waste me the idea that some nations know what's best for the rest. we'll discuss that i'm now joined by chris is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria. professor seekins, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. good beer. thank you for having the you sure. now the wetlands burden is such an easy issue and it's, sir, i think it's very easy to fall into propaganda here. and this is exactly what moscow has been accused of when the russian president suggested that western had gemini, is a new form of colonialism. ah, you are more than 12000 kilometers away from moscow in pretoria. and yet, i seen you make, not the exact, but the somewhat similar point you said that the russian war in the ukraine is a product of the racist international system. what do you mean by that? look for it. it's their assistant physician assistant. if you go back to,

it's already in terms of, you know, the more there's the sustain it was, we got tricky that introduced the systems as we loaded bad. and that, and the idea, you know, behind you will be the d, d d, the suspect. and that's the formation or the system space system was based on a received on quality of, of being c. no, would you rock yes, as, as spill aware at that side as, as be deserving of human rights and privileges that go, you know, we, we switch rice are surrounded by european enlightenment each. on the other hand, you know, non western us. we're talking about africa as we're talking about our ab issue as caribbean people's lives in the very cause and he will be slash x a point and where he got it as the non b san who did not speak to enjoy, you know,

the privilege of depend defeats and rights and that's the national system. so to see a good it is back western europe at the time as well. you know, north pole, still another speak quickly enjoyed it and for me, and this is higher view, you know, the different approaches in order to similar country say, well, as we see in the united nations, i approach to the general side, you know, one day and they spent 4 spots seeing candy says moving yellow was in the soak, you know, and the united initials responding differently as you know so, so that's what i mean by that races, international sister. and as you will, serious, is going to let you know beat by this loan, b 11 side as being on the other half is not skin. i ask you here. where do you think the russians fall within this spectrum of being beings where it says known beings? because in the one hand we are white and we for a long time to believe that we are part of the western civilization. but

historically, for many centuries, it's pretty clear that the rest, the, the rest of the west consider that as sort of sending barbarians. if not we're full time barbarians. well, like i said, it was the west versus the wrists. and, and, and im, however, you wanna look at a book out for me if you asked me directly, bowen to speak honestly. well, all, i am looking tensile you couldn't yoga to of power or shuffles. m a well we being that prison off of, of, of, of one of the powerful steeds. sam that's, that's, that's that, that's in some ways is equal and isaac, i, russia doesn't have b. oh, cool. yeah. baggy in africa, and this is one of the air of photos that dr. hansing whist. since he means in our friend, vice versa has always supported the l. a veracious struggle, not only for political reasons, but also for, you know, a spiritual and ideological reasons. because i truly believe that the inner, it,

it come from a different understanding of how you deal with diversity. and, yeah, i agree, and that's why i said russia doesn't have that by, did you africa? well, it doesn't mean that russia does not have it couldn't out by just intensified as 3 . it said it's, it's neighbors, a story cut. now up, there is an am asking about this is because it, if i understood your thesis correctly and the, let me know for i was wrong here. you believe dad, dad, the in inequality of the enter it on bissonnet national system rests primarily within the un security council. and it's we the powers which according to you permit some countries to become rich and powerful and preserved that privilege on them back of exploiting others. and i think that i currently describes the western approach to the world over a couple of centuries. but is it equally true about russia and china? because i do believe that these 2 countries have who are also you in security

council members and who use b to powers? they have a so indifferent approach to how they deal with other nations. big and small. yeah, they do have a different approach, but the dp result is the same for the for, for be you know, countries of less apart that the package that lives they could talk about china for example and ease me use a different fact is by the end of the p and, and if africa as foreign policy is to be controlled or impacted by an or a, china's economy and dealings, we call it then at the end of the be, it is about control is about power. alternately this gain is about pon, this is where i am as old toy the lies between black and white. a western i'll easter not because to be blurred because i that's a, that's stable where powerful countries cease color the call quote races and doesn't,

doesn't county races only because an instrument watching that power. so alternately, if you will, if it's about, if you look at it from a power point of view from the continental to park when of you day. and we can begin to use that layer still in federal gain chain. i use that last time, be russia and i cities because these 3 countries, the united states, russia, china, i the biggest as pop our competitors in africa, courtland best way, interests africa. but professor, i, i think it was one of the end in liberation heroes who said that power is not given . it's taken. and you may put the on us on the great powers, but it isn't it also, within the recipients of their policies to you know, ask for more dignified and warfare treatment. i mean, doesn't really make sense to blame russia, china with the united states for that matter. if the country is ready to stay in

