sold the white man's burden and acquainted colonization to a civilizing effort. the skin color of its more than appearance may have been diluted, but the ethos is still moral. as the same, the west still sees itself as the shining city on a hill whose values practices and interests he to be bestowed on those living at the foot of that hill. for all the talk about equality can the so called international community ever part waste with the idea that some nations know what's best for the rest. we'll discuss that i'm now joined by chris is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria. professor seekins, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. would be a thank you for having me. sure. now the wetmans burden is such an easy issue. and sir, i think it's very easy to fall into propaganda here. and this is exactly what moscow has been accused of when the russian president suggested that western had gemini,

is a new form of colonialism. ah, you are more than 12000 kilometers away from moscow in pretoria. and yet, i've seen you make, not the exact, but the somewhat similar point you said that the russian war in the ukraine is a product of the racist international system. what do you mean by that? look, it's their assistant physician assistant. if you go back to it's already in terms of, you know, the be more than the sustain. it was, we got treated that he could give the state sisters as we know that bad and dad and the idea you know, behind you will be due to the suspect and that's the formation of the system. the system was based on a received on quality of, of being c. no, would you rope? yes. as, as spill aware at that time as,

as be deserving of human rights and privileges that go, you know, which we touch rice. i surrounded by you. look on the lights meant, eat on the order and you know, non western, as we're talking about africa as we're talking about our ab issue as caribbean people's lives in the very cause. and he won't slack at some point and where he got it as the non b san who did not speak to enjoy, you know, the privilege depend their feet and rights. and that's the international system. so to see a good he is back west and you were by the time and you know, keep, you know, supposed to do another speak quickly enjoyed it. and for me, and this is high view, you know, the different approaches in order to similar country say, well, as we see in the united me shows, i approached to the general side, you know, one day and i spent 4 spots seen 20 days with, you know, was in the soak, you know,

and the united initials responding differently as you know so, so that's what i mean by that races international sister. and i'd be will say risk control of beans by says non b, u t once one site has been sunday. oh, that is not, can i ask you here? where do you think the russians fall within this? his spectrum of being beings where it says known beings? because on the one hand, we are white and we for a long time, it to believe that we are part of the western civilization. but historically, for many centuries, it's pretty clear that the rest there, the rest of the west considered as, as will sort of semi barbarians if not full time barbarians. well, like i said, it was the west versus the rest. and, and im, however, you wanna look at a book out for me if you asked me directly, bowen to speak honestly. well, all i am looking tensile he couldn't yoga to of power or shuffles. m a well

within that prison off of, of, of, of one of the powerful steeds. sam, that's, that's, that's, that, that's in some ways, is a colonizer a grocer, doesn't have b. oh, cool. yeah, baggage in africa and this is one of the air of photos that dr. hansing whist. since the man in our friend biosolution has always supported the liberation struggle. not only for political reasons, but also for you know, spiritual and ideological reasons. because i truly believe that the inner, it, it come from a different understanding of how you deal with diversity. and, yeah, i agree, and that's why i said russia doesn't have that by, did you africa? well, he doesn't mean that russia does not have the cooling out by just intensified as 3 . it said we did snable as a story cut. now up, there is an am asking about this is because it, if i understood your thesis correctly and the, let me know for i was wrong here. you believe that the in inequality of

the enter it on bissonnet national system rests primarily within the un security council. and it's we the powers which according to you permit some countries to become rich and powerful and preserved that privilege on the back of exploiting others. and i think that i currently describes the western approach to the world over a couple of centuries. but is it equally true about russia and china? because i do believe that these 2 countries have, who are also un security council members and who use b to powers? they have a so indifferent approach to how they deal with other nations. big and small. yeah, they do have a different approach, but the dp result is the same for the for, for be you know, countries of less apart that the package that lives they can talk about china for example, and ease me use a different fact is by the end of the p and, and if africa as foreign policy is to be controlled or impacted by

an or a, china's economic and tedious, we call it then at the end of the be, it is about control is about power. ultimately the gain is about power. this is where i am at some point the lies between black and white. a western i'll easter not because to be blurred because i, that's a, that's stable where powerful countries cease color the call quote races and doesn't, doesn't county races only because an instrument watching that power. so it's nearly if you eatable, if it's about, if you look at it from a power point of view for the quality of pop when of you day, and we can begin to use that layers to interrogate chain. i use that last time. it's a russia and i cities because these 3 countries, the united states, raso, china, i the biggest as pop our competitors in africa, courtland best way, interests africa. but professor, if again i,

