but he says it's just as ex essential to the west,

which is quite an interesting characterization. go ahead, george. no, i think that's right. and it has the con, the existential. because the west has chosen to go down this path. it didn't have to be existential for russia. yes, absolutely. thanks, essential. but once the united states essentially committed itself in such a whole hearted way to the school and has refused all reasonable attempts to negotiate, i'm to bring this to some kind of a conclusion. then it has now become existential for the united states. it's very hard to see how the united states can back away from where it's come to. and in fact, all the indications that the united states is preparing to escalate those an article in the new york times the other day in which was clearly us officials briefly new

york times reported that they were planning to help ukraine target of targets inside russia, including crimea, once the united states goes down this path, then i think it's all bets are off and, and then we really are in the territory of shooting was. so i wouldn't be quite so optimistic. well, because the nuclear power and it won't come to that. i think that it could well come to that simply because this is where we've gone to because once united states in box on this course, helping to target targets inside russia, russia will retaliate. the 1st thing it will do will be to target american satellites. it has to because it's the use of satellites that. ready in the start to take place and then who knows how the united states would respond. so, you know, i think we are in a very dangerous, it's very interesting alex, let me go to george,

george and john are both right. depending on how you want to look at the argument here, because this was a craven on the part of the united states, they didn't, they did not have to go in to use ukraine as a proxy. it has done it and it will continue to do so. just for the very reasons of prestige and to make sure it's allies, they with it, which i want to talk more about. but i mean, this is a choice on the part of the, of the united states forcing its nato allies to go down this path. go ahead in nice, absolutely. i mean, look at this is, but this pressure has been on for a long time when i was talking about the past year since the war broke out in ukraine. i was reporting back in 2014 by j t t f, which are canadian special forces dixie up to, to be exact, be on the ground in ukraine and training what we're known to be. wall street journal's written about it. neil now she's probably sector at the time as well as the, as all the tally. and now the canadians were involved. the brits have been involved

french or been involved of course the americans of the, of all, there is a push with some call it needle creepy. can call it what your life this did not have to go down. well, that way was we saw russia in discussion at the very point saying, hey, all you gotta say is that you're not going to spread nato in this direction. give us a couple of guarantees and there will be no problems here. but the u. s. whatever was coming out to washington dc was what, you know, what they got the freedom to do whatever they want to. that is countries. everybody's got their own will and freedom to do what they want as an individual nation, which we've seen time and time again, united states not allowing countries to do what they want when it works out for them. it works great with this examples, and that's the thing. and brush reacted now. the question is that i agree with todd, 100 percent. russia did not have to react the way it reacted at this time in history. there was no immediate threat that something was going to go down, but there was any bigger skill over of needed to ukraine at this moment. they got suckered in the got pulled into this war. and now what we have is something that

can lead to a 3rd world war. what i want to say is we don't, we're talking about world war 2. let's go back to world war one. this looks like world war one, watch this movie, a long roach. war tells you the whole story. the world war, one started decades prior to world war one, actually started getting gabriela, prince sorry, able, and it was all about russia was the germans austro hungarian wanting to get to russia. this is similar in that aspect. it's natal wanting to get to russia to we can russia, and now we have the situation on our hands that can become much worse than just the situation across your ukraine. china. i mean, we all agree. it's a proxy war here. we can talk about how it is existential for what party. but i would posit that it is existential for nato. not for american security, not by a long shot, but nato. they're putting everything on the table here. this is a, this is a game of russian roulette here, and they're the ones pulling the trigger. go ahead, john. yeah, i think that's right. and i think that's it,

though i do agree with the manual told as well, that it's existential for the united states. in the sense that definitely for nato, but also for the americans in the sense that they postwar germany of the united states is of course on the head, germany of the dollar. as well as on military supremacy and the americans and, and the europeans as well for that matter, have shot themselves in the foot on the monetary question by, as we know of freezing people's assets and essentially stealing that the money of other countries. and this is an incredibly stupid thing to do because of course it means that no one is going to put money into a country ever. no 3rd, no 3rd power and so on is going to do that because they've seen what can happen to their money. and if the dollar germany crumbles as it it is doing with the increasing closeness between not just russia and china, but also between iran and russia. saudi arabia and russia are then indeed they had

