and then the c, i all will be able to interact and cooperate with some ah ah ah ah, i'm african or dancey and welcome back to going under ground ra, gusting all around the world from dubai in the united arab emirates. this week the u. n. revealed up to 50 percent more journalist immediate workers were killed in

2022 compared to previous years. that's a dead journalist every 4 days with accusations of miss reporting, fake news and war propaganda by the modern day, so called mainstream media. is it any wonder that last year was the deadliest? no one in the anglo phone world has at such a profound effect with our understanding of the nato nation propaganda model of journalism than one of the most cited living scholars in the world. no. m. chomsky in the past 24 hours, he has called for you cane us authorities to release wiki leaks, founder julian assange tortured according to the un by the british in london. the father of modern linguistics and co author of manufacturing consent joins me now from tucson, arizona. thank you so much, professor chomsky for coming back on going underground rafter a guy there quite a long time. they won't even allow julie. the sound has been on this show. people can watch our interviews with him on rumble to the funeral of his friend vivian westward, the famous fashion designer. why given reports of his deteriorating health?

ah, are they so intense the british in the americans on keeping him incarcerated? the julian assange emitted agrees crime. he exposed crimes of state which state power wants to be suppressed. they cannot be tolerated. an attack on the power and dignity of the state authorities chose had been treated very brutally. for years he was socially locked into a told an embassy, but actually a small apartment not allowed to go out surrounded by police. then he was put in a prison that said designated for serious offenders terrorist treat again. extremely harsh treatment. the u. n. reporter

unter, plausibly in my view describes it as a torture repertoire and torture. and then that's an accurate designation, or he's being charged in the united states odyssey espionage act. so that's a good back to 1917 quarter of the harshest repression in american history. wilson administration bitter attacks on any one who questioned the nobility of participation in the 1st world war a major attacks on labor, on distance, on intellectual opinion. it is part of the repression as an enormous

impact on american society, listed until the prison legacy. israel been used for essentially that purpose for over and over the most extreme was actually barack obama. the current case is a sage is being charged under the espionage at the act should not be on the books in any democratic society, but to the main crime is his exposure of materials that state once suppressed. you've been attacked her most of your life, my so called mainstream media, but do you think it's getting worse now? you might have to remind some people about what you and at home and said in manufacturing consent to differentiate propaganda from, say, style in a soviet times. because i actually there's a viral video of a, b, b, c reporter,

andrew marr. i think his name is and he says to you, what are you talking about? no one tells me what to say, and you will, you might remember what you say to him back. you have to change the propaganda model with julian assange in jail with the banning of art literature, music, sports press in the, in the nato nation landscape. whereas before it was done in a slightly more well as you describe it more structured and more complex way, i think actually in many who is better now than it was before. one reason is that many journalists have simply lived through the liberating effect of the activism of the 19 sixty's, which shattered many barriers and its aftermath,

which continues. this is part of their formation, tends to make them more free and open. you look back to the say, 1960 is the idea of questioning authority barely a rose take the vietnam war, the worst crimes since the 2nd world war took the years to try to organize any opposition to it. i happened to live in boston, which is the most liberal city in the country. we couldn't have public demonstrations against the war because they would be wildly broken up. i tried to have meetings in churches are, churches were attacked. it was years before you could finally get some kind of protest against this renders atrocity, which by the time protest, right, really developed, almost destroyed 3 countries. but there's been

a change surely the war currently raging in europe. and you know, you look at bernie sanders, advisor, matt does. diplomatic summit settlement would mean ukraine surrender every single person in the biden. in the d. n. c, the democrats voted to supply weapons to ukraine. the senate approved the resolution to support finan and sweden in nato. i only ran to paul and john harvey to g o. p senators voted against you have the entire i mean, all 6 of the so called score the democrats all intent and there are no demonstrations to stop or the profits of raphael in general dynamics. boeing, lockheed martin, and northrop grumman another a difference between for so we could discuss this polish, isn't there justification,

but what different today from the 19 say 50 years ago is that there is debate and discussion it. so overwhelmingly, an aside of state power and official doctrine, but it exists. you go back to the 19th sixty's, it barely even existed. there was no up in the case of the vietnam war, for example. there was essentially no opposition to us and for a long time, finally, broker and we should be we should recognize that the civilizing effect of the activism, mostly young people in those years. and since has had an impact, there is no a range of debate discussion people like me, of course, can't get into the mainstream media,

but we never could. that was impossible. and now at least there's alternative wish for voices well, actually, or, well, actually, your name has been mentioned in mainstream media and it's been defamed. and i don't know whether you want to take legal action. you're a trenchant critic of vladimir putin. and yet, if i look on the internet that big publications calling you a put an apologist when you've spent every week since february the 24th. and we moved to as the russian c at protect the people of don bass. you spent criticising for that? we have period, why do they call you a putin of ologist? because say, if you deviate from official doctrine, you're condemned as an apologist for the enemy of the state. you talked in the