i think it was one of the end in liberation. the heroes who said that power is not given it's taken, and you may put the on us on the great powers, but it isn't it also within the recipients of their policies to, you know, ask for and more dignified and warfare treatment. i mean, does it really make sense to blame russia, china with the united states for that matter? if the country is ready to stay in a somewhat passive position? no, i agree with. you call it kitty. it doesn't make sense or blended. and that's why i don't do the blend g h a lid lighted by. want to talk about you, you, you hear us as we crape. i don't, i don't want to talk about will still be in between russia and, and he was supposed asked to rate, is she an a so you have core it that is ceaseless useful to be it. and this is why i'm saying that and, and it's, it's, it's, it's a pizza, shame that despite africa's and you know, vast an oil resources, africa,

std pains, on, on, on russia, you know, at a side area, oh, for oil, despite its arable land, agricultural land, roast the courts in it, it still is to the biggest in ports that will suite from, from, from, from russia. any, craig, this is, this is, this is mr. swanner acceptable. so if i forgot, deserves a puts his house in order organize. it says when it's kelly or eagles, 13 weeks d, and get a little deeper rust his sisters that he inherited from full acquittal youngest. if he doesn't see done or put us together, it will not be forced to work on we. it will not be hugged at any kind of privilege or power a body snorting it. we are not saying therefore that it will not have to sit that by by force. yas will take that pow gazoomba sift for monday, so that you've got andras' bit of the international system. that alone is we happy hunt bacon for cancels gates. i want to go back to something you wrote,

and he said that the in this sir unequal international system when the you and security council at its center. and this system allows powerful countries to break international law. without any consequence, be it, russia, ukraine, or the united states in iraq see, really been in for very long list of other countries. is it really fair? and just to put the russia and the united states on the same world hooting here, because russia is not fighting on the other side of the globe for some corporate interest. this is a very direct, very immediate, very visceral struggle for us. and we see that as a struggle for our own independence, not for the ukrainian land, not against the ukrainian people, but against the western efforts to militarize our neighbor and to turn it into a hostile state against us. is it fair to equip russia and america here? well and it's, it's still current. it's a matter of firm you know you,

if you were trickled in, denzil fawny, sam didn't arisen with seating social scene and f brabs a young despite a glove wendy. united states house as you know, and, and defied, eats a national order or a more daresha hot. what am it a crystal comparisons? it's about vital interest. united states hasn't fought on its territory. we are fighting on the, on our border and i, in the territory that historically, not only belong to the, the, the russian le land, but also hosted russian people where that's one way to look at. see, and what, another way to look at it, or celine tensile, well put russia in that category is woodrow studies, syria, ok? and next, last was notate, di rips m o m o n one didn't do in syria, it protected the state structures against the earth, the terrorist onslaught did it well in the terrorist onslaught d to wow, do you define terrors? who need to cancel? who's the finance errors trail i, i,

i want what i am the most people who use indiscriminate violence. and i was in syria back in 2012, 2013. and i've seen the corpses of, you know, 5 year old children who were killed because the, you know, over their parents, sir. cit, the everly juice or ethnic background, or because their parents worked to the government. and i don't think there is much room for argument here. sure. there were some a civil rights organizations there, but they didn't carry weapons. well, look for me. one month's answer is so the demos for dog fights actually depends on we start with where way in looking at it from. and i will so dawned at it by looking at an m b e. b role of p y greg be in, in, in the sale of africa and which in, in, in, in many ways. so of course, the webinar group is the friday tenicia and what as be a central aft closed links, we dic, russian governments, it, and just yesterday i saw the head of the group out in

o contesting for was doing this i between the russian army and, and bid cells in, in, in, in recovery and russian ground in, in, in parts of eastern creek. so, so for me and of course i grew with you that and there's on his dash are traits will close down the case of russia aggression he in, in, in you cray. ah, what one could also push back a seed at an m. m is it's, yeah is, is, is russia is, is, is, is, is this war in ukraine really about an anesthesia traits. so rush out all i'm url, shes old letterman put his need for recognition ab at, in an international system where he wants to get us as big if still influence us as the rush as the u. s. s. are you logged in the cold war era? professors again, we have to take a very short break, but let's keep that that last question in mind, and we will return to it just after

a few moments statement. ah, what we've got to do is identify the threads that we have is crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offensive, very dramatic development. really, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with

with, with when it was set up with the law school or be on with white glove. you know we do mobile school could border slash a flash. yeah. cuz i thought that was good enough. i just wondered, was in the social love to let you know this globally, they're called what, what so which of this is work for those? who will do it all good with no feet long. all in one it will be less room. would you do less? ah

welcome back to wells appointment crease is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professors that can just before their break regards to the issue of what are rushes a lot of importance, motives in rushes incursion, military incursions into your crime and you suggested that it's his search for recognition. don't you think that there were plenty of other ways that the westwood ground level, i didn't put enough recognition or of anything i if he actually told the american line. well, i don't think that if you look at american politics, i don't think that any president am in nazi will, especially the last one and before but by and had the audacity okay to 20 book russia the i or start told to chill to rush on issues

