thanks very much for your time to always appreciate lucrative, a independent journalist life on archie. ok. that was a recap of the week. that was but don't go too far as our programs are said to get going in moment. see what showing wherever you are today. right. ahead bye for now . ah, ah ah

ah ah ah, ah ah. with me. hello welcome to wells apart. more than a century since we're generic, kipling extolled the wide men's burden and acquainted colonization to a civilizing effort. the skin color of it's more than appearance and may have been diluted, but the ethos is still moral. as the same, the west still sees itself as the shining city on a hill whose values practices and interests he to be bestowed on those living at

the foot of that hill. for all the talk about equality can the so called international community ever part waste with the idea that some nations know what's best for the rest. we'll discuss that. i'm now enjoy by chris is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professor seek is great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time . good beer. thank you for having me. sure, now there wetmans burden is such an easy issue. and it's, sir, i think it's very easy to fall into propaganda here. and this is exactly what moscow has been accused of when the russian president suggested that western had gemini. i is a new form of colonialism. ah, you are more than 12000 kilometers away from moscow in pretoria. and yet, i've seen you make, not the exact,

but the somewhat similar point you said that the russian war in the ukraine is a product of the racist international system. what do you mean by that? look for it. it's their assistant physician assistant. if you go back to, it's already in terms of, you know, the be more than the sustain. it was figure tricky that introduce the case of tells us we load it bad and, and dads and the idea you know, behind you will be, did the suspect. and that's the formation of the system space system was based on a received on follow g off of being c. no. would you rope yes, as, as the web site as, as be deserving of human rights and privileges that go, you know, we, we such rights are surrounded by the weekend enlightenment, eat, on the other hand and you know, non western us. we're talking about africa talking about our ab issue as caribbean

people's lives in the very cause and he will slap actual point and where he got it as the non b san who did not speak to enjoy, you know, the privilege of the benefits and rights and that's the international system. so to see a pretty is back western europe at the time as well. you know, keep doing school, still another speak quickly enjoyed it. and for me, and this is hired view in all the different approaches in order to similar country say, well, as we see in the united nations, i approached to the general side, you know, one day and i spent 4 spots seeing candy pulls, there's moving yellow was in the soak, you know, and the united initials responding differently as you know so, so that's what i mean by that races international sister. and as you will see, risk control the job beads. but as long be which ones one side as being fund yoda asked is not, can i ask you here?

where do you think the russians fall within this spectrum of being beings where it says known beings? because in the one hand, we are white and we for a long time to believe that we are part of the western civilization. but historically, for many centuries, it's pretty clear that the rest, the, the rest of the west considered as, as will sort of semi barbarians if not full time barbarians. well, like i said, it was the west versus the wrists. and, and im, however, you wanna look at a book out for me if you asked me directly, bowen to speak honestly. well, all i am looking tensile economy. i could see of power washer force and are well within that prison off of, of, of, of one of the powerful steeds. sam, that's, that's, that's, that, that's in some ways is equal and isaac a grocer doesn't have b o colonia body in africa. and this is all of the air of photos that dr. nancy

whist. sensi means in our friend by russia has always supported the elevation struggle, not only for political reasons, but also for, you know, spiritual and ideological reasons. because i truly believe that the inner, it, it come from a different understanding of how you deal with diversity. and, yeah, i agree, and that's why i said russia doesn't have that by, did you africa? well, it doesn't mean that russia does not have equivalent out by d. intensified as 3 it's ebony to its neighbors. a story cut. now up there is an am asking about this is because it, if i understood your thesis correctly and the, let me know why i was wrong here. you believe that the in inequality of the enter it on bissonnet national system. russ, spray maryland within the un security council, and it's we the powers which according to you permit some countries to become rich and powerful and preserved that privilege armed and back of exploiting others. and

i think that i currently describes the western approach to the world over a couple of centuries. but is it equally true about russia and china? because i do believe that these 2 countries have, who are all see you and security council members. and we use b to powers, they have a so indifferent approach to how they deal with other nations, big and small. yeah, they do have a different approach, but the deed there is a lot of the st for the for, for be, you know, countries of less apart that the package that lives they could talk about china, for example, and ease me use a different plan is by the end of the p and, and if africa as foreign policy is to be controlled or impacted by him or a china as economy and dealings with consummate, then at the end of the be it is about control is about power. alternately this gain is about power. this is where i am at some point the lies between black and white,

