sir, ah, on finally on the u. s. west coast, the marsh shooting in the city of monterey park. near los angeles has left 10 people dead to other at least 10 more wounded. but deadly incident happened to up a ball room. dance studio were lunar new year celebrations were being held. the body of the suspected gunman, us reportedly been funded, slumped over a van. now after he'd apparently shot himself after being surrounded by police. he said to be a male of asian descent age between 30 and 50 will as a recap of the latest news on the week. that was indeed, but don't go too far. as our programs are said, to get going in moments, see what showing wherever you are today, right ahead for ah,

ah. with hello to welcome to wells apart. more than a century since we're generic, kipling extolled the white man's burden and acquaint. they had colonization to a civilizing effort. the skin color of its more than appearance may have been diluted, but the ethos is still more or less the same. the west still sees itself as the shining city on a hill who has values, practices, and interests. he to be bestowed on those living at the foot of that hill. all the talk about equality can the so called international commune,

ever part waste with the idea that some nations know what's best for the rest. will to discuss that i'm now joined by chris, is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria. professor seekins. great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. good beer. thank you for having me. you sure. now there wetmans burden is such an easy issue. and sir, i think it's very easy to fall into propaganda here. and this is exactly what moscow has been accused of when the russian president suggested that western had gemini, is a new form of colonialism. ah, you are more than 12000 kilometers away from moscow in pretoria, and yet i've seen you make northern exact. but the somewhat similar point you said that the russian war in the ukraine is a product of the racist international system. what do you mean by that?

look for it. it's a, it's a resistant, vanishing assistant, as you go back to its origin, in terms of, you know, the more there, the sustain it was. we got treated that introduced the state systems as we loaded bad. and that, and the idea you know, behind you will be, did the suspect and that's the formation or the system space system was based on a received on quality of, of being c. no. would you rope? yes. as, as spill aware at that side as, as be deserving of human rights and privileges that go, you know, we switch rice off there, i did by the lights meant each on the other hand, you know, non western us talking about africa talking the back issue as caribbean people's lives in the very cause and he will be slash at some point and where he got it as the non b who did not speak to enjoy, you know, the privilege to depend,

defeats and rights. and that's the international system. so to see a good it is back western europe by the time as well, you know, we're not supposed to do another speak quickly, enjoyed it. and for me, and this is hired view in all the different approaches in order to similar country say, well, as we see in the united new shows, i approach to the general side, you know, one day and they spend 4 spots. think 20 days moving, ella was in the soak, you know, and the united initials responding differently as you know so, so that's what i mean by that races, international sister and as you will risk control of beans, but as long be it once one side as being on the other half is not, can i ask you here? where do you think the russians fall within this spectrum of being beings where it says known beings? because in the one hand, we are white and we for a long time to believe that we are part of the western civilization. but

historically, for many centuries, it's pretty clear that the rest, the, the rest of the west consider that as well. sort of sending barbarians if not we're full time barbarians. well, like i said, it was the west versus the wrists and and im however you wanna look at a book out for me if you asked me directly, bowen to speak honestly. well. oh. and look intensely colon yogato of power, russia falls and are well within that prison off of, of, of, of one of the powerful steeds. sam, that's, that's, that's, that, that's in some ways is equal and isaac a grocer doesn't have b. oh, cool. yeah. baggy in africa, and this is one of the air of photos that dr. hansing whist. since immune in our friend, vice versa, has always supported the liberation struggle, not only for political reasons, but also for, you know, spiritual and ideological reasons. because i truly believe that the inner, it,

it come from a different understanding of how you deal with diversity. and, yeah, i agree, and that's why i said russia doesn't have that by, did you africa? well, it doesn't mean that russia does not have. it couldn't out by just intensified as 3 . it said we did snable as a story cut. now up there is an am asking about this is because it, if i understood your thesis correctly and the let me know for i was wrong here. you believe that the in inequality of the enter it on bissonnet national system rests primarily within the un security council. and it's we the powers which according to you permit some countries to become rich and powerful and preserved that privilege on and back of exploiting others. and i think that i currently describes the western approach to the world over a couple of centuries. but is it equally true about russia and china? because i do believe that these 2 countries have,

who are also you in security council members and who use b to powers? they have a so indifferent approach to how they deal with other nations. big and small. yeah, they do have different pools, but the dp, there's lot is the same for the for, for be, you know, countries of less apart that the package lives. they can talk about china, for example, and eat me, use a different likely by the end of the p and. and if africa as foreign policy is to be controlled or impacted by an or a, china's economy and dealings. we call it then at the end of the be it is about control is about power. alternately, this gain is about power. this is way an actual point. the lies between black and white, a western i'll easter not because to be blurred because i that's about stable where powerful countries see the color, the call quote, races and doesn't,

