ah hello and welcome to wells apart. more than a century since we're generic, kipling extolled the wide men's burden and acquainted colonization to a civilizing effort. the skin color of its more than appearance may have been diluted, but the ethos is still more or less the same. the west still sees itself as the shining city on a hill whose values, practices, and interests need to be bestowed on those living at the foot of that hill. for all the talk about equality can the so called international community ever part waste with the idea that some nations know what's best for the rest. was to discuss that

i'm now joined by crease, is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria. professor seekins, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. would be or thank you for having me. you sure. now there wetmans burden is such an an easy issue. and sir, i think it's very easy to fall into propaganda here. and this is exactly what moscow has been accused of when the russian president suggested that western had gemini. it is a new form of colonialism. ah, you are more than 12000 kilometers away from moscow in pretoria. and yet, i've seen you make, not an exact, but the somewhat similar point you said that the russian war in the ukraine is a product of the racist international system. what do you mean by that? look for it. it's the resistance tradition system. if you go back to,

it's already in terms of, you know, the more there's the sustain it was, we got tricky that introduce the systems as we load it, bad and, and dads and the idea you know, behind you will be due to the suspect. and that's the formation of the system space system was based on a received on polo d off of being c. no. would you rope? yes, as, as the same as, as be deserving of human rights and privileges that go, you know, we, we switch rice are surrounded by the gun lights meant, eat on the order and you know, non western as we're talking about africa as we're talking about our ab issue as caribbean people's lives in the very cause and he won't slap actual point and where he got it as the non b san who did not speak to enjoy, you know,

the privilege depend defeats and rights. and that's the international system. so to see a pretty is back west and you were by the time as well, you know, to be, we're not supposed to do. another patriot can enjoy it. and for me, and this is high view in all the different approaches in order to similar country say, well, as we see in the united nations, i approached to the general side, you know, one day later for us. but i think there's moving yellow was in the soak, you know, and the united initials responding differently as you know. so, so that's what i mean by that races international sister. and i will say risk control of being by says non b b once one side as being santiago as not can i ask you here? where do you think the russians fall within this spectrum of being brings where it says known beings? because in the one hand, we wipe and we for a long time, it to believe that we are part of their western civilization. but historically,

for many centuries, it's pretty clear that the rest, the, the rest of the west considered as, as will sort of semi barbarians if not full time barbarians. well, like i said, it was the west versus the wrists. and, and im however, you wanna look at a book out for me. if you ask me, derek lee bowen to speak honestly. well, i am looking tensile you couldn't yogato power russia force and are well within that prison off of, of, of, of one of the powerful steeds sam, that's, that's, that's, that, that's in some ways is equal nizer. i, russia doesn't have b. oh, cool. yeah. by d, gina africa, and this is one of the air of factors that drive lansing whist. since indians in our friend, by lucy bush has always supported the liberation struggle not only for political reasons, but also for, you know, spiritual and ideological reasons. because a true and believe that the inner, it, it come from

a different understanding of how you deal with diversity. yeah, i agree, and that's why i said russia doesn't have that by, did you africa? well, it doesn't mean that russia does not have it couldn't out by, di, intensified as 3. it said meet its neighbors. a story cut. now, there is an am asking about this is because it, if i understood your thesis correctly and the, let me know for i was wrong here. you believe that the in inequality of the entry on decent national system rests primarily within the un security council on its way to powers which according to you permit some countries to become rich and powerful and preserved that privilege armed and back off. exploiting others. and i think that i currently describes the western approach to the walt over a couple of centuries. but isn't equally true about russia and china because i do believe that these 2 countries have,

who are also un security council members and who use b to powers. they have a so indifferent approach to how they deal with other nations, big and small. yeah, they do have a different approach, but the to the teacher is lot is the same for the for, for be, you know, countries or less apart that the package actually lives. they could talk about china, for example, and eat me, use a different axis by the end of the p and. and if africa as foreign policy is to be controlled or impacted by an or a china, as economy and taking sweet calls in it. then at the end of the be it is about control is about power. alternately, this gain is about power. this is where i am at some point the lies between black and white, a west and east or not because to be blurred because i ducks at that table where powerful countries cease color. the call quo. racism doesn't,

doesn't county races only because an instrument watching that power. so it's nearly if you eatable, if it's about, if you look at it from a pop point of view for the commonality of pop when of you day and you can begin to use that. there's tool in federal gate chain. i use that last time. the arrow shot . and i cities because these 3 countries, the united states, russia, china, i the biggest as pop our competitors in africa, courtland best way, interest africa. but professor, if again i, i think it was one of the aimed in liberation heroes who said that power is not given. it's taken. and you may put the on us on the great powers, but it isn't also within the recipients of their policy is to, you know, ask for more dignified and warfare treatment. i mean, doesn't really make sense to blame russia, china with the united states for that matter. if the country is ready to stay in