germany will be threatened. a told to make another point which is about cultural hegemony. you, john, you're getting ahead of me as exact, but go ahead please. because i wanted to do. i was not in the 2nd world war, sorry, in the cold war. the soviet union, of course, had a large amount of soft power in the sense that it was the leading a power of communism and communism existed all over the world. and so communists from latin america to the far east, looked to moscow. now it's the issue of conservative values versus woke ism, you know, the collective west nato and so on, is, is heavily it has gone deeply down the woke route, you know, gay marriage and transsexuals them, anton, and russia's course that doesn't go down very well in most other parts of the world, but in africa, not in south america, probably not even in the far east. excuse me. and russia of course, is playing that card quite quite dexterously. so. so in that sense,

i think that the cultural hegemony of the west is also under threat, as well as the military and economic germany. well, at george, you know that, you know, this is one of my favorite topics to talk about. i got 30 seconds before we go to the break, but cultural element is key to this argument here. go ahead, george, real quick. well, it is a key because during the cold war, the soviet union really wasn't a particularly appealing cultural phenomenon. i mean, you know, it was culturally very r conservatives where you stop it politically. it was obviously a very unattractive and as an economic model in terms of its consumer goods lateral, it wasn't a very attractive and you know, but it did have military power. something has changed drastically and that is that the west is now culturally, again gone down a very strong right gorge. hold that, thought george, i got to go to a hard break. and after about hard break,

we'll continue our discussion on a global conflict state with with relative to glad asia graphic. what is the best, i mean on the i get them. this is a little bit of a lady named quality live. what i say school for carbonate port. now, what are some claim? yeah, i standing in my scheme report to nick carter. the stuff is out of touch. they love it completely. a conditional krinski participate, which it said to jeff. i'm using the new to with can be coma. lucy and the com or somebody and the community that the comma lp, 2 left for the knob is all supposed to be set up. like you said it door only out of them to light it with us. that's a disclaimer,

but how much the buddhist spook leaving with looking at them during the summer because i see now that it because he doesn't know kathy so much. but he did. we cannot let crystal willard was it was the caged alyssa. and then you build a solution glue that she's given to us. contest noticed if she cut that were stiff . 80 past african littleton dunham production when article the nobody will malesky synopsis of mm hm.

ah ah ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter le belcher manual. we're discussing global conflict. ah. okay, i want to go, i want to go back to george and in budapest here because we started talking about a really critical issue about this global conflict and it is on the back of an article by you menu. well, todd fascinating thinker and writer george, i mean if you're, if you're, you know, you could talk about economics. if you said the soviet union was not an attractive model for many in the world, but it was anti colonial was anti western. so that was, you know, enough to get you interested in, but now we're in

a very different era. the western model, a cultural model is very unattractive for most of the world right now. and we add to that the decline if at gemini, the global south or the global majority, as i like to refer to them, they don't have any appreciation for western culture anymore for even call culture . and they're not afraid of the west, like they used to be george. yes, i think so. and the west has gone down to strange bar. woke is in which it has challenged traditional relations between men and women. traditional marriage, embrace gay marriage and now it's embrace the trans right. the idea that you would just simply define your own gender and everybody has to pull down on these and accept your claim to be a man or a woman, irrespective of your biological sex, you must of the world. this just seems so bizarre, an alien. and this is what may come to associate with the west. moreover,

all of these appealing aspect of western culture house seem to be appealing to hollywood movies, which used to be in love the maya around the world. you know, the gang, some movies, the screwball comedies, all the things are very popular. have now come to the hey, to the movies. all stupidly violent women beating up, man. all the rest. and, you know, the in the other countries are coming up with their own cultural brands that are actually quite becoming quite popular around the world. you know, chinese cinema, hong kong cinema, taiwan cinema and hollywood has lost his appeal. and that was his key to american soft power, the all pervasiveness of hollywood, it's filled and it's television. once it's lost that then and, you know,

