violence 20 to 30 years ago. ah, i think there's no question that kitchen cripps from ballet came up here and see it in this area. all my friends is either in prison now for ever or day. probably because got you 7 years with this warning, toil ah, [000:00:00;00] with me.

hello and welcome to wells apart. more than a century since we're g. r. kipling extolled the white man's burden and acquainted colonization to a civilizing effort. the skin color of it's more than appearance and may have been diluted, but the ethos is still more or less the same. the west still sees itself as the shining city on a hill who has values, practices, and interests he to be bestowed on those living at the foot of that hill. for all the talk about equality can the so called international community ever part waste with the idea that some nations know what's best for the rest. will to discuss that i'm now joined by chris, is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professor seekins. great. you talk to thank you very much for your time. would be or thank you for having me show. now, the wetmans burden is such an easy issue. and so i think very easy to fall into

propaganda here. and this is exactly what moscow has been accused off when the russian president suggests said that western had gemini, is a new form of colonialism. you will ara more than 12000 kilometers away from wall screen pictorial. and yet, i've seen you make, not an exact, but the somewhat similar point you said that the russian war in the ukraine is a product of the racist international system. what do you mean by that? look for it. it's their assistant physician assistant as you go back to its origin, in terms of, you know, the more there, the sustain it was. we got treated that it could give the systems as we load it, bad and dad's. and the idea, you know, behind him will be due to the suspect and that's the formation of the system. space

system was based on a received on quality of, of being c. no, would you rope yes, as, as the same as, as be deserving of human rights. and privileges that go, you know, we such rights are surrounded by european enlightenment, eat on the order, and you know, non western, as we're talking about africa, talking about our issue as caribbean people's lives in the very cause. and he will just laugh at some point and where he got it as the non b san who did not speak to enjoy, you know, the privilege of the benefits and rights. and that's the international system. so to see a pretty is back and western europe by the time as well, you know, keep doing school, still another patriot. we enjoyed it. and for me, and this is high view, you know, the different approaches in order to similar country say, well,

as we see in the united new shows, i approached to the general side, you know, one day later and 4 spots. think 20 was there's moving yellow was in the soak, you know, and the united initials responding differently as you know. so, so that's what i mean by that races, international sister. and as you will see, risk control, the job being by says non b b 11 side as being sunday. oh das is not. can i ask you here? where do you think the russians fall within this spectrum of being beings where it says known beings? because in the one hand, we are white and we for a long time to believe that we are part of the western civilization. but historically, for many centuries, it's pretty clear that the rest, the, the rest of the west considered as, as will sort of semi barbarians if not full time barbarians. well, like i said, it was the west versus the wrists. and, and im, however, you wanna look at a book out for me if you asked me directly, bowen to speak honestly. well, oh,

i am looking tensile, we couldn't yog itself, power, russia falls, m a well, we being that prison off of, of, of, of one of the powerful steeds sam, that's, that's, that's, that, that's in some ways is equal. and isaac, a grocer doesn't have b, o calia by d d nafrica. and this is all of the air of photos that dr. nancy whist, since he means in our friend by russia has always supported the liberation struggle not only for political reasons, but also for, you know, spiritual and ideological reasons, because it truly believed that there, you know, it, it come from a different understanding of how you deal with diversity. yeah, i agree, and that's why i said russia doesn't have that by did you africa, where he doesn't mean that russia does not have equivalent out by d intensified as 3. it said we did snable as a story cut. now up, there is an am asking about this is because it, if i understood your thesis correctly and the,

let me know why i was wrong here. you believe that the in inequality of the enter it on bissonnet national system rests primarily within the un security council. and it's we the powers which according to you permit some countries to become rich and powerful and preserved that privilege on and back of exploiting others. and i think that i currently describes the western approach to the world over a couple of centuries. but is it equally true about russia and china? because i do believe that these 2 countries have, who are also you and security council members and who used to be the powers. they have a so indifferent approach to how they deal with other nations, big and small. yeah, they do have a different approach, but the dp result is the same for the for, for be in countries of less a part that the package that lives they could talk about. china, for example, and eat me use a different life,

is by the end of the p and. and if africa as foreign policy is to be controlled or impacted by an or a china, as economy and dealings with the consummate. then at the end of the be it is about control is about power. alternately, this gain is about pon, this is where i am as old toy the lies between black and white, a west and east or not because to be blurred because i that's about stable where powerful countries cease color the call quo races and doesn't, doesn't county races only because an instrument watching that power, so it's nearly if you will, if it's about, if you look at it from the power point of view from the community of park when of you day. and we can begin to use that. there's tool in federal gate chain. i use that last time, arrow shop. and i cities because these 3 countries, the united states, raso, china, i the biggest as pop our competitors in africa,