1960 isabel trying to bring loser in this war and vietnam to an end. you recall an apologist for jim in. ok that says standard technique, vilification, you know, order answer arguments, you throw most people that's normal and expected. but to day, if you look at mainstream establishment journals, foreign affairs, major journal, you actually find a range of critical commentary. actually not all that different from things i say are well, 2 years, you didn't as it just marching in a parade furshly no descent. but of course in say, britain, they've banned c g t and the chinese channel from broadcasting r t. famously. why is it that you think russia thinks it's

fine? i think so gay lover of this week giving a press conference allowing western reporters accreditation. whereas in the united states, they obviously don't ban media in the u. s. because of the 1st amendment, sunny in europe, obviously there's mass banning of journalists and journalism. what's behind it vat and that surely does depart some walked from manufacturing consent where they didn't want to ban anything. they just knew that the lower selling outlets would fail to engage the populace in, in dissident opinion. well, i see, 1st of all, it's quite know if you look through the see it in take a more recent event, the iraq or not that far back. anyone who dares to see that iraq, or was the major crime of the century, which it certainly was,

is bitterly denounced and condemned. if you look at discussion in the mainstream, you'll be hard put to find anyone who disagrees, who can reach the mainstream, who will say the elementary truth in this indisputable truth. the theoretical or was an example of with the nuremberg tribunal called the supreme international crime. primary aggression which differs from other war crimes only in the it includes all of the evil that follows . so find somebody who says, president bush, donald rumsfeld, dick cheney, we're guilty of the crimes for which people ranked at nuremberg. instead,

what you has is celebration of george bush, the great criminal who invaded iraq and afghanistan and destroyed the celebration of him as a lovely person scolded, goofy graham placement, his grandchildren, painted pictures, just a delightful person. well, that's the record. it's for quite striking that anyone who dares to compare the iraq war with the russian and zation of ukraine is viciously denounced. harvard university even had a, a debate in which the debate was whether the iraq or can be considered a humanitarian intervention. a debate? suppose at moscow university had a debate on whether the russian invasion can be called

a humanitarian intervention. can you imagine the reaction in the west? what's the reaction in the worst would happen at or a close look at the openness of american society. they're even willing to question whether this military intervention was a humanitarian intervention. oh, well, that manufacturer consent. let me give in explicit example. recently there were couple articles in the mainstream press saying, there is no some skepticism arising about whither russia was really responsible for the service charge of the nurturing pro, pipe lunch. professor chomsky i'll stop you there more from one of the world's greatest and most cited public intellectuals after this break. ah

ah, ah ah, with a ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it treat even foundation, let it be an arms race, his on offense, very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how

that strategy will be successful. very katy killed time. time to sit down and talk ah, welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with professor no m chomsky, american dissident and co author of the pioneering book manufacturing consent, the political economy of the mass media. maybe they call you up huge and apologise, because you expressed doubt about a terror attack. that was one of the worst. as if climate destroying gera tax given the amount of fossil fuels released. that alone, that what the sabotage means for energy resources for germany. you think that the mainstream media that said this must be the russians, could have got it wrong. i mean, the least likely it is the

state responsible for the service is russia. it's the pipeline that was sabotage. destroyed is largely owned by a russian company. what possible purpose with russia is head in destroying. it's and sabotaging its own major capital investment, which it counts on for supplying europe. if russia, one of the supposed to stop the supply of grass is all it could do is turn off of didn't have to destroy it. mean it's main investment. so the least likely state that can be charged is russian. so of course, the western media immediately rushed on race to say, will russia is responsible? now they're raising some skepticism. that's called manufacturers consent. said to

framework and debate within it. but it's the framework that is insane who's likely culprit in the north stream service, who had the motive and the capability. well, just one state, united states obviously had the motive, in fact, was quite frank and open about saying that those are put not only opposing the pipelines but saying that they'll be destroyed. the motive was not secret, was perfectly public, obviously had the capability to just add large naval movers in the region right before the 7 major ship some equipment. so they had the capability and the mode is clearly nobody else anything like that. the russians are the least likely cope. so manufacturing consent says, let's have

a lively debate to show open and free we are. but within the framework that excludes by assumption, by the possibility the united states might have been involved will only discuss debate whether the least likely culprit is involved. well, that's effective propaganda. you don't just loi that's refutable. what you do is set up the framework of discussion, which excludes totally excludes the obvious and most likely answer the in debate. are there things are in the case of iraq. you have a debate at harvard over whither the iraq invasion was a humanitarian invasion. you don't have a debate over whether it was the a crime to kind of crime for which nazi war criminals were newer. you open that

question for discussion to discuss something ridiculous. was it a humanitarian intervention? when you carry out a shock and all attack against iraq, smash up, the country kill hundreds of thousands of people. have all kinds of torture and other atrocities. in fact, just one of the worst crimes in the iraq war was the battle a solution, especially the 2nd battle solution. devastating destructive murders attack was a miranda began was taking over the general hospital to war crime. and it shows that destroying much of the city killing. nobody knows many people, we don't investigator on crimes. jose remembered the united states, well, tell you the u. s. navy is no commissioning a new vessel in honor of the marines who fought and flew to school to for lucia.

