entrepreneur, political, unless leih from toronto, canada. thank you. now one of the world's foremost intellectuals is today's gaston worlds apart. always an engaging watchman, philosopher and historian noam chomsky in full flow catch his discussion with option read with . ah, i'm african dancy and welcome back to going underground rural, gusting all around the world from dubai. in the united arab emirates. this week, the u. n. revealed up to 50 percent more journalists and media workers were killed in 2022 compared to previous years. that's a dead journalist every 4 days with accusations of miss reporting,

fake news and war propaganda by the modern day, so called mainstream media. is it any wonder that last year was the deadliest? no one in the anglo phone world has had such a profound effect with our understanding of the nato nation propaganda model of journalism than one of the most cited living scholars in the world. no m. chomsky in the past 24 hours. he has called for you kane us authorities to release wiki leaks, founder julian assange tortured according to the un by the british in london. the father of modern linguistics and co author of manufacturing consent joins me now from tucson, arizona. thank you so much, professor chomsky for coming back on going underground rafter a guy there quite a long time. they won't even allow julie dishonors been on this show. people can watch our interviews with them on rumble to the funeral of his friend vivian westward. the famous fashion designer, why given reports of his deteriorating health are, are they so intense the british and the americans on keeping him incarcerated?

julian assange emitted a grave crime. he exposed crimes of state which state power wants to be suppressed, that cannot be tolerated it. an attack on the power and dignity of the state authorities chose, had been treated very brutally for years. he was safely locked into a told an embassy, but actually a small apartment not allowed to go out surrounded by police. then he was put in a prison that designated for serious offenders. terrorist treat again, extremely harsh treatment. the u. n. or

a porter on ther plausibly in my view, describes it as a torture, rubber, tor and torture. and then that's an accurate designation, or he's being charged in the united states. lizzie espionage act, tonight's, it goes back to 1917 quarter of the harshest repression in american history. wilson administration bitter attacks on any one who questioned the nobility of a participation in the 1st world war. a major attacks on labor, on decisions on intellectual opinion. it is part of the repression as an enormous impact on american society, listed until the prison legacy. israel been used for essentially

that purpose for over and over the most extreme was actually barack obama. ready or the current case is a sage is being charged under the espionage at the act should not be on the books in any democratic society. but to the main crime, this is exposure of materials that state once suppressed. you've been attacked her most of your life via circle made stream media, but do you think it's getting worse now? you might have to remind some people about what you and at the home and said in manufacturing consent to differentiate propaganda from, say, style in a soviet times. because i actually there's a viral video of a, b, b, c reporter, andrew marr. i think his name is and he says to you, what are you talking about?

no one tells me what to say. and you why you might remember what you say to him back. you have to change the propaganda model with julian assange in jail with the banning of art literature, music, sports press in the, in the nato nation landscape. whereas before it was done in a slightly more well as you describe it more structured and more complex way, i think actually in many who is better now than it was before. one reason is that many journalists have simply lived through the liberating effect of the activism of the 19 sixty's, which shattered many barriers and its esther mass, which continues. this is part of their formation,

tends to make them more free and open. you look back to the say, 1960 is the idea of questioning authority barely arose, a take the vietnam war, the worst crimes since the 2nd world war took years to try to organize any opposition to it. i happened to live in boston, which is the most liberal city in the country. we couldn't have public demonstrations against the war because they would be boil it li, broken up. i tried to have meetings in churches, the churches were attacked. it was years before you could finally get some kind of protest against this renders atrocity, which by the time protest, right, really developed, almost destroyed 3 countries, but that there's been a change surely the war currently raging in europe. if you look at

bernie sanders, advisor, matt does diplomatic summit settlement would mean ukraine surrender every single person in the biden. in the d n. c, the democrats voted to supply weapons to ukraine. the senate approved the resolution to support finland and sweden in nato. i only ran to paul and john harvey 2 who g o p senators voted against you have the entire i mean, all 6 of the so called score the democrats all intent and there are no demonstrations to stop or the profits of raphael in general dynamics. boeing, lockheed martin, and north of gum, another a difference between the 1st we should discuss the suppose isn't there justification, but what different today from the 19 say 50 years ago is

that there is debate and discussion it. so overwhelmingly, an aside of state power and official doctrine, but it exists. you go back to the 19th sixty's, it barely even existed. there was no up in the case of the vietnam war, for example. there was essentially no opposition to us and for a long time, finally, broker and we should be we should recognize that the civilizing effect of the activism, mostly young people in those years. and since has had an impact, there is no a range of debate discussion. oh, people like me of course, can't get into the mainstream media, but we never could. that was impossible. and now at least there's alternative wish

for voices well, actually, or, well, actually you, your name has been mentioned in mainstream media and it's been defamed. and i don't know whether you want to take legal action. you're a trenchant critic of vladimir putin. and yet, if i look on the internet, the big publications calling you a put an apologist when you've spent every week since february the 24th. and we have moved to as the russian c at protect the people of don best you've spent criticising for that. we have period. why do they call you a put in apologise? because say, if you deviate from official doctrine, you're condemned as an apologist for the enemy of the state. you taught in the 1960 isabel trying to bring the horrendous war in vietnam to an end.