doesn't county races only because an instrument watching that power. so nearly if you eatable, if it's about, if you look at it from a power point of view from the quality of pop when of you day, and you can begin to use that there's tool in federal gain chain. i use that last time. the arrow shot and i cities because these 3 countries, the united states, raso, china, i, the biggest as pop, are competing close enough for got currently and best way interests africa. but professor, if again i, i think it was one of the end in liberation heroes who said that power is not given . it's taken. and you may put the on us on the great powers, but it isn't. it also within the recipients of their policy is to, you know, ask for more dignified and warfare treatment. i mean, doesn't really make sense to blame russia, china with the united states for that matter. if the country is ready to stay in

a somewhat passive position, no, i agree with you quickly. it doesn't make sense to blame daddy, and that's why i don't do the plain gate actually. like if i wanted to talk about the rest of the way create, i don't, i don't want to talk about was to be in between russia and us because that's where the real issue. and so, of course, that is not useful to be and this is why i'm seeing that, and it will repeat, it's a shame that despite africa, as you know, fast oil resources, africa depends on, on russia. you know, as far as the r e b for boy, despite it's arable land, agricultural land, ross, the coordinate, it's still is still the biggest in portside of we, from, from, from, from russia. any pre, this is, this is, this is this, this one receptacle. so if i forgot, does a put this house in order organize? it says when it's kelly, even starting with d and d,

d d d harvested systems that it inherited from truck. when on the, on this, if he doesn't see done or put it has to be done, it will not be forced or can we, it will not be did any kind of present age or power and here body smoothly. i'm not seeing therefore, that you will not have to take that by by force. you have to take that by, by going, i mean, was there for monday? should i look at every respect, all the international assistant, that alone is we have one big 4 case of aids. i want to go back to something you wrote, and you said that the in this unequal international system, when the un security council, at its center at the system, allows powerful countries to break international law. without any consequence, be russia, ukraine, or the united states in iraq. see really been in a very long list of other countries. is it really fair? and just to put the russia and the united states on the same world fluting here, because russia is not fighting on the other side of the globe for some corporate

interest. this is a very direct, very immediate, very visceral struggle for us. and we see that as a struggle for our own independence, not for the ukrainian land, not against the ukrainian people, but against the western efforts to militarize our neighbor. and to turn it into a hostile state against us. is it fair to equip russia and america here? well and it's, it's still current. it's a matter of firm, you know, you, if you're world trickled in terms of funny. and in the account arisen, we've seen total seen and perhaps a young despite a glove, went united states house as you know and, and defied its a national order or a more derucia heart. what am elizabeth comparisons? it's about vital interest. the united states hasn't fought on its territory. we are fighting on her, on our border and i, in the territory that historically not only belonged to the, the,

the russian le land, but also hosted russian people where that's one way to look at see, and what, another way to look at. it also tensile well, put russia in that category eastward, russia tedious, syria. okay, and that stuff was notate diary, it's an am and one didn't do in syria. it protected the state structures against her, the terrorist, all flawed. did it well in the terrorist onslaught due to wow, do you defy a terrors? who need to cancel? who's the finance errors trail i, i, i warn you and them as people who you as indiscriminate violence and i was in syria back in 2012, 2013. and i've seen the corpses of, you know, 5 year old children who were killed because the, you know, over their parents sir, sit there religious or ethnic background or because their parents worked to the government. and i, i don't think there is much room for argument here. sure. there were some a civil rights organizations there, but they didn't carry weapons. well,

look for me. one month's answer is so that i most freed old fights actually depends . always start with where way in looking at it for and i was so good at it by looking knox and, and d e, b, rule of b y greg be in, in, in the sale of africa and which in, in, in, in many ways. so of course, the webinar group is the private nisha and what as be a central aft close links, we dic, russian governments, it and just yesterday i saw the head of the group out in o contesting full was didn't pick this up between the russian army and and bid cells in, in, in, in recovery and russian ground in, in, in parts of eastern creek. so, so for me and of course i agree with you that and there's on his astonish, our traits will close down the case of russia aggression. he, in any cray, ah, what one could also push back a seed at m m m is it's, yeah is, is,

is russia is, is, is, is, is this war in ukraine really about an anesthesia traits. so rush out. org. i'm url, shes old letterman put his need for recognition ab at, in an international system where he wants to get us as big if still influence as ice. the rush as the u. s. s. r e lab during the cold war era. professors again, we have to take a very short break, but let's keep that that last question in mind, and we will return to it just after a few moments statement. ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threads that we have a crazy confrontation. let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic

development. personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful. very difficult. i'm time to sit down and talk ah welcome back to was a point with chris is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professors that can just before the break regarding the issue of what are rushes a lot of importance, multis in rushes incursion, military incursion into your crane. and you suggested that it's a his search for recognition. don't you think that there were plenty of other ways that the westwood ground level? i didn't put enough recognition or of anything i if he actually told the american