a somewhat passive position. no, i agree with you cuz it doesn't make sense to blame daddy, and that's why i don't do the plane game. actually. like if i want to talk about russ was way create, i don't, i don't want to talk about was to be in between russia and us because that's where the real issue. and of course, that is not useful to be, and this is why i'm seeing that. and it's just repeated. it's a shame that despite africa, as you know, fast oil resources, africa depends on, on russia. you know, as far as the r e b for boy, despite it's arable land, agricultural land ross, the courts in it, it still is still the biggest importer of we from, from, from, from russia. and he, craig, this is, this is, this, is this, this one receptacle. so if i forgot, does a put this housing order organize? it says, well, it's kelly, even starting with d and d, d, d,

d harvested systems that it inherited from, from the youngest. if he doesn't sit down or put us together, it will not be forced or can we? it will not be her dad, any kind of privilege or power and here body smoothly. i'm not seeing therefore, that you have to take that part by force. you have to take that by, by good, nice being safe for plenty so that you can in the respect of the international system. but that alone is we have one big 4 case of aids. i want to go after something you wrote, and you said that the in this unequal international system, when the un security council, at its center, at this system, allows powerful countries to break international law. without any consequence, be russia, ukraine, or the united states in iraq. see really been in a very long list of other countries. is it really fair? and just to put the russia and the united states on the same world fluting here, because russia is not fighting on the other side of the globe for some corporate

interest. this is a very direct, very immediate, very visceral struggle for us. and we see that as a struggle for our own independence, not for the ukrainian land, not against the ukrainian people, but against the western efforts to militarize our neighbor. and to turn it into a hostile state against us. is it fair to equip russia and america here? well, and it's, it's school could, it's a matter of firm, you know, you, if you were little cold in terms of funny. and in that raising, we'd seen social scene, and perhaps every young despite a glove. when do united states as, as you know, and, and defied, eats emotional order or a more derucia heart. what am elizabeth comparisons? it's about vital interest. the united states hasn't fought on its territory. we are fighting on her on our border and i, in the territory that historically, not only belong to the, the, the russian le land,

but also host russian. people hold where that's one way to look at. see, and what, another way to look at it, oscillate him so well, put russia in that category eastward russia, india, syria. ok. and next, last was nazi des, rips m o m, and one didn't do in syria. it protected the state structures against her, the terrorist all flawed. did it? well, it's her response loads, do you do while do you defy terrors? will be denzil, who's the finance 0. so i that i want to find them as people who use indiscriminate violence and i was in syria back in 2012, 2013. and i've seen the corpses of, you know, 5 year old children who were killed because the, you know, over their parents sir said that a religious or ethnic background or because their parents worked for the government . and i don't think there is much room for argument here. sure. there were some a civil rights organizations there, but they didn't carry weapons. well,

look for me. one month's answer is to set a demo's for dog fights. actually depends on we start with where way in looking at it for and i've also turned up it by looking knox and, and b, e, b, rule of b y greg being in, in the sale of africa. and which in, in, in, in many ways. so of course, the webinar group is the friday tenicia and what as be a central aft close links, we dic, russian governments, it, and just yesterday i saw the head of the group and you know, contesting full was doing this i between the russian army and, and get cells in, in, in, in recovery and russian ground in, in, in parts of eastern creek. so, so for me and of course i agree with you that and there's on his astonish, our traits will close down the case of russia aggression he in, in, in you cray. and what one could also push back a seed at an am and is it, it's yeah, is, is, is russia is, is, is, is,

is this war in ukraine really about an anesthesia traits. so rush out all i'm url, shes old letterman put his needful recognition ab, as in an international system where he wants to get us as big if still influence as ice. the rush as the u. s. s. r e lab during the cold war era. professors again, we have to take a very short break, but let's keep that that last question in mind, and we will return to it just after a few moments statement. ah, no, look forward to talking to you. oh, that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human

beings, except where such orders at conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about official intelligence. at the point obviously is to great truck rather than fear i would like to take on various jobs with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with ah ah

ah welcome back to wells appointment. chris is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professors. again, just before the break, we got to the issue of what are rushes a lot of evidence multis in russia's incursion, military incursion into ukraine. and you suggested that it's not his search for recognition. don't you think that there were plenty of other ways that the westwood ground level, i didn't put enough recognition or of anything i if he actually told the american

line. well, i don't think that if you look at american politics, i don't think that any president am in nazi will, especially the last one before. but by and had the audacity okay to 20 book russia the i was trying to chill to rush on issues midway. what do you know one i but if we look at the american budgetary expenses and the scale of militarism inside, sending weapons, sending trainers, military trainers to ukraine, it's all public records. and you know, in the counties and billions trying to defend what us up don't need to. and so trying to encourage and have you create one of the things that we have not talked about. you need my view about despite the lack of sleep in social, looking at wait was responsible for the career crisis is the wheel of the ukrainian