you're called an apologist for g men. ok, that's standard technique, vilification. you don't want to answer arguments, you throw most people that's normal and expected. but to day, if you look at mainstream establishment journals, foreign affairs, major journal, you actually find a range of critical commentary. actually not all the different from things i say, well go back years. you didn't have it just marching in a parade. furshly no descent, but of course in say, britain, they've banned c g t and the chinese channel from broadcasting r t. famously. why is it that you think russia thinks it's

fine? i think so gay lover of this week giving a press conference allowing western reporters accreditation, whereas in the united states, they obviously don't ban media in the u. s. because of the 1st amendment sunny in europe. obviously there's mass banning of journalists and journalism. what's behind it? vat and that surely does depart some what from manufacturing consent where they didn't want to ban anything. they just knew that the lower selling outlets would fail to engage the populace in, in dissident opinion. well, i say 1st of all, it's quite no oh, you look through the soon take a more recent event, the iraq or not that far back. anyone who dares to see that iraq, or was the major crime of the century, which it certainly was,

is bitterly denounced and condemned. if you look at discussion in the mainstream, you'll be hard put to find anyone who does. you can reach the mainstream, who will say the elementary truth in this indisputable truth. the theoretic war, whoosh. an example of with the nuremberg tribunal called the supreme international crime. primary aggression which differs from other war crimes only in the it includes all of the evil that follows . so find somebody who says, president bush, donald rumsfeld, dick cheney, we're guilty of the crimes for which people ranked at nuremberg. instead, what you has is celebration of george bush,

the great criminal who invaded iraq and afghanistan and destroyed them. celebration of him as a lovely person scolded, goofy graham placement, his grandchildren, painted pictures, just a delightful person. well, that's the record. it's for quite striking that anyone who dares to compare the iraq war with the russian and zation of ukraine is viciously denounced. harvard university even had a, a debate in which the debate was whether the iraq or can be considered a humanitarian intervention. a debate. suppose that moscow university had a debate on whether the russian invasion can be called a humanitarian intervention. can you imagine the reaction in the west?

what's the reaction in the westwood up in it or a close look at the openness of the american society. the reason willing to question whether this military intervention was a humanitarian intervention. oh, well, let's manufacture can shed. let me give in explicit example. recently, there were couple articles in the mainstream press chain. there is no some skepticism arising about whither russia was really responsible for the service to show the nordstrom pro pipe lodge. professor trump's gal, stop you that more from one of the world's greatest and most cited public intellectuals after this break. ah ah

ah ah ah welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with professor know i'm chomsky american dissident and co author of the pioneering book manufacturing consent, the political economy of the mass media. maybe they call you a put in apologise because you expressed doubt about a terror attack. that was one of the worst,

as if climate destroying the dera attacks, given the amount of fossil fuels released, let alone. this is what the sabotage means for energy resources for germany. you think that the mainstream media that said this must be the russians, could have got it wrong. i mean, the least likely it is the state responsible for the service is russia. it's the pipeline that was sabotaging true. it is largely owned by a russian company. what possible purpose would russia his head in destroying it's and sabotaging its own major capital investment which it counts on for supplying europe? if russia, one of the supply to stop the supply of grass is all it could do is turn off of

didn't have to destroy it. mean it's main investment. so the least likely state that can be charged is russian. so of course, the western media immediately rushed on race to say, will russia's responsible. now they're raising some skepticism that's called manufacturers consent said to framework and debate within it. but it's the framework that is insane who's likely culprit in the north stream, sabotaged who had the motive and the capability. well, just one state, united states obviously had the motive, in fact, was quite frank and open about saying that those are put not only opposing the pipelines but saying that they'll be destroyed. the motive was not secret was perfectly public. obviously had the capability adjusted large naval

movers in the region right before the 7 major ship some equipment so that the capability in the mode is clearly nobody else anything like that. the russians are the least likely cope. so manufacturing consent says, let's have a lively debate to show open and free we are. but within the framework that excludes by assumption, by the possibility the united states might have been involved will only discuss debate whether the least likely culprit is involved. well, that's effective propaganda. you don't just loi that's refutable would you do is set up the framework of discussion, which excludes totally excludes the obvious and most likely answer the in

debate. are there things are in the case of iraq, you have a debate that harvard over, whither the iraq invasion was a humanitarian invasion. you don't have a debate over whether it was the a crime, the kind of crime for which nazi war criminals were hang nuremberg, you know, an open question for discussion to discuss something ridiculous. was it a humanitarian intervention? when you carry out a shark attack against iraq, smash up the country, kill hundreds of thousands of people. have all kinds of torture and other atrocities. in fact, one of the worst crimes in the iraq war was the battle of felicia, specially the 2nd battle solution. devastating destructive murders attack by the moraine began was taking over the general hospital to war crime in itself

then destroying much of the city killing. nobody knows many people are investigated are on crimes. oh is the remember the united states? well, tell you the u. s. navy is no commissioning a new vessel in honor of the marines who fought and saluted school. the for lucia, that's the way we deal with. one of the worst crimes doesn't get reported. of course, i should say, the biden administration officially denies involvement in the terror attack on the north stream. as does the british administration off to allegations the royal navy was involved in it. and i mentioned that you're a critic of valuable putin given that angular merkle says that the minsk process was actually a delaying tactic to arm ukraine. what would you have done differently?