a somewhat passive position, no, i agree with you called kitty. it doesn't successful blended. and that's why i don't do the blinking. i actually liked it by want to talk about you. you, you hear us was way crape. i don't, i don't want to talk about was to be in between russia and, and he was supposed escalate to re issue and a, so you have court that is ceaseless useful to be it. and this is why i'm saying that and, and it's, it's, it's, it's a pizzey. so shame that despite africa's, oh, you know, fast. i have an oil resources, africa, std pains, on, on, on russia, you know, and as side area. oh, for oil, despite its arable land, agricultural land, where all the courts in it, it still is to the biggest in puerto, off we from, from, from, from russia and the craig. this is, this is, this is this disorder acceptable? so if i forgot, deserves a puts his house in order organize. it says when it's kelly or needles,

starting with d m b, e o d d t deep harvest. his sisters that he inherited from franklin on the, on this if he doesn't see done or put us together, it will not be forced to work on we, it's what log be. how did any kind of pre legal power and here, body, snorting it. we are not saying therefore that it will not have to sit that part by force. yas will take that pow gazoomba sift for monday, so that you've got andras' spit while the international assistant bed alone is we happy hon. bigger for counsels eats. i want to go back to something you wrote, and he said that the in this sir unequal international system when they, you answer to counsel at its center. and this system allows powerful countries to break international law. without any consequence, be it, russia, ukraine, or the united states in iraq see, really been in for very long list of other countries. is it really fair? and just to put the russia and the united states on the same world hooting here, because russia is not fighting on the other side of the globe for some corporate

interest. this is a very direct, very immediate, very visceral struggle for us. and we see that as a struggle for our old independence north, whether ukrainian land not against the ukrainian people, but against the western efforts to militarize our neighbor and to turn it into a hostile state against us. is it fair to equip russia and america here? well, am it's, it school could, it's a matter of firm, you know, you, if you were little cold in terms of funny. and then the reason we tune tensile scene and perhaps a young despite a glove. when to united states, as artists you know, and, and defied, eats on national order, or a more derucia has. what am it assistant comparisons? it's about vital interest. united states hasn't thought on its territory. we are fighting on that on our border and i, in the terrace, is that historically not only belong to the, the, the russian le land,

but also hosted russian people where that's one way to look at. see, and what, another way to look at it. also, li tensile, well, put russia in that category eastward, russia tedious, syria. okay, and that stuff was notate, i rips m m and one didn't do in syria. it protected the state structures against the earth, the terrorist, all flawed. did it well in the terrorist onslaught d to wow, do you defy a terrors? who need to cancel? who's the finance errors, trail i i yeah i one what i'm them as people who use indiscriminate violence and i was in syria back in 2012, 2013. and i've seen the corpses of, you know, 5 year old children who were killed because the, you know, over their parents, sir. cit, the everly juice or ethnic background, or because their parents worked to the government. and i don't think there is much room for argument here. sure. there were some a civil rights organizations there, but they didn't carry weapons. well, look for me,

one month's answer is to so the demos for dog fights actually depends. all we start with where way in looking at it for and i will so don't act it by looking at an m b e b rule of b y greg being in the sale of africa and which in, in, in, in many ways. so of course, the webinar group is the private nisha and what as be a central aft close links medic, russian governments, it and just b as so the head of the group and you know, and contesting for was deemed there is i between the russian army and and i'd be itself in, in, in, in recovery and russian ground in, in, in parts of eastern creek. so, so for me and of course i grew with you that and there's on the spanish are traits will close to 90 k. so brush us like brush only in you cray, or what one could also push back a seed at an m. m. is it, it's, it is, is,

is russia, is, is, is, is, is this war in ukraine really about m a and is essential traits. so rush out. org. i'm url, shes old letterman put his needful recognition ab at, in an international to stem wait, he wants to get us as big if still influence as ice. the rush as the u. s. s. r e lab during the cold war era. the professors again, we have to take a very short break, but let's keep that that last question in mind, and we will return to it just after a few moments statement. ah, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings,

except where such orders in conflict with the 1st law show you and i them just in case we should be very careful about official intelligence. and the point obviously is to great trust or rather than fear i would like to take on various jobs with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time. time to sit down and talk

ah welcome back to was a point with chris is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professors and can just before their break regarding the issue of what are rushes or blinding opens multis in rushes incursion, military incursions into your crime, and you suggested that it's his search for recognition. don't you think that there were plenty of other ways that the westwood ground level, i didn't know, put enough recognition or of anything i if he actually told the american line. well, i don't think that if you look at the american politics, i don't think that in the president, i am not even especially the last one before. but by and