people themselves. right. and the, you pretty crazy. people even need to lot words. the good the lie. and i was told by the president the president that was will my women, the electric bible by 73 percent will be less or is it not like the lies equals to about, you know, in securing you, chris or song only for russia is he shall the way you consider rossetti story cut and tried critical off off of getting v d e craig dixie. bye to the 1700. right. well wait, wait a 2nd. i know that we're rushing to sort of record of invading your screen. in fact, the ukrainian territory has grown substantially or enduring solving times. but i also want to add that the mandate of president laskey was in part secured on his promise, not of not only giving autonomy to ukraine. russia was never questioning the sovereignty of ukraine, but he also promised peace with the eastern regions which were shelled for

a 7 consecutive years by, by the ukrainian military. i'm in awe, let's be accurate on the historic for historical frank here, mercury. and on sunday, who daddy 1st in visual golf? oh, few cree by rochelle was, is 1783. what. what do you to find as invasion then? one you visual is envisioned way you are next. when you visited courtroom, your forces on price on next, the needed estates. and if he look at, if he should light back on the bus one will derek cornel user. you know, but does not quite are, we will try to big as low the point of transfer beat. if you, you know, what i'm saying is that we must also ads. the question of why you cree feels didn't need to seek protection from missile against russia. besson legend submit coursing to switch gears a little bit. i have one, i sort of bring in african experience here as well because separate south africa is

no stranger to you, the use of force and violence for political reasons. and i'm sure you're well aware that the, the person who is a justly celebrated as the father of, of your nation nelson mandela, was once on the years terrorist lists for precisely what we would now recognise as deliberation. struggle i, i think most people of goodwill, if not all people have with will absolutely despise the use of force, the use of violence for political purposes. but in the world that will leave in the world as we know it today. cool than before we excluded, especially with the self proclaimed leader of this world using force military force so liberally. are there any other ways for the countries should ensure their interest as an altitude measure? i'm not saying that this has to be an issue of 1st resort, but if push comes to shove, isn't that what south africa and most countries around the world maintained

a military force war? yes, absolutely. and that's why i said africa speaking, the position of the roof looking to dialogue and looking around the actually we'll so, i mean, it is a problem. in fact, in trying to see that was saw in, in, in many african countries stand in the us care of working much and day eagle, which many call us after that as the ascii, leaning towards russia. and one of the things that i was was jolted us out of the snake lit of africa that cold war and is, is, is, is the fact that, you know, people seen that as the form of negation of the u. s. e. u africa and munoz, ill principle of the invoice ability of, of territorial border to, to critique the resource to peaceful means and add to total resolve coffee. and so people have said that african neutrality didn't try to so some

africa state doing that food was in we all, filed late scene is one principles of, of new trying to feature. but i've been sort of before resolution of country, both of africa has been very strong. in in been seni, that seats you know, before, as a ways to result is completely using what lot throughout agency as which was possible . and i think that that's a very good point, anti stand on the question, the principles of the african union itself. and i'm also senior, right? this conflict as tragic and adelaide is it may be, it may also for the international system in too much delayed reforms. and in fact, this is an atrocity that you mentioned of the african countries and many other countries that refuse to subject themselves to sometimes very having american push . and sometimes all tried blackmail by the american officials. isn't that also a sign of a slight change that in other countries in

a known superpowers are not demanding something from, quote unquote big guys. but actually recognizing that own importance and the importance of taking a stance and the importance of pursuing their own interests. d. d, the, like i said, is the silver lining in this conflict in the symbol and civil line is, is for forming the chords and national state where as we have it, because, you know, it's not, it's not going to sustain assets is currently an i, you know, we, melissa, god knows that every country of course has its interest. but when the call, the 1900, and any for example, was shows that the war east, you know, into the 10 days we are committed in getting we, and the kind of seamless feed foreign policy, most of your proposal, the air which, which, which, which is that africa, foreign policy is beautiful, is the connectivity of, of, of all of my mitzy. so if we go,

we talk about these individual national interests. well, most of us will be actual, what executed. it grew my interest, i. what is that interest on every but every, every state is important. if there's any africa, we've spoken many sources. i mostly have a seat in the table and indeterminate a water global interest is going to be also in big decision making around enforcement of our initial to government acts international. and i think you would agree with me that the formulation of this global agenda also presupposes, you know, they realization of the spirit of a moon philadelphia talking about it presupposes that countries are regardless of their size or power a, treat each other as moral equals and i've heard that a law dog from african thinkers and african leaders suggesting that for example, the united states needs to change its approach to africa. and it needs to treat africans fairly with dignity as equal partners, rather than somebody who i needs to be told what to do or needs to be wasted into