that's the way we deal with one of the worst crimes doesn't get reported. of course, i should say, the biden administration officially denies involvement in the terror attack on the north stream. as does the british administration off to allegations the royal navy was involved in it. and i mentioned that you're a critic of valuable putin given that angular, michael says that the minsk process was actually a delaying tactic to arm ukraine. what would you have done differently? knowing that, that politically within russia, vladimir putin was under pressure, given the thousands of people of the don bass being killed with nato weapons in easton ukraine. and given that the minced process was, went on for a number of years, it was adopted by the security council. what do you suppose to do after being told

repeatedly that the americans weren't going to go into your grand ukraine? wasn't going to join nato and actually it was and obviously we have the details of the qu, you, if you would want further negotiations, you would have called for intermediaries with the french. that's not quite the story on the limb or kill. now says that it was a delay effort. there isn't a particle evidence in the record to support a claim. no, nothing. at the time, germany and french took it very seriously, were pressing for a mama crohn she up until a couple of days before the invasion had a long interchange with couldn't you can read the transcript published in the french press,

offering various ways to reinstitute something like the minsk agreement and prevent the invasion, couldn't rejected it at the end. the last conversation, 4 days before the invasion is simply rejected. the discussions with contempt. so sorry i have to go ice skating or something like that. well, there were opportunities. there was plenty of publication, quite right, lots of pro vacation, but publication doesn't justify aggression. aggression is a major crime here if you provoke me to attack you and then i attack you. i'm guilty even if i was provoked. and for the people that defend that burden's decision as a mark of a new world order to avenge iraq. just one of the wars in reason is

that your government has been involved in as the global south come together. new currency is being talked about, new ways of talking about energy, perhaps even helping the climate better than any cop summit under the aegis of the united states. you don't buy that, you can't believe in a global south with china or india, lula your friend. and, and brazil, and russia altogether and the debt death of europe in effect. well, i think they were major shifts in world or in the invasion of ukraine. and the reaction to accelerate it is one effect of the invasion of ukraine was to give the united states extraordinary gift. couldn't gave the united states and gifted it greatly relishes. it

drove europe into the pocket of the united states. there's been a good debate all through the cold war back to the 1940s as to whether europe should move in an independent direction be what was sometimes called a 3rd 3rd force in international affairs was pressed most vigorously . boy, charles, the goal, deliberate us politic gestures of com and others, united states instead and demanded what's called the latest version based on nato, which the united states runs, of course, in which europe would be subordinate to the united states. this became a major issue with the collapse of the soviet union. mikhail gorbachev proposed

a common european home from lisbon to lot of us. no military alliances, no victors, no defeated, common efforts to move forward towards a moralist, social democratic eurasia. united states was strongly opposed, insisted on the atlanta system, or put in as in say, oh, for the united states. it's highest wish preferred europe at least temporarily. it was in his abandon search for independence shanisha. joining us subordinating itself to the states to which it seemed to which some would say they were already bases at ramstein in britain, aircraft carrier for the united states for so so long we're running a little bit shorter time professor chomsky i want to get to something really

disturbing in what you've been writing recently. i thought you said and coming from the pioneer of generative grammar, i'm saying that psych loosely connected, you said that humanity can have a dedication to self destruction. what i mean, given that, megan markel, of all people now claim, says she, she reads your work, and i know you send a message to her through the airways, as it were saying that you are pleased that prince harry's wife. read your work. what do you mean by a pathological, perhaps dedication to self destruction given? we are talking obviously about some things that involve armageddon. and i know the bulletin of atomic scientists will be resetting the the clock next tuesday about how close, how long we have to live. well, the bulletin said, the do stay clerk in 1947, shortly after the bombing,

the hands are set certain distance from midnight midnight means termination of human species. the 1st sitting was 7 minutes to midnight. it's oscillated over the years during the trumpet, ministration. they abandoned minute move to seconds. now sadder chickens to midnight. january 24th, it will be said again, i presume. the 2nd it will be set closer to midnight. certainly should be a man concerns or increasing threat of nuclear war. the very severe and growing threat of a destruction of the climate which is rapidly increasing, states are not doing what they know they must do to solve discourages. the 3rd is

the deterioration of an arena of rational, serious debate and deliberation with the collapse of democratic forces around the world. sounds at 1st as if that doesn't belong with the 1st 2. but it does, because that's the only hope for dealing with the 1st 2 or 3 has gotten considerably worse during the past year. unless there is a sharp reversal will simply be heading for a precipice falling over irreversible and not in the long distant future present. i'm chomsky thank you and that's it for the show. we'll be back next week with another brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch by all our social media if it's not sensitive in your country, but you can always add to our channel going on the grantee on rumbled dot com to watch new and old up, so it's going on the ground. so you very to,

ah ah, a said treasury secretary, yours is a lengthy applicant to push back against russia and chinese, brought rising influence on the continent. despite her visit officially, being all about developing corporation, ariel girls have become a major component of fighting for don barza as essentially means for modern warfare . our correspondent reports were frontline, berlin, relating to fight against us pressure. i'm for now. we'll send advanced times to keep pulling natal.