midway, what do you know one i but if we look at the american budgetary expenses and the scale of militarism inside, sending weapons, sending trainers, military trainers to ukraine, it's all public records. and you know, in the counties and billions trying to defend what us a, don't need dental trying to encourage and have you create one of the things that we have not talked about, you know, my view about despite the lack of sleep in terms of looking at wait, was responsible for the career crisis is the wheel of the ukrainian people themselves. right? and the you pretty crazy people even need to not words the good the lie. and i was told by the president the president that was will by women, the electorate, by over 73 percent will be let or is it not like the lighting was tune about it all in securing you. chris or song only for russia is he's on the way you consider

rosetti story cut a tried critical off off off in v d. u. create dixie bye to the 1700. right. well wait, wait a 2nd. i'm know that we're all fresh and she's sort of record of invading your green. in fact, the ukrainian territory has grown substantially or enduring solely at times. but i also want to add that the mandate of president laskey was in part secured on his promise, not of not only giving autonomy to ukraine. russia was never questioning the sovereignty of ukraine, but he also promised peace with the eastern regions which were shelled for a 7 consecutive years or by, by the ukrainian military. i'm in awe, let's be accurate on the historic for historical frank here. mercury. and i'm sending you that it's best in visual both. oh, few cree by russia was, is 1783. what, what do you to find as invasion then one,

you visual is envisioned away. you are next. when you visited courtroom, your forces. entrees on mixed b. did estates, and if you look at, if you should, light back a solider form of derek will use it, you know, but does not quite are equal trades will. mig, that's looking for enough transfer beat. if you, you know, what i'm saying is that we must also ask the question of why you creed feels didn't need to seek protection, thrown missile against russia. that's a legitimate question to switch gears a little bit. i, i sort of bring in african experience here as well, because separate south africa is no stranger to you, the use of force and violence for political reasons. and i'm sure you're well aware that, that the person who is a justly celebrated as the father of, of your nation nelson mandela, was once on the years terrorist list to, for precisely what we would now recognize as deliberation. struggle. i,

i think most people of goodwill, if not all people of, with, will absolutely despise the use of force, the use of violence for political purposes. but in the world that will leave in the world. as we know, it today couldn't be fully excluded, especially with the self proclaimed leader of this world using force military force so liberally. are there any other ways for the countries to insure that interest as an altitude measure? i'm not saying that this has to be an issue of 1st resort, but if push comes to shove, isn't that what south africa and most countries around the world maintain the military force for? yes, absolutely, and that's why i said africa speaking, the position of the roof looking to dialogue. what's neutral is the actually we're solving, if a problem. in fact, in the trying to see that was saw him in many african countries status in the u. s

. curative works in march and a ego which many scholars are going to see asked leaning towards the russia. and one of the things that i was jolted, e with apple is nicholas of africa for the cold war. and is, is, is, is the fact that, you know, people as seen that as the fall of negation of the u. s. e. u, africa, and munoz, ill principle of the invoice ability of, of territorial border to today and critique as the resource to peaceful means. and total resolve coffee. and so people have said that african neutrality, the new trends, so from africa state doing that food was in, we all filed late seen is one proposal of new tried to feature. but i've been sort of before resolution of coffee, both of africa has been very strong. in in been seni, that seats you know before, as a ways to resolve is complete and using what's left out. he jesse as i switch was possible

and i think that that's a very good point. and he started on the course with the principles of the african union itself. and i've also seen you right. this conflict as tragic and ag lee is it may be, it may also for the international system in too much delayed reforms. and in fact, it's an atrocity that you mentioned of african countries and many other countries that they refused to subject themselves to sometimes very have the american pression, sometimes outright blackmail by the american officials. isn't that also a sign or a slight change that you know, other countries in a known super powers? i know demanding something from a quote unquote big guys. but actually recognizing that own importance and the importance of taking a stance and the importance of pursuing their own interests. d. d, the, like i said, is this the line? the induced conflict in the similar civil line is, is for forming the chords,

international state where as we have, because, you know, it's not, it's not going to sustain assets, it's quarterly. and i, you know, we, melissa, god knows that every country of course has its interest. but when they call the 1900, and any, for example, was shows that the war east of, you know, introduce 10 days. we are committed in bidding week and be kind of famous feed foreign policy philosophy of cultural that air which, which, which, which is that african foreign policy is beautiful, is the inter connectivity of, of, of all of humanity. so if we go, we talk about these individual national interests. well, most of us will be actual, what explanation, it grew, my interests are, what is their interest on every book? every, every state is important. if there's any africa with this book initial and it's resources, i mostly have a seat in the civil and in determining what are nobody interest is going to be also