knowing that, that politically, within russia, vladimir putin was under pressure, given the thousands of people of the don bass being killed with nato weapons in east and ukraine. and given that the minced process was, went on for a number of years, it was adopted by the security council. what do you suppose to do after being told repeatedly that the americans weren't going to go into your grain? you again, wasn't going to join a joe and actually it was and obviously we have the details of the qu, you, if you would want further negotiations, you would have called for intermediaries with the french. that's not quite the story on the limb or kill. now says that it was a delay effort. there isn't a particle evidence in the record to support

a claim. no, nothing. at the time, germany and france took it very seriously, were pressing for a minimum of koran. actually up until couple of days before the invasion had a long interchange with couldn't, you can read the transcript published in the french press o for in various ways to reinstitute something like the minsk agreement and prevent the invasion. couldn't reject it at the end. the last conversation 4 days before the invasion, he simply rejected the discussions with contempt. so i'm sorry i have to go ice skating or something like that. well, there were opportunities. there was plenty of publication you're quite right, lots of provocation, but provocation doesn't justify aggression. aggression is

a major crime here. if you provoke me to attack you and then i attack you, i'm guilty even if i was provoked. and for the people that defend that burden's decision as a mark of a new world order to avenge iraq. just one of the wars in recent years that your government has been involved in as the global south come together, new currency is being talked about, new ways of talking about energy. perhaps even helping the climate better than any cop summit under the aegis of the united states. you don't buy that. you can't believe in a global south with china or india, lula, your friend. and i'm brazil in russia altogether. and the debt death of europe in effect. well, i think the major shifts in world are in the invasion of ukraine and the

reaction to accelerate it is one effect of the invasion of ukraine was to give the united states extraordinary gift. couldn't gave the united states and gifted it greatly relishes, it drove europe into the pocket of the united states. there's been a debate all through the cold war back to the 1940s as to whether europe should move in an independent direction be what was sometimes called a 3rd 3rd force in international affairs was pressed most vigorously, boy chose to go deliberate source politic gestures of

palm and others, united states instead and demand in what's called the latest version based on nato, which the united states runs, of course, in which europe would be subordinate to the united states. this became a major issue with the collapse of the soviet union. mikhail gorbachev proposed a common european home from lisbon to lot of us that no military alliances, no victors, no defeated common efforts to move forward towards a more or less social democratic eurasia. united states was strongly opposed, insisted on the atlanta system, or put in as in say, oh for the united states. it's highest wish preferred europe at least temporarily.

it was in his abandon search for independence finish joining subordinating itself to the states to it seemed to which some would say they were already bases at ramstein in britain, aircraft carrier for the united states for so so long. we're running a little bit shorter time professor chomsky i want to get to something really disturbing in what you've been writing recently. i thought you said and coming from the pioneer of generative grammar, i'm saying that psych loosely connected, you said that humanity can have a dedication to self destruction. what i mean, given that megan markel, of all people now claim, says she, she reads your work, and i know you send a message to her through the airways, as it were saying that you were pleased that prince harry's wife. read your work. what do you mean by a pathological, perhaps dedication to self destruction given?

we are talking obviously about some things that involve armageddon. and i know the bulletin of atomic scientists will be resetting the clock next tuesday about how close, how long we have to live. well, the bulletin said, the dues day clerk, in 1947, shortly after the atom bomb and the hands are set certain distance from midnight midnight means termination of the human species. the 1st sitting was 7 minutes to midnight. it's oscillated over the years during the trumpet ministration. they abandoned minute move to seconds. so i said around are chickens to midnight. january 24th, it will be said again, i presume. the 2nd it will be said closer to midnight. certainly should be

a man concerns or increasing threat of nuclear war. the very severe and growing threat of a destruction of the climate which is rapidly increasing. states are not doing what they know they must do to solve, discourages. the 3rd is the deterioration of an arena of rational, serious debate and deliberation with the collapse of democratic forces around the world. sounds at 1st as if that doesn't belong with the 1st 2. but it does, because that's the only hope for dealing with the 1st 2 or 3 has gotten considerably worse during the past year. unless there is a short reversal will simply be heading for a precipice falling over irreversible and not in

a long distant future. present. i'm chomsky thank you and that's it for the show. we'll be back next week with another brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch by all our social media if it's not sensitive in your country. but you can always add to our channel going on to grantee on, rumbled or come to watch new and old up. so it's going on the ground. so you very to, ah ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race, his on of very dramatic development, only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time. time to sit down and talk with

germany. he's vice chancellor accuses love in your book of holding the energy crisis raging across europe, but critics train, blah lens only got itself to play, also ahead on the program with the russian games along the river. here. unmanned aerial drones become a major component of that. fighting for don bos, we take you to the front lines where our corresponding details up close to the effects of weaponized with a senior.