a west and east or not because to be blurred because i, that's a, that's stable where powerful countries cease color the call quo races and doesn't, doesn't county races only because an instrument watching that power, so it's nearly if you couple, if it's about, if you look at it from a power point of view from the continental to pop when of you day, and you can begin to use that. there's tool in federal gate chain. i use that last time. it's a arrow shop and i cities because these 3 countries, the united states, raso, china, i the biggest as pop our competitors in africa, courtland best way into africa. but professor, if again i, i think it was one of the end in liberation heroes who said that power is not given . it's taken. and you may put the on us on the great powers, but it isn't it also, within the recipients of their policies to you know,

ask for more dignified and warfare treatment. i mean, doesn't really make sense to blame russia, china with the united states for that matter. if the country is ready to stay in a somewhat passive position. no, i agree with you quickly. it doesn't make sense to blame daddy, and that's why i don't do the plane game actually. like if i wanted to talk about russ was way create, i don't, i don't want to talk about was to be in between russia and us because that's where the real issue. and of course, that is not useful to be and this is why i'm seeing that and it's, it's a pizza. it's a shame that despite africa, as you know, fast oil resources, africa depends on, on russia. you know, as far as the r e b for boy, despite it's arable land, agriculture, a land, or the coordinate. it's still is still the biggest import far off we from, from,

from, from russia. any pre, this is, this is, this is, this is a separable. so if i forgot, doesn't put this housing order organize, it says when it's kelly, even starting with d and d, d d d harvested sisters that it inherited from from the youngest. if he doesn't sit down or put us to, it will not be forced or can we? it will not be her dad, any kind of prison age or power body smartgate. i'm not seeing therefore, that you have to take that by, by force. you have to take that by, by august. me was there for monday. should i look at l. u. respect of the international assistant that only we have been hon. bigger for case of ease. i want to go after something you wrote, and you said that the in this unequal international system, when the un security council, at its center, at the system, allows powerful countries to break international law. without any consequence, be russia, ukraine, or the united states in iraq. see really been in

a very long list of other countries. is it really fair? and just to put the russia and the united states on the same world fluting here, because russia is not fighting on the other side of the globe for some corporate interest. this is a very direct, very immediate, very visceral struggle for us. and we see that as a struggle for our own independence, not for the ukrainian land, not against the ukrainian people, but against the western efforts to militarize our neighbor. and to turn it into a hostile state against us. is it fair to equip russia and america here? well and it's, it's still current. it's a matter of firm, you know, you in your world trickled in denzil forney. and then the reason we tune tensile scene, and perhaps if you, on despite a glove wendy united states house as you know, and, and defied, eats a national order or a more daresha hot. what am exclusively comparisons it's about vital interest.

united states hasn't fought on its territory. we are fighting on her on our border and i, in the territory that historically not only belong to the, the, the russian le land, but also hosted russian people where that's one way to look at c. m. but another way to look at it or sleep tensile, well put russia in that category is, would russia video syria? okay, and next last was notate direct sam m. o. and one didn't do in syria. it protected the state structures against her, the terrorist onslaught. did it well, it's her response. look, do you do? wow, do you defy it? ers, who he depends on who's the finance errors trail i, i, i warn you what i am the most people who use indiscriminate violence and i was in syria back in 2012, 2013. and i've seen the corpses of, you know, 5 year old children who were killed because the, you know, over their parents,

her sit a religious or ethnic background or because their parents were to the government. and i don't think there is much room for argument here. sure. there were some a civil rights organizations there, but they didn't carry weapons. well look for me. one month's answer is so the most for don't fight that. so it depends on we start with where we are looking at the fall. and i was told that by looking at the, the role of the library in the sale of africa and which in many ways of course, the webinar group is the private anesha. and what has been said to have close links, music, russian government. and just use b as for the head of the group and you know, and contesting for whose dream is i between the russian army and itself in recovery and russian ground in impacts of external creek. so, so for me and of course i'd really do that and there is one is especially true,

of course, of the case of russia virtual need in, in can you create what one could also push back to see that and, and is it, it is, is russia is, is this war in you create a really about and it's essential traits. so rush out, all russia has led me to, to the need for recognition at, in an international system where he wants to get as, as big if sales influence as, as the rush as the u. s. s. i re lived in the cold war era. professors i me elizabeth and the system, but the problem numbers do i need to leave with

key at the washington state? the close to the dealer, molly concluded nothing was put into the rest of the phone. i could get you one this you listen. do you want you to plot superficial that did you do you put a villa sevalla, but each with ah ah ah, welcome back to wells appointment crease is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professors again just before their break regarding the issue of what are rushes or right of