courtland best way into africa. but professor, if again i, i think it was one of the aimed in liberation, the heroes who said that power is not given. it's taken. and you may put the on us on the great powers, but it isn't also within the recipients of their policy is to, you know, ask for more dignified and warfare treatment. i mean, doesn't really make sense to blame russia, china with the united states for that matter. if in the countries ready to stay in a somewhat passive position, no, i agree with you quickly. it doesn't make sense for plain data, and that's why i don't do the plain gate actually like to buy, want to talk about earth was way create. i don't, i don't want to talk about was to be in between russia and us because that's where the real issue and the career that it's not useful to be. and this is why i'm

seeing that and it's, it's, it's a pizza. it's a shame that despite africa, as you know, fast oil resources, africa depends on, on russia, you know, as far as the r e b for boy, it, despite its arable land, agricultural land for us, the courts in it, it still is to be biggest in puerto well, if we from, from, from, from russia and craig, this is, this is, this is, this is a separable. so if i forgot, does a put your house in order organize. it says it's kelly, even starting with d and d, d v d harvested systems that it inherited from truck. when on the on this, if he doesn't sit down or put us together, it will not be for story. when we, it will not be her dad. any kind of present or power, everybody's hurting it. i'm not seeing therefore, that you will not have to take that by by force. you have to take that part by august. me was there for monday so that you can,

in the respect of the international system that we have been on big for case of aids. i want to go back to something you wrote. and you said that the in this unequal international system, when the un security council, at its center at the system, allows powerful countries to break international law. without any consequence, be russia, ukraine, or the united states in iraq. see really been in a very long list of other countries. is it really fair? and just to put the russia and the united states on the same world food here, because russia is not fighting on the other side of the globe for some corporate interest. this is a very direct, very immediate, very visceral struggle for us. and we see that as a struggle for our own independence, not for the ukrainian land, not against the ukrainian people, but against the western efforts to militarize our neighbor. and to turn it into

a hostile state against us. is it fair to equip russia and america here? well, and it's a school clerk. it's a matter of firm you know you if your world trickled in pencil bonnie sandra, raising which again, tensile scene. and perhaps a young despite a glove, went united states house arsenal and defied. it's a national order or a more derucia heart. what am elizabeth comparisons? it's about vital interest. united states hasn't fought on its territory. we are fighting on her, on our border and i, in the territory that historically not only belong to the, the, the russian le land, but also host russian. people hold where that's one way to look at. see, and what, another way to look at. it also tensile well, put russia in that category is woodrow studies, syria, okay. and that stuff was notate direct sam at all and one didn't do in syria. it protected the state structures against her,

the terrorist all flawed. did it well in the terrorist onslaught? did to why do you defy a terrors? who need to cancel? who's the finance errors trail i i yeah, i warn you what, i'm the most people who use indiscriminate violence and i was in syria back in 2012, 2013. and i've seen the corpses of, you know, 5 year old children who were killed because the, you know, over their parents, sir. cit, the ed religious or ethnic background, or because their parents worked to the government. and i don't think there is much room for argument here. sure. there were some a civil rights organizations there, but they didn't carry weapons. well, look for me. one month's answer is to set a demo's for adult fights. actually depends on we start with where way in looking at it from and i was so burned at it by looking knox and, and d e. b role of p y greg be in, in, in the sale of africa. and which in, in, in, in many ways. so of course the webinar group is the private nisha and what as be a central aft closed links we, dic, russian governments,

it. and just yesterday i saw the head of the group and in o contesting full who was doing this i between the russian army and, and get itself in, in, in, in recovery and russian ground in, in, in parts of eastern creek. so, so for me and of course i grew with you deck and there's on his extension. traits will close down the case of russia aggression he in in you cray. and what one could also push back a seed at an am and is it, it's, yeah, is, is, is russia is, is, is, is, is this war in ukraine really about an anesthesia traits. so rush out. org. i'm url, shes old leather mc, put his need full recognition ab at, in an international to stem wait, he wants to get us as big if still influence as ice the rush as the u. s. s. r e lab during the cold war era, the professor is he can we have to take

a very short break, but let's keep that that last question in mind, and we will return to it just after a few moments statement. ah hi. ah gracious, which a form of a tens of thousands of years can give us important information into our climate and how it has changed over time. what a scary is our glaciers are melting, added alarming rate to learn more. we came here to mount elbows to speak to victor pucker. he has a greasy ologist who is devoted his entire life to the topic. it is a fascinating at times dangerous and very important job. mm hm.