in big decision making and force mental or at least shows. so government backed in some nation and i think you would agree with me that the formulation of this global agenda also presupposes, you know, they realization of the spirit of a moon philadelphia talking about it presupposes that countries are regardless of their size or power a, treat each other as moral equals and i, after he died, a law died from african thinkers and african leaders suggesting that the, for example, the united states needs to change its approach to africa. and it needs to treat africans fairly with dignity as equal partners, rather than somebody who oh, needs to be told what to do or needs to be wasted into serving the american understanding of the bilateral relationship. my question to you as somebody who studies the united states professionally and over time, do you think the years bureaucracy is philosophically ontologically capable of tuning any one as equal and one dad than me and that they will have to part ways

when this very attractive with ultimately supremacist idea of the shining cd on a hill that have to bestow it slide on all of us the rest of us and enlighten. well m m, look dear, you're in to sher miss changing air right now. and it, you know, one of the things that interest me, india new or africa policy. and is the notion old, it to seen an, a, dealing with africa equal populace. that's something that the, when does it mean because it's a beautiful phrase, but one doesn't mean in practice. equally our nurse will be the starting point is, is, is having that freeze. i'm dad, that phrase is, is, is, is cindy document is his ground for africa, or do you notice these 2 are codes in terms of giving that phrase if leaving minnie saw in terms of her little e, erica glazing africa agency, or in terms of eulu, mergers, given it bought

a lot in africa to take part in discourse shows that it's, i mean, it's interest there determining its future rights at you. you're talking about allowing somebody to even take part in the discussions now they've been following their decisions that i'll follow from them. discussion, but simply, you know, having a seat in the table, isn't that a little bit too modest to ask for? when it is void is board, we don't do we, as africa have the out as structures in least will actually be useful. many off off of your porcine t at present it, it'll, oh for example, am i rooted piece recently about why it is equal to and for africa will studied united fees as well. and this is what we're doing at our center. we are trying to understand the latest is as in mission and as a society brought us is quality's book into alternative causal sheets, canals, which reclamation is economy companies called commercials, heat africa. what i'm seeing that we need to repeat kids said does like, might

a cause, the exact words nit sold out and we can develop it simply for dealing with the lead estie so that it can have an africa u. s. policy rather than the u. s. africa points, or i professor ziegler, this is, this is a great idea, but an o for example, in rushing china m many of such center as they know the united states pretty wealth . but i think the difference between their approach in the african approach is that they not only formulate their policy, but they had tried to stand their ground and defend their interest. and the united thing dotson will hang that at all when push comes to child when their interest they involve, they're not ready. i mean, they're rhetorically, they are always ready to treat you as an equal partner. but when it comes to their interest, they hardly ever compromise. my last question to you is, do you think the united states practically is capable of treating any one, any peer? let's say russia, china, the european union, or let's say it, india, or south africa as a practical, equal, as somebody who's interest need to be not only talked about,

but respected security, interest, economic interest, human interest, et cetera. well, looked in at a b, b by smile aside, is that it is capital over dorinda. the letter st. is those not even due to super power does not have the capability. okay, to put is the entire war. is shaney given because of new force of concrete, new colorful. so is security human is churchy. that is the looking on of at what he let us. this also has his own weaknesses. we been itself, or i absolutely does not pretend any more to be des training. a ballpark develops tit it recognizes that it needs alex i've, let's, he's not going to bump. was that it's we, by, by, by a, by force or threat will force as cities to do before. and for me am, is starting point, like i said, would be testy. he scored policy towards africa and i think that is only fair to give them sight to see how that plays up. if you me yell to from out, we're able to see down and look at the people on the scene test looking peanuts he

showed us when he promised that i'd be made to african lead us in the western term . the u. s. at sir u. s. africa need esl me that heading west until he december. we would do it personal to him of all of these. i been outside that was stone wall sally air, but for now defied that there is a busy wolf made as he she's to, was recalled, lies in africa, be jesse, for example, asked equal partners would see how that rule shall woods to actual ident judge. we have to live in there. i really appreciate your time today with us. thank you. thank you for having and thank you for watching hope to searing down on the wells apart. ah

ah lou in each counter, russian state will never be as tight as on the no santini div. asking him, i'm not getting a group in the 55 with will van in the european union? the kremlin? yup. machine restate on russia for date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

mm. a ah, with there by that. got a right mm. yeah, i'm not doing it you, but i would be when you're in never mind. i've done a harder deal with the roof, a horse video like b as in boy you move, sheila wouldn't see what you would believe in if you worked with you way more. you move bob by san ramon or neil.