line. well, i don't think that if you look at american politics, i don't think that in the president and in nazi will, especially the last one before. but by and had the audacity okay to 20 book or australia, i was trying to talk to rash on issues midway. what do you know? one, i but if we look at the american budgetary expenses in the scale of militarism inside, sending weapons, sending trainers, military trainers to ukraine, it's all public records. and you know, in the counties and billions trying to defend what us up don't need dental trying to encourage and have you create one of the things that we have not talked about, you know, my view about despite the lack of sleep in social, looking at wait was responsible for the career crisis is the wheel of the ukrainian

people themselves. right. and the you pretty crazy people even need to lot words. the good the lie. and i was told by the president the president that was will by women, the electorate, by over 73 percent will be literary. is it not like the live stream about, you know, in securing you, chris or song only for russia? if he's on the way you consider ro, shasky story cut a tried critical off off of getting v d e craig picks him by to the 1700. right? well, wait a 2nd. i know that we're all fresh and he sort of go record of invading your screen . in fact, the ukrainian territory has grown substantially or enduring solving at times. but i also want to add that the mandate of president laskey was in part secured on his promise, not of not only giving autonomy to ukraine. russia was never questioning the sovereignty of ukraine, but he also promised peace with the eastern regions to reach were shelled for

a 7 consecutive years or by, by the ukrainian military. i'm in, ah, let's be accurate on the historic for historical frank here. mercury. and i'm sending you that it's best in visual both. oh, for you. cree by rochelle was, is 1783. what, what do you to find as invasion then one you visual is envisioned way you are. next . when you visited courtroom, your forces on trace on next, the big needed estates. and if you look at, if you should light back on the best form of barrett cornel user, you know, but does not quite, are we portrayed so big as loading point of transfer beat? if you, you know, what i'm saying is that we must also, as the question of why you cree feels, then we need to seek protection from missile against russia. thus a legitimate course thing to switch gears a little bit. i, i sort of bring in african experience here as well,

because separate south africa is no stranger to you, the use of force and violence for political reasons. and i'm sure you're well aware that, that the person who is a justly celebrated as the father of, of your nation nelson mandela, was once on the years terrorist list to, for precisely what we would now recognize as deliberation. struggle. i, i think most people of goodwill, if not all people have with will absolutely despise the use of force, the use of violence for political purposes, but in the world that will leave in the world as we know it today. cool, dan, before we excluded, especially with the self proclaimed the leader of this world using force military force so liberally. are there any other ways for the countries to ensure the interest as an altitude measure? i'm not saying that this has to be, you know, an issue of 1st resort,

but if push comes to shove, isn't that what? south africa and most countries around the world, montana and military force for? yes, absolutely. and that's why it's not africa speaking, the position of the research looking to dialogue and looking at the actually we'll so i mean if you a problem. in fact, in the trying to see that was saw him in many african countries, stuff in the u. s. curative. working much and day eagle, which many scholars are going to see, asked, leaning towards the russia. and one of the things that i was jolted the with apple piece nicholas of africa, that the cold war and is, is, is, is the fact that, you know, people, i seen that as the fall of negation of the, you were you african munoz. it'll principal of the invite ability of, of territorial border to try and critique the resource to peaceful means and add to total resolve coffee. and so people have said that africa neutrality didn't

try to so from africa state doing that food was in, we all, filed late scene is one principles of, of new tried to feature. but i've been sort of before resolution of coffee. both of africa has been very strong. in in been seni, that he'd seen, you know, before, as a ways to result is complete and using what, let's route it is c as quick as possible. and i think that that's a very good point and stand on because the principles of the african union itself. and i've also seen you write that this conflict as tragic and adelaide is it may lead, may also for the international system in too much delayed reforms. and in fact, this is an atrocity that you mentioned of the african countries in many other countries that refused to subject themselves to sometimes very have american prussia and sometimes outright blackmail by the american officials. isn't that also

a sign or a slight change that you know, other countries in a known super powers? i know demanding something from going on. going big guys, but actually recognizing our own importance and the importance of taking your stands and the importance of pursuing that all the interests, d, d, the, like i said, is the silver lining in this conflict in the similar civil lining is, is for forming the chords and national state where as we have it, because you know, it's not, it's not going to sustain assets, it's quarterly. and i, you know, we, melissa, god knows that every country of course has its interest. but when the corporate 19 pantone, for example, was sure that the ward, if you know into the 10 days we are committed in bidding we and be kind of philosophy foreign policy philosophy of proposal that air which, which, which, which is that african foreign policy is beautiful is the connectivity of, of,