mm. welcome back to wells appointment crease is seeking director of the african center for the study of the united states at the university of pretoria professors and can just before their break regarding the issue of what are rushes. a lot of evidence multis in russia say incursion, military incursions into your crime. and you suggested that it's a, his search for recognition. don't you think that i there were plenty of other ways that the westwood ground level i didn't know, put enough recognition or of anything i if he actually told them merican line. well, i don't think that if you look at american politics, i don't think that in the president and in not even especially the last one before, but by and had deal. that's 60 ok till i tried. the

book roshay, the i or star total to rush on issues midway. what do you know? one i but if we look at the american budgetary expenses in the scale of military and sending weapons, sending trainers, military trainers to your screen, it's all public record. and, you know, in the counters and billions trying to defend what us up don't need to. and so trying to encourage and have you create one of the things that we have not talked about, you know, my view about this particular course in terms of looking at where it was the responsible for the career crisis is the wheel of the ukrainian people themselves. right, and the you pretty crazy people even into not words a good the lie. and i was told by the president, the president that was will by women, the electorate, by over 73 percent of the literary is they did not like the lighting was teen about it all in securing you. chris suddenly,

for russia is he shall the way you consider rochester story cut and try critical off off of in v d u creat picks him by to the 1700. right, well wait a 2nd. i know that we're all fresh and she sort of go record of invading your green . in fact, the ukrainian territory has grown substantially or during solely at times. but i also want to add that the mandate of prisons. alaska was in part secured on his promise, not of not only giving autonomy to ukraine. russia was never questioning the sovereignty of ukraine, but he also promised peace with the eastern regions which were shalt, for a 7 consecutive years by, by the ukrainian military. i'm in, ah, let's be accurate on the historic for historical front here. mercury. and on sunday, you daddy, 1st in visual golf. o. few cree by russia was, is 17. 83. what,

what do you to find as an invasion then? one, you visual isn't visual where you are. next. when you visited courtroom, your forces on price on next, the big needed estates. and if you look at it, you should like back us on the form of derek. cornel user, you know, but that's not quite i'll be, we'll try to big i. so the point of chance will be, if you, you know, what i've seen is that we was also asked the question of why you cree feels didn't need to seek protection, thrown missile against russia. that's a legitimate question to switch gears a little bit. i, i, one i said of bring in african experience here as well because separate south africa is no stranger to the use of force and violence for political reasons. and i'm sure you're well aware that the, the person who is a justly celebrated as the father of your nation, nelson mandela, was once on the years terrorist list to,

for precisely what we would now recognize as deliberation. struggle. i, i think most people of goodwill, if not all people of, with, will absolutely despise the use of force, the use of violence for political purposes. but in the world that will leave in the world as we know it today. cool than before we excluded, especially with the self proclaimed the leader of this world using force military force so liberally. are there any other ways for the countries to ensure their interest as an ultimate measure? i'm not saying that this has to be an issue of 1st resort, but if push comes to shove, isn't that what south africa and most countries around their wolf maintained their military force for? yes, absolutely. and that's why said africa speaking, the position of the roof looking to dialogue and looking at around the actually we're solving a problem. in fact, in trying to see that was saw in, in,

in many african countries stand in the u. s. curative working much and day eagle, which many scholars are going to see asked, leaning towards russia. and one of the things that i was jolted the with apple piece nicholas of africa for the cold war. and it is, is, is the fact that, you know, people seen that as the fall of negation of the u. s. u, africa and munoz, the principal of the oil ability of, of territorial border to, to learn to critique the resource to peaceful means and add to total resolve coffee. and so people have said that africa neutrality didn't try to so some africa state doing that food was in, we all, filed late scene is one principles of, of new tried to teach. but i've been sort of before resolution of coffee. both of africa has been very strong. in in been seni, that seats you know before,

as a ways to resolve is complete and using what, let's route it is c as much as possible. and i think that that's a very good point and stand on the course the principles of the african union itself. and i've also seen you right, this conflict as tragic and actually is it may be, it may also for the international system in too much delayed reforms. and in fact, this is an atrocity that you mentioned of the african countries and many other countries that refuse to subject themselves to sometimes very have american push. and sometimes outright blackmail by the american officials. isn't that also a sign or a slight change that you know, other countries in a known super powers? i know demanding something from going on. going big guys, but actually recognizing that own importance and the importance of taking a stance and the importance of pursuing the only interest d. d. the, like i said,

is this the rely need in this conflict in the symbol and civil line is, is for forming the chords and national state where as we'll have it, because, you know, it's not, it's not going to sustain assets, it's quarterly. and i, you know, we, melissa, god knows that every country, of course, how does interest. but when the corporate 19 pound, any for example, was shows that the war east interdependent. we are committed in bidding. we and the colonel philosophy, foreign policy philosophy of the cultural air which, which, which, which is that african foreign policy is beautiful is the connectivity of, of, of all of humanity. so if we go, we talk about these individual national interests. well, most of us will be actually what i need. it grew my interest i. what is the interest on every book? every, every state is important. if there's any africa with this book initial and it's resources, i mostly have a seat in the civil and in determining what are nobody interested is going to be of