serving the american understanding of the bilateral relationship. my question to you as somebody who studies the united states professionally and over time, do you think the years bureaucracy is philosophically ontologically capable of treating anyone as equal and one dad than me and that they will have to part ways in this very attractive. but ultimately supremacist idea of the shining cd on a hill that have to bestow in slide on all of us the rest of us and enlighten. well m m, look dear, you're in to sher miss changing air right now. and did you know, one of the things that interest me, india, new or africa policy? and is the notion of it to seen and a dealing with africa, equal partners that something got to the some. why does it mean because it's a beautiful phrase, but one doesn't mean in practice. equal partners. when be the starting point is,

is, is having that freeze. i'm glad that phrase is, is, is, is cindy doc, or maybe it's his ground for africa toward the latest is to our codes in terms of giving that freeze it leavin mini. so in terms of her, you know, if i recall glazing africa each is c, as in terms old, you little more just given you bought a lot in africa to take part in discourse shows that it's, i mean, it's interest there determining its futile rights at you you are talking about allowing somebody to even take part in the discussions now they, when following the decisions that i'll follow from that discussion. but simply, you know, having a seat in the table, isn't that a little bit too modest to ask for? when it is void is board, we don't do we as africa have d, n a structures, the least will actually be useful. lini off off of your porcine t at present it. it'll go, for example, am i routed piece recently about why it is equal to and for africa will studied

unitas fees as well. and this is what we're doing at our st that we're trying to understand. the latest is as a mission and as a society, burgess is quality's book into alternative causal sheets, canarios, which reclamation is a commonly companies called commercial sheet africa? what i've seen that we need to repeat kids said does like my across the exact words nit sold out and we can develop it simply for dealing with the latest so that we can have an africa u. s. policy rather than the u. s. africa pointers, or professors he thought he says, this is a great idea, but an o, for example, in russian china m many of such center as they know the united states pretty wealth . but i think the difference between their approach in the african approach is that they not only formulate their policy, but they had tried to stand their ground and defend their interest. and the united thing darvin will hang that at all when push comes to child. when they're interest a involved, they're not ready. i mean, they're rhetorically, they're always ready to treat you as an equal partner. but when it comes to their

interest, they hardly ever compromise. my last question to you is, do you think the united states practically is capable of treating any one, any peer? let's say russia, china, the european union, or let's say it, india, or south africa as a practical, equal, as somebody who's interest need to be not only talked about, but respected security, interest, economic interest, human interests, et cetera. well look in it a, b, b by smile is that is that it is capital over joined act. the letter st. is those not even though it is, is super power does not have the capability. okay? to put is the, it's how, what is shaney given? because of new forces, concrete, new, colorful. so insecurity you on this churchy. that is there. we're looking all of at what you let us. this also has its own weaknesses. we being itself, all right, absolutely does not pretend any more to be des training. a ballpark develops tit it recognizes that it needs alex, i've list is not going to bump loosely sweet by by,

by, by force or threat will force as cities to do before. and for me am, is starting point, like i said, would be testy, is scored policy towards africa. and i think that is only fair to give them sight to see how that plays up. if you me yell to and from out we're able to see down and look at people on the scene. turtle community showed us when any promises that be made to africa, lead us in the western term, the u. s. at sir u. s. africa. linda. so me that held in western till he december, we would do it possible to him of all of these. i been outside that was stone wall sally air, but for now defied that there is a busy wolf made as he she's to, was recalled, lies in africa, be jesse, for example, as equal partners would see how that rule shall woods to actual ident judge. we have to live in there, i really appreciate your time today with us. thank you. thank you for having me. and thanks for watching hope to searing down on the wells apart. ah

ah. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time. time to sit down and talk with old came out to get there. we were all supposed to go home together and didn't

happen. a shot after shot after shot shot derrick was asking, where's corey? where's course i could hear them say d, o a at the scene. we knew he was gone. my name is kamani carter, and i'm currently starting a license for a gang related job ought to have been 9 years ago. my victim was and he was also a student who was attending college. his name is corey pittman. very young kids that seems, were getting involved and renders violence. 20 to 30 years ago. i think there's no question that the kitchen cripps from ballet came up here and seated this area. all my friends was either in prison now forever

or day. probably because got 7 years with just wanted one will i did my number over there in the distance about the kilometer and the hop. that is the last stronghold. oh, the last hope gradient solid at the russian entire ability group. wagner advances further along the don't bass front lines. our correspondent remains embedded with they took control of the strategically important town of product. normally starts from united states is created a coalition, and is using ukraine's way to proceed with russia. the old aim of finally solving the russia question, russia for a minute to laugh at all. so.