the american song is, goes out the window, you know, alex, i mean what, what we're all talking about in this part of the program hasn't been used yet, but it's all about different forms of sovereignty. cultural sovereignty, societal sovereignty, but there's not, you know, i want to go back to a manual talk. he says that europe has become a kind of imperial protectorate, which has, has little sovereignty. and for our viewers, he's focusing on the outcome of the 2nd world war, germany and japan. primarily they are the main protectorate and the, the, the spirits in which american power revolves around in europe and in asia right here. how do you look at that? because it's really quite remarkable. you know, you have the president of the united states with the german chancellor, which i referred to as sergeant schultz next to him in january of last year. and they were talking about the north stream to a german russian project. and well, what we, you know, how will you end? it will end it. ok. i mean,

and then you have the german chancellor standing there smiling like a chimpanzee. i mean, look like a complete but phone. ok. germany did nothing as matter fact. nobody's really interested in what happened to the pipelines. it's extraordinary how submissive these countries are when, particularly germany is the powerhouse of europe. alex and nice, you know. yeah, not a leaders in germany, that power house of europe buds, germany will seen as a green power house, the country that i was moving this continent forward when it comes to green everything. and then you blow up a pipeline and cause more environmental damage than or you know, the guy can tell, but i don't know how much a lot there's like it was one of the biggest environmental disasters that's happened in a long, long time. who did it? you know, they will never know will never know. you got to keep on guessing that when but like europe is europe, it's still a step better than what we have back in canada. i can't speak for the united states . i have to qualify myself here. i'm a big supporter of pierre trudeau,

the old trudeau, and what he said, which was that what you do, your bedroom is nobody's. i'm feel 100 percent. like not i agree with that 100 percent. but once you start telling people what to do, once you bring transvestite into school to dance around children, once you trans best title transsexual people into 2 races with women. once we start working up these mines, things start not to make sense. now, i'm going to tell you something that pendulum might have swung in one direction and it's crazy direction right now. but there are a lot of people and they're not looking towards rush hour towards the south or towards china or anybody else. canadians and other countries are looking toward people within their own nations to take that step back and how the pendulum land someplace in the middle, again, all for gay, right. but don't shove it in my face. and that's the problem. well, i mean, yeah, but, but our guy, i'm certainly the viewers of this program would agree with you. but let me go to

john here. we can throw in ukraine and we can throw in trans rights we can throw in, woke as i'm all of these things in much, much more because institutionally, in the west, it is basically a 90 with 10 percent imbalance. here. i'm talking about education. i could jamia entertainment news. i mean, we could go on and on here. i don't have a whole lot of hope that the pendulum is going to go back in the other direction. as matter of fact, these people double down, they double down on the proxy war in syria as a spoiler decade after it came to an end, and they are, there is no sign they're going to give up on ukraine until the last your grading is dead. i have no hope the pendulum is going to move in the other direction, your thoughts more in the pendulum go? i much. well be safe. i never under apps. i never underestimate people. ok. i want to go to john here. going to john paris. i think you're absolutely right about the work element in the cultural well, the university is the media and so on. but the point that i was making and that

george and alex were making, i think, is how it plays out on the international stage. and there it doesn't play out well, nor does the, another aspect of a germany that has disappeared. i think since the cold war is, of course, moral had gemini, there you go. you know, some people may have been an american during the cold war, but the united states had a rather better claim i would say to some kind of moral to gemini then than it does now. it's gambled that all the way it's it's spend tool that moral capital with its own illegal was iraq yugoslavia, syria, you mentioned and so on. and it's also gambled it away because of course, you know, you mentioned the pipelines. the relationship between the united states and european countries is the relationship between a mass, your boss and pizza. paula owners, you know, if they, if you don't do what they say they come round and splash up your windows. everybody