course or make the decision making iraq and force mental or at least shows. so government acts international and i think you would agree with me that the formulation of this global agenda also presupposes, you know, they realization of the spirit of a moon philadelphia talking about it presupposes that countries are regardless of their size or power a tree. they chow there as moral equals and i've heard that a lot of from african thinkers and african leaders suggesting that. for example, the united states needs to change its approach to africa. and it needs to treat africans fairly with dignity as equal partners, rather than somebody who oh, needs to be told what to do or needs to be wasted into serving the american understanding of the bilateral relationship. my question to you as somebody who studies in the united states professionally and over time, do you think the years bureaucracy is philosophically ontologically capable of

treating anyone as equal and one dad than me and that they will have to part ways in this very attractive with ultimately supremacist idea of the shining cd on a hill that have to bestow it slide on all of us, the rest of us an enlightened. well, m m, look dear during teacher miss changing air right now and it, you know, one of the things that interest me, india new at africa policy and is the notion of it to seen an a, dealing with africa equal partners. that's something that the, when does it mean because it's a beautiful phrase, but one doesn't mean in practice equal our nurse, when be dispatching point is, is, is having that freeze and at that phrase is, is, is extended document is his ground for africa toward the latest these 2 are codes in terms of giving that phrase it leaving many so in terms of her, you'll eat, erica, glazing africa agency,

or in terms of you little more just giving you bought a loan africa to take part in discourse shows that it's, i mean it's interest there, determining its future rights at you, you're talking about allowing somebody to even take part in the discussions now they've been following their decisions that i'll follow from them discussion, but simply, you know, having a seat in the table, isn't that a little bit too modest? to ask for when it is void is board, we don't do we as africa have the out a stretch shows the least will actually be useful. many off off of the opportunity at present it. you know, for example, am i rooted piece recently about why it is equal to and for africa will study the united states as well. and this is wardweb dinner at our center. we are trying to understand the latest these as in mission. and as a society brought us is quality's book into targets and conceal sheets canals. which reclamation is icon on the company's called conway shows. he'd africa. what

i've seen that we need to repeat kids said does like, might a cause the exact words in it so that we can develop the template for dealing with the latest isabel can have an africa u. s. policy rather than u. s. africa points or professors, he thought he says, this is a great idea, but an o, for example, in russian china m many of such center as they know the united states pretty wealth . but i think the difference between their approach in the african approach is that they not only formulate their policy, but they had tried to stand their ground and defend their interest. and the united thing darvin will hang that at all when push comes to child, when they're interest they involve, they're not ready. i mean, they're rhetorically, they're always ready to treat you as an equal partner. but when it comes to their interest, they hardly ever compromise. my last question to you is, do you think the united states practically is capable of treating any one? any peer? let's say russia, china, the european union, or let's say it, india, or south africa as a practical, equal,

as somebody who's interest need to be not only talked about, but respected security, interest, economic interest, human interests, et cetera. well, looked in at a b, b by smiler side is that it is capital oak dorinda. the letter steve does not even do it. is, is super power does not have the capability. okay, to put is the entire war. is shaney given because of new force of concrete, new colorful. so insecurity. he went, his churchy. that is there. we're looking all of at what he let us. this also has his own weaknesses. we been itself, or i'd, absolute, he does not pretend any more to be des training. a ballpark develops tit it recognizes that it needs alex. i've let's, his mud glenfield bamboozled. it's we, by a, by, by a, by force or threat will force as sits east into before. and for me am is starting for like i said would be testy. he scored quantity chores, africa. and i think that is only fair to give them sigh to see how that plays up. if he may yell to and from out we're able to see down and look at people on the

scene. turtle community showed us when he promised that i'd be made to africa, lead us in the western term, u. s. at sir u. s. africa, you'd esl me, that heading west until he december. we would do it personal to him. of all of these i been outside that was stone wall sally air, but for now defied that there is a busy wolf made as he she's to, was recalled, lies in africa. be jesse, for example, as equal partners would see how that rule shall woods to actual ident judge. we have to live in there, i really appreciate your time today with us. thank you. thank you for having me and

thank you for watching hope to searing again on the wells apart. ah ah, with oh, is your media a reflection of reality? ah, in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation, whole community. are you going the right way?

where are you being led to somewhere? which direction? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, we all came out together. we were all supposed to go home together. i didn't happen. we all went to the movies and we get to the corner of 15th and ridgewood and there's another car just sitting when you are cheating you