of call of humanity. so if we go, we talk about these individual national interests. well, most of us will be actually what i need. it grew, my interests are, what is the interest on every book? every, every state is important. if there's any africa with this book initial and it's resources, i'm most should have a seat in the civil indeterminate. what are nobody interested is going to be also in big decision making and force mental or at least to go back to some national. and i think you would agree with me that the formulation of this global agenda also presupposes, you know, they realization of the spirit of a moon philadelphia talking about it presupposes that countries are regardless of their size or power a, treat each other as moral equals and i've heard that a law dog from african thinkers and african leaders suggesting that for example, the united states needs to change its approach to africa and it needs to treat africans fairly with dignity as equal partners rather than somebody who oh,

needs to be told what to do or needs to be wasted into serving the american understanding of the bilateral relationship. my question to you as somebody who studies in the united states professionally and over time, do you think the years bureaucracy is philosophically ontologically capable of tuning any one as equal and one dad than me and that they will have to part ways in this very attractive with ultimately supremacist idea of the shining cd on a hill that have to bestow it slide on all of us the rest of us and enlighten. well, m m, look dear, you're in to sher miss changing air right now. and it, you know, one of the things that interest me, india, new, or africa policy. and is the notion old, it to seen an a, dealing with africa equal populace. that's something that the wine does it mean because it's a beautiful phrase, but one doesn't mean in practice equal our nurse for me dispatching point is, is,

is having that freeze. and i, that phrase is, is, is, is cindy doco, maybe it's his ground for africa toward the latest. these 2 are codes in terms of given that freeze it leaving mini saw in terms of her. you know, if i recall glazing africa is c, as in terms of eulu mergers given it bought a lot in africa to take part in discourse shows that it's, i mean, it's interest there determining its futile rights at you. you're talking about allowing somebody to even take part in the discussions now they've been following their decisions that i'll follow from them discussion. but simply, you know, having a seat in the table, isn't that a little bit too modest to ask for? when it is void is board, we don't do we as africa have the out as structures, the least will actually be useful. lini off off of your porcine t at present it. it'll go, for example,

am i routine piece recently about why it is important for africa will still be denied as fees as well. and this is what we're doing at our center. we are trying to understand the latest is as a mission and as a society merge us is quality's book into alternative causal sheets, canals, which reclamation is icon on the company's called conway, shows heat africa. what i'm seeing that we need to repeat kids said sounds like might a cause. the exact words nits would open. we come, never looked, it's simply for dealing with the latest. he said out can have an africa u. s. policy rather than the u. s. africa points or professors, he thought he says, this is a great idea, but an o, for example, in russian china m many of such center as they know the united states pretty wealth . but i think the difference between their approach in the african approach is that they not only formulate our policy, but they had tried to stand their ground and defend their interest. and here now to think dotson will hang that at all when push comes to child. when they're interest they involve, they're not ready. i mean, they're rhetorically,

they are always ready to treat you as an equal partner. but when it comes to their interest, they hardly ever compromise. my last question to you is, do you think the united states practically is capable of treating any one, any peer, let's say russia, china, the european union, or let's say it, india, or south africa as a practical equal, as somebody who's interest need to be not only talked about, but respected security, interest, economic interest, human interests, et cetera. well, look in it, a, b, b by smile aside, is that it is capital over dorinda. the letter steve does not, even though it is, is super power does not have the capability. okay, to put is the, it's how war is shaney given because of new force of concrete, new colorful. so insecurity you on this churchy. that is there. we're looking all of at what he let us. this also has his own weaknesses. we been itself. all right, absolutely. he does not pretend any more to be des training. a ballpark develops tit it recognizes that it needs alex. i've list is not going to bump loosely sweet

by by, by, by force or threat will force, as sits east into before. and for me am, is starting point, like i said, would be testy, he scored quantity chores, africa. and i think that is only fair to give them tie to see how that plays up. if he may yell to from mouth, we're able to see down and look at the people on the scene. turtle community showed us when he promised that i'd be made to african lead us in the western term. the u . s. at sir u. s. africa, you'd esl me that heading west until he december. we would do it personal to him of all of these. i been outside that was stone wall sally air, but for now he fired that there is a busy wolf made as he she's to, was recalled, lies in africa, be jesse, for example, as equal partners would see how that rule shall woods to actual ident judge. we have to live in there. i really appreciate your time today with us. thank you. thank you for having. and thanks for watching hope to searing down on the wells

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ah ah, that is my number 7 over there. in the distance about the kilometer, and the ha, that is the last stronghold or the loss handhold, gradient home, followed by the russian private military group. wagner, advance is further along the dumbbells front lines including securing this strategically important ton of solids. our, our correspondent is given access to the company also ahead this, our new and their stuff from united states is created a coalition, and it's using ukraine to wage a proxy war against russia. but the old aim of finding, solving the russia question, moscow's foreign minister is.