importance, multis in russia's incursion, military incursions into your crime. and you suggested that it's a his search for recognition. don't you think that there were plenty of other ways that the west was ground level i didn't put enough recognition or of anything i if he actually told them merican line. well, i don't think that if you look at american politics, i don't think that in the president and in not even especially the last one before, but by and had the oh, that's 60. okay, to 20 book roshay the i was trying to, to chill to rush on issues midway. what do you know? one, i but if you look at the american budgetary expenses in the scale of military and sending weapons, sending trainers military trainers to your screen, it's all public record. and, you know, in the counters and billions,

i'm trying to defend what us up don't in terms of trying to encourage and have you create one of the things that we have not talked about. you know, my view about this particular course in terms of looking at where it was the responsible for the career crisis is the wheel of the ukrainian people themselves. all right, and the you pretty crazy people even into not words is good the lie. and i was told by the president, the president that was with my women, the electorate, by over 73 percent of the letter is they did not like the lives equal to about it all in securing you, chris, or suddenly for russia is he shall the way you consider recess, he story cut and try critical off off of in v d you create picks him by to the 1700. right? well wait a 2nd. i know that we're all fresh and you sort of go record of invading your green

. in fact, ukrainian territory has grown substantially or during solely at times. but i also want to add that the mandate of president laskey was in par secured on his promise, not of not only giving autonomy to ukraine. russia was never questioning the sovereignty of ukraine, but he also promised peace with the eastern regions which were shelled for a 7 consecutive years or by, by the ukrainian military. i'm in awe, let's be accurate on this historic for historical front here. mercury. and i'm sending you dirty 1st in visual. both, both you cree by russia was, is 1783. what, what do you defined as invasion then? when you visually envision way, you are next, when you visited quarterly, till forces on price on next, the big needed estates. and if you look at, if he should light back on the best form of derek cornel user. you know, but that's not quite are we portrayed so big that's loading point of transfer meet

if you you know what i'm saying is that we must also asked the question of why you cree feels didn't need to seek protection from missile against russia. lesson legit submit, christine to switch gears a little bit. i. i sort of bring in african experience here as well because separate south africa is no stranger to the use of force and violence for political reasons. and i'm sure you're well aware that the, the person who is a justly celebrated as the father of, of your nation nelson mandela, was once on the years terrorist list to, for precisely what we would now recognize as deliberation. struggle. i, i think most people of good will, if not all people with will absolutely despise the use of force, the use of violence for political purposes, but in the world that will leave in the world as we know it today. cool than before

we excluded, especially with the self proclaimed the leader of this world using force military force so liberally. are there any other ways for the countries to ensure that interest as an ultimate measure? i'm not saying that this has to be an issue of 1st resort, but if push comes to shove, isn't that what? south africa and most countries around the wolfman pain, the military force for? yes, absolutely, and that's why i said africa speaking, the position of the roof looking to dialogue and looking at her out of the actually we'll so, i mean, it is a problem. in fact, in trying to see that was saw him in many african countries started in the u. s. curative, working much and day, you know, which many scholars are going to see asked, leaning towards the russia. and one of the things that i was with jolted the, with apple, from a plate of africa for the cold war. and is, is, is, is the fact that, you know,

people as seen that as the fall of negation of the you were you, african munoz, ill principle of the invoice ability of, of territorial border to, to learn to critique the resource to peaceful means and add to total resolve coffee and so people have said that africa neutrality didn't try to. so some africa state doing that food was in we all, filed late scene is one principles of, of new tried to feature. but i've been sort of before resolution of coffee, both of africa has been very strong. in in been seni, that he's 6, you know, before, as a ways to result is complete and using what, let's route he jesse as a possible. and i think that that's a very good point and he started on because the principles of the african union itself. and i've also seen you right, this conflict as tragic and actually is it may be,

it may also for the international system in too much delayed reforms. and in fact, this is an atrocity that you mentioned of the african countries and many other countries that refused to subject themselves to sometimes very have american prussia and sometimes outright blackmail by the american officials. isn't that also a sign or a slight change that in other countries in a known super powers? i know demanding something from going on. going big guys, but actually recognizing our own importance and the importance of taking a stance and the importance of pursuing their own interests. d d, the, like i said, is the silver lining in this conflict in the symbol and civil lining is, is for forming the chords and national state where as we have it because, you know, it's not, it's not going to sustain assets, it's quarterly. and i, you know, we, melissa, god knows that every country of course has of interest. but when the corporate 19,

and any for example, was shows that the war east interest depended. we are committed in bidding we and be kind of seamless of feed foreign policy. most of your proposal that air which, which, which, which is that africa foreign policy is beautiful is the connectivity of, of, of all of my c. so if we go, we talk about these individual national interests. well, most of us will be actually what i need. it grew my interest i. what is that interest on every book? every, every state is important. if there's only a africa with this book initial and it's resources and most should have a seat in the table and in determining what are nobody interest is going to be also make decision making and force mental or at least shows. so government acts in some national and i think you would agree with me that the formulation of this global agenda also presupposes, you know, they realization of the spirit of a moon philadelphia talking about it presupposes that countries are regardless of