had the audacity ok till i tried the book or oshea the i was trying to chill to rush on issues midway. what do you know? one, i but if we look at the american budgetary expenses in the scale of military and sending weapons, sending trainers, military trainers to ukraine, it's all public records. and you know, in the counties and billions, but i'm not trying to defend what us. i don't need to and so trying to encourage and have you create one of the things that we have not talked about. you know, my view about this particular course in terms of looking at wait was responsible for the korea crisis, is the wheel of the ukrainian people themselves. right. and the cree crazy people, if they do not words the good the lie. and i was told by the president, the president that was, will by women, the electorate, by over 73 percent of the lead, or is it not like the lies equals to about,

you know, in securing ad you, chris or son only for russia, is usually way you can see the ro, shasky story cut and tried critical off off of in v d u craig fixing by to the 1700. right, well, wait, wait a 2nd. i'm know that we're all fresh and he's got a record of invading your green. in fact, the ukrainian territory has grown substantially or during solely at times. but i also want to add that the mandate of president laskey was in par secured on his promise, not of not only giving autonomy to ukraine. russia was never questioning the sovereignty of your brain, but he also promised peace with the eastern regions which were shelled for a 7 consecutive years by by the ukrainian military. i'm in, oh, let's be accurate on this historic for historical front here. mercury. and i'm

sending you that it's best in visual both. oh feel cree by russia was. is 1783. what, what do you to find as invasion then? one you visual is envision where you are next. when you visited courtroom, your forces on price on next, the did estates. and if you look at, if he should light back a, some of the form of derek couldn't use it, you know, but that's not quite terrible. traits will big absolutely. point. i've tried to beat if you, you know, what i'm saying is that we must also, as the question of why you, cree feels didn't lead to seek protection thrown missile against russia. that's a legitimate question to switch gears a little bit. i, i sort of bring in african experience here as well, because separate south africa is no stranger to you, the use of force and violence for political reasons. and i'm sure you're well aware that the, the person who is a justly celebrated as the father of,

of your nation nelson mandela, was once on the years terrorist lists for precisely what we would now recognize as deliberation. struggle i, i think most people of goodwill, if not all people have with will absolutely despise the use of force, the use of violence for political purposes. but in the world that will leave in the world as we know it today. cool than before we excluded, especially with the self proclaimed leader of this world using force military force so liberally. are there any other ways for the countries to ensure that interest as an altitude measure? i'm not saying that this has to be an issue of 1st resort, but if push comes to shove, isn't that what south africa and most countries around the world maintained their military force for? yes, absolutely, and that's why i said africa speaking, the position of the roof looking to dialogue and looking around the actually we'll

so, i mean, it is a problem. in fact, in trying to see that was saw in, in, in many african countries stand in the us care of working much and day eagle, which many scholars are going to see actually leaning towards the russia. and one of the things that i was jolted us, i told the snake little of africa that the cold war and is, is, is, is the fact that, you know, people seen that as the fall of negation of the you were you african munoz. it'll principal of the evil ability of territorial border to, to say, critique as the resource to peaceful means and add to total resolve coffee. and so people have said that african neutrality didn't try to. so some african state doing that food was in, we all filed late scene, is one principles of, of new, tried to teach. what sort of before resolution of coffee,

both of africa has been very strong. in in been seni, that seats you know before, as a ways to result is completely using what, let's route is c as, as, which was possible. and i think that that's a very good point and stand on the course the principles of the african union itself. and i've also seen you right, this conflict as tragic and actually is it may be, it may also for the international system in too much delayed reforms. and in fact, this is an atrocity that you mentioned of the african countries and many other countries that refuse to subject themselves to sometimes very having american push, and sometimes outright blackmail by the american officials. isn't that also a sign of a slight change that in other countries in a known superpowers are not demanding something from colon going big guys. but actually recognizing that own importance and the importance of taking

a stance and the importance of pursuing that all the interests, d, d. the, like i said, is the silver lining in this conflict in the symbol and civil line is, is for forming the cords and national state where as we'll have it. because, you know, it's not, it's not going to sustain assets, it's quarterly. and i, you know, we, melissa, god knows that every country of course has its interest. but when the call the 1000 pound any, for example, as shows that the war east, you know, interest depended. we are committed in getting we and the kind of philosophy foreign policy, most of your proposal, the air which, which, which, which is south africa foreign policy is beautiful, is the connectivity of, of, of, of all of my mitzy. so if we go, we talk about these individual national interests. well, most of us will be at what excluded it grew, my interest, i, what is that interest and every but every, every state is important. if there's any africa, we've spoken many, your sources,