in europe knows that the americans blow the pipelines. everyone in germany knows that the americans the, the pipelines yet it's not that submissive. of course, they submissive, but they're submissive because they can't say it in public because the americans control them through violence. and they know that if they were to, to point the finger at the americans having thrown up the pipelines, then the americans will come and blow up something else again. and that's all basically while an extremely unpleasant position for the european governments. and when they can't get out for the time being, of course is the very opposite of any kind of moral gemini. so that also, i think is, is a cause for some kind of some glimmer of light on the horizon here is here. so absolutely right. you know, george, i saw a couple of weeks ago, george mearsheimer on a doing a debate with called built that more on built. and it was in a canadian setting up. i wasn't, i'm not mistaken. and mir shermer, which i had some differences with him. he's not a good debater,

but he didn't say something that really resonated and shocked the crowd. he said american foreign policy is like godzilla. ok, and but i mean, i'm just echoing what, what john was saying right there at god zillah, when god villas angry, there's no compromise. you don't talk with god villa george. yes. so that's a very good point. and this is really the, the problem is that what they get, he is the us aggression us lines in order to justify aggression and above all, a content for the national still relative of other countries. and this is again, probably this issue of song how, because russia and china, the leaders that were kind of global movement on behalf of national. so relative they say, well like a, you know, you, you are not a serious country. if you are allow others to determine your phrase.

fortunately, the europeans, stupidly having walked into nato, having walked into the european union, suddenly waking up and finding that i have no national serenity that, that destined is being decided by others. and that they just been deluding them so that they somehow decide things for themselves. and i think when russia and china point this out, then you know, the rest of the world will listen. yeah. you know, you are not a serious country if you allow others to determine your foreign and security policy . and this is great. what has happened to europe, that europe is just simply subordinated itself completely to the united states. and yet they are not serious countries. you know, yeah, i mean, or jack out, i mean, or jack you're, if you're an outlier, if you're an outlier like serbia, you're in trouble. right? so you're one of these countries that's an outlier. that doesn't want to be subjugated by the european union. that doesn't necessarily want to be subjugated by russia either you're trying to be in the middle, just like you get sloppy, was during the cold war is what happens to you while you get a situation?

well, actually what alex now are you going to, and i mean, i'm a group, i'm agree with you, alex. it's interesting because the west that traditionally since the 2nd world war is trying to show itself as a progressive in, in about, in a positive sense leader as you know, and what a, what is possible. and so what the europeans have done is that they've, they've gotten under the captive wing of the, of the united states and the collective west. doesn't that send a message to other countries in the world do not go down that path. if you want to have control of your, your sovereignty, go ahead alex. well, you know that the issue is it's not a control of sovereignty anymore. it's a question of do you want the help on data? we saw that happened in 1999. and like there was, there's rumors about weapons being diverted from ukraine down the cost of down to bog here right now, the situation of the cost of borders not improving at all. whatever is being said, it went back to world war one, gets lobby or serbia at the time,

a 1000 times over pleated with the germans. the germans would make a request, the serbia or you could call me at the time to say yes, we'll do it. yes, we'll do it. yes, we'll do it until the request became so outlandish that they couldn't fulfill that request. and there we go. now you got a war that's exactly. i think that's happening in serbia right now. the requests are land just when it comes to constable. and the push is on is what when americans decide to pull the trigger, it's going to be well, alex felt when they decide to pull the trigger or according to manual todd they already have, but they don't want americans to die. that's very interesting. they want everybody else to die for their goals, and i think their outdated and very unwanted global ideology gentlemen, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in paris. nice and in budapest, and i want to think our viewers are watching us here. are the see you next time. remember? the the

ah ah. oh, when i watch something wrong, when i just don't hold a shave out, the scene becomes the advocate. an engagement. it was the trail

when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah, top headlines right now and i see the indian foreign ministry slams or new b, b. c documentary about prime minister in iran. gra modi saying that it peddled promotes 8 colonial mindset. quote, a breach of fundamental american values, those words from the russian embassy in washington. the u. s. is set to transfer confiscated assets of russian citizens to kia less than 10 percent of western countries have left to russia since the cult interrupted in youth praise. those results from a twist university started pushing u. s. and dressed. so by china strong and.