their size or power a tree they chow there as moral equals and i've heard that a lot of from african thinkers and african leaders suggesting that. for example, the united states needs to change its approach to africa. and it needs to treat africans fairly with dignity as equal partners, rather than somebody who work. oh, needs to be told what to do or needs to be wasted into serving the american understanding of their bilateral relationship. my question to you as somebody who studies in the united states professionally and over time, do you think the years bureaucracy is philosophically ontologically capable of treating anyone as equal and one dad than me and that they will have to part ways in this very attractive with ultimately supremacist idea of the shining cd on a hill that have to bestow it slide on all of us the rest of us and enlighten. well, m m, look dear during teacher miss changing air right now and it, you know,

one of the things that interest me, india, new or africa policy. and is the notion old. it to seen an a dealing with africa equal partners. that's something that the, when does it mean because it's a beautiful phrase, but one doesn't mean in practice. equally our nurse, when we dispatch in point is, is, is having that frees. i'm glad that phrase is, is, is, is suited document is his ground for africa toward the latest. these 2 are codes in terms of giving that phrase it leaving mini saw in terms of her. you know, if i recall glazing africa agency, or in terms of your little modules, given e book, allowing africa to take part in discourse shows that it's, i mean, it's interest there determining its futile rights at you. you're talking about allowing somebody to even take part in the discussions, not even following the decisions that i'll follow from them discussion. but simply,

you know, having a seat in the table, isn't that a little bit too modest to ask for? when it is void is board, we don't to, we as africa, have the out a stretch shows the least will actually be useful. many off off of the opportunity at present it. it'll go, for example, am i rooted piece recently about why it is equal to and for africa will studied united fees as well. and this is what we're doing at our center. we are trying to understand the latest is as a mission and as a society, burgess is quality's book into alternative castille sheets, canals, which reclamation icon on the company's called commercial sheet africa. what i'm seeing that we need to repeat, kids said does like, might a cause, the exact words nits would up and we can never looked. it's emptied for dealing with the latest. isabel can have an africa u. s. policy rather than the u. s. africa points or professors, he thought he says, this is a great idea, but an o, for example,

in rushing china m many of such center as they know the united states pretty well. but i think the difference between their approach in the african approach is that they not only formulate their policy, but they had tried to stand their ground and defend their interest. and the united think doesn't, will hang that at all when push comes to child. when they're interest, they involve, they're not ready. i mean, they're rhetorically, they are always ready to treat you as an equal partner. but when it comes to their interest, they hardly ever compromise. my last question to you is, do you think the united states practically is capable of treating any one, any peer? let's say russia, china, the european union, or let's say it, india, or south africa as a practical, equal, as somebody who's interest need to be not only talked about, but respected security, interest, economic interest, human interests, et cetera. well, looked in at the b, b by smiler side is that it is capital over dwindle. the letter st. is those not even going to say super power does not have the capability. okay, to put is the,

it's how, what is shaney given because of new force of concrete, new colorful. so insecurity. he went, his churchy. that is there, we're looking all of at what he let us. this also has his own weaknesses. we being itself, or i'd absolute, he does not pretend any more to be des training. a ballpark develops tit it recognizes that it needs alex. i'd, let's, he's not going to bump. was the least we by, by, by, by force or threat will force as cities to do before. and for me am, is starting for like i said, would be testy. he scored quantity to was africa. and i think that is only fair to give them tie. so see how that plays up if you me yell to and from out we're able to see down and look at people on the scene. turtle community showed us when any promises that i be made to africa, lead us in the western term, the u. s. at sir u. s. africa, you'd esl me that held in western till you december? we would do it post mortem of all of these. i been outside that was stone wall sally air, but for now, if i heard that there is a busy wolf made as he, she's to,

was recalled, lies in africa, be jesse, for example, as equal partners would see how that rule shall woods to actual ident judge we have to live in there. i really appreciate your time today with us. thank you. thank you for having me and thank you for watching hope to searing down on the wells apart. ah ah, with

that is my number 7 over there. in the distance above the kilometer and a half, that is the last stronghold all the loss handhold gradient um solid, as the russian private, mon free group, wagner advances further along the dumbass front lines. our correspondence meets the company reports and how they secure the strategically important type of solar are also ahead. this, our numerous folks from the united states is created a coalition and is using ukraine to wage a proxy war against russia. with the old aim of finally solving the russia question .