i'm most should have a seat in the civil and indeterminate. what are nobody interested is going to be also in big decision making around, in force mental or at least shows. so government acts international. and i think you would agree with me that the formulation of this global agenda also presupposes, you know, they realization of the spirit of a moon philadelphia talking about it presupposes that countries are regardless of their size or power a, treat each other as moral equals and i've heard that a law dog from african thinkers and african leaders suggesting that for example, the united states needs to change its approach to africa. and it needs to treat africans fairly with dignity as equal partners, rather than somebody who i needs to be told what to do or needs to be wasted into serving the american understanding of the bilateral relationship. my question to you as somebody who studies the united states professionally and over time,

do you think the years bureaucracy is philosophically ontologically capable of treating anyone as equal and one dad than me and that they will have to part ways in this very attractive with ultimately supremacist idea of the shining cd on a hill that have to bestow it slide on all of us the rest of us and enlighten. well, m m, look dear during teacher miss changing air right now and did you know, one of the things that interest me, india, new or africa policy? and is the notion of it to seen and a dealing with africa, equal partners. that's something that to the, why does it mean because it's a beautiful phrase, but one doesn't mean and practice equal partners when be the starting point is, is, is having that freeze. i'm dad, that phrase is, is, is, is cindy document is his ground for africa toward the latest. these 2 are codes in terms of giving that phrase it leaving many so in terms of her

usual, e, erica glazing africa, see jesse or in terms of you little law. just given you bought a law in africa to take part in discourse shows that it's, i mean, it's interest there determining its future rights at you. you are talking about allowing somebody to even take part in the discussions now they, when following the decisions that are follow from them discussion. but simply, you know, having a seat in the table, isn't that a little bit too modest to ask for? when it is void is bored, we dog we as africa, have d, n a structures, the least will actually be useful. lini off off of the opportunity at present it it'll oh for example, am i rooted piece recently about why it isn't put on for africa? will studied united fees as well, and this is wardweb dinner at our center. we are trying to understand the latest is as in mission and as a society merge us is quality's book in till turned to conceal sheets commercials

which reclamation is economy companies? caucone shows here, africa. what i'm seeing that we need to repeat kids said does like my across the exact words knit, sought out, and we can develop the template for daily. will you let us do so that can have an africa us policy rather than us africa policy, or professor ziegler, this is, this is a great idea. but an o, for example, in russian china, in many of such center as they know, the united states pretty wealth. but i think the difference between their approach and the african approach is that they not only formulate their policy, but they had tried to stand their ground and defend their interest. and you're noticing, dotson will hang that at all when push comes to child when they're interest they involve, they're not ready. i mean, they're rhetorically, they are always ready to treat you as a nickel partner. but when it comes to their interest, they hardly ever compromise. my last question to you is, do you think the united states practically is capable of treating any one? any peer? let's say russia, china, the european union, or let's say it, india,

or south africa as a practical, equal, as somebody who's interest need to be not only talked about, but respected security, interest, economic interest, human interests, et cetera. well look in it a, b, b by smile aside, is that it is capital over dorinda. the letter, steve does not even boise super power, does not have the capability. okay, to put is the, it's how, what is shaney given because of new force of concrete, new colorful solves, is security. humanistic? charity that is there. we're looking all of at what he let us. this also has his own weaknesses. we been itself. all right, absolutely. he does not pretend any more to be des training. a ballpark develops tit it recognizes that it needs alex. i'm. this is not going to bump loosely sweet by by, by, by force or threat will force, as it's used to do before. and for me am, is starting point, like i said, would be testy, is scored quantity towards africa. and i think that is only fair to give them tie

to see how that plays up. if you me yell to and from mout, we're able to see down and look at people on the scene test looking peanuts he showed us when he promised that i'd be made to africa, lead us in the western term, the u. s. and so are you as africa, you'd esl me, that heading west until you december? we would do it. post mortem of all of these. i been outside. that was stone wall. stay a boat for now. if i had that dearest a busy wolf made as he, she's to, was recalled, lies in africa, be jesse, for example, as equal partners would see how that rule shall woods to act short. i then judge, we have to live in there. i really appreciate your time today with us. thank you. thank you for having and thank you for watching hope to syria again on the well to part. ah

ah, lou and luis, the counter russians state total narrative. i've stayed as i'm phone and the no slam gave us a sentence. i'm up for a group in the 55. we did. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy when else calls with will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today and split our t spoke neck, even our video agency, roughly all band to on you to send me to school

with me ah, that is my number 7 over there in the distance above the kilometer and a half. that is the last storm. hold all the last and hope you credit you follow god correspondent, following the russian power military group wagner. they advanced further along with don by the front lines with the strategically important town of solid out of now under russian control. the numerous folks from the united states has created a coalition and is using ukraine to wage a proxy was russia with the old aim of finally solving the russia question. russia is a foreign minister says that usa.