how it has changed over time? what a scary is our glaciers are melting at an alarming rate to learn more. we came here to help us to speak to victor pop open. here's a gracie ologist whose devoted his entire life to the topic. it is a fascinating, at times dangerous, and very important job with welcome to wells apart, united, we stand, divide. if we fall. these ethos 1st articulated by a sub has been central to the evolution of the western world view. having been

involved in context as diverse as the bible sermons and politicians species. and while the west still sides unity as the backdrop of its international policy. brazil, russia, india, china, and south africa has started to explore a different approach to unity. the one that does not require the sameness of values or uniformity of action can the will be reunited through divisions or to discuss that i'm not joined from pretoria by mika keystroke by a research fellow at institute for african thought and conversation mythical minds . great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you so much. if i do have also a associated with your niece and i'm sure that expands your expertise and that's why this conversation will be even more substantive. now i know that both of these installations explore your academic interest and breaks.

and as i suggested in my introduction, the countries that make on this group as well as those that are interested in joining it, have very different national identities. they have different forms of governance, they have different value systems. and yet somehow this group keeps arising in prominence. despite all those differences, divisions, distinctions, what have you, given breaks, lack of insistence on unity. what keeps it together. there's a problem, a governance and financial like it now a, a, a,

a, and they're all each, each one of them. in 2 days, they all know then maybe how people are you know, it's not so much an issue of these kind of what a bit of what you know it's more potential connective like minded wonder. and you'll also learn a lot of the biggest

challenge with that. then you're not that big to get you mentioned the origin story and i think, i think it's pretty remarkable because as far as i know, the 1st time this breaks metaphor, this breaks a traditional was coined, it was actually proposed by a goldman sachs trader who essentially proposed that as a marketing ploy to sell the shares of developing countries and slowly but surely, it then evolved into a viable organization 1st by regular to regular meetings of foreign ministers of those countries and down through the summits of have the state. so essentially it was something that came out of our western financial system and he had a volved into a distinct north western grouping. what do you think allowed for that movement to

happen? i would you do know that big? no, it does not come from the gym when they came together. i remember that there in the, in triple that because i've been in and so no, no, no, no, and the expectations for know in the next one will when they, when they run up or the same time. but the jim being false. so came to know the brakes around the 2008 financial type. now know that jim or need to get on, you know,

some issues about mistakes. i made a mistake. they picked in order and you know, we had a big, big speaking, you know, in like you know. ready who may just say she believes that for development agenda and they came to get near being because a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, no, no, no, no, it's a walk around the world when missing by let's

just explore this piece is because i, you know, you frame it is coming together of people from the entire world, but the world, if we are on as has been divided into various tiers over the last couple of decades . and certainly if you look at the global financial infrastructure, which i know is one of your interests, you know, it aspires to be global in its reach, but it's highly centralized in terms of accumulating power and accumulating benefits. and no one could argue that one of the reasons why brick bricks came about and. 6 1 of the reasons why we have so many tensions and imbalances into was because some of the western countries have known the entire western block insisted on keeping its privileges. i'm. 9 only to sell it speaks about the, you know, serving the interests of humanity. but if we actually look at the way the global

financial infrastructure is, is designed it privileges one camp and not so much and the other. do you think this is something that is natural in just happened historically, or do you think it was designed that way? specifically to encourage the development of song and hamper in the development of others a different if you look at dimension a by any meanwhile. ready from anywhere near to the ambush and of finance, financial technologies. and so please call me, let me know one that you

have something know that many developing economies do not have time to get it connected. we can do something to influence the situation a system or the system or a. busy or just a, you know, a fight all the time. it is a, is a, not a way to

try a new, a new we need to get a, you know, much less including the, if i mention it, if i may add something and let me know if you disagree with that. i think that sort of drive has intensified with the stars of the russian operation in ukraine and the introduction of various whipping financial sanctions and trade sanctions against russia, which came to her not only this country but also many other countries. and i've heard many analysts suggest that with countries like argentina, egypt, saudi arabia, iran, expressing the intention to join brakes is truly becoming a platform that explores and tasks, ways of doing business sort of circumventing the western financial institutions and in the streams that. a come attachment,

relying on those western financial institutions. do you agree with that and do you think that they're still then is to do business in the world? second granting they've asked on countries joining is becoming it is popular. why? why then what is i think and how you doing buddy? business shed and agreed there is no one power get in there but but in the single country you decide it does not like a particular position. then you should double digit. so when you're on that the video i take, you know, development agenda know comes in the well. so no region in the world,

one for the main away it was a 100 years in the world was investment for people in the region in the world. one, i said no to finance, nor to invest in research and development. and i took it to building the technology, the finances. but nobody does not think what you know, we need to say kind of been this why we need to say comes in if they still know from the lens, no, it seeks to meet you and a total of them management. oh, my mystical, my, i have to stop before in just a 2nd because we need to take a very short break, but he will return to that subject. in a few minutes, they can,

ah ha ah . according to french president emanuel macro, the company must decide whether it wants to be free, or a vassal of china or the united states, but grown has never been known to be an original thinker. however, on this point,

he is obviously right. the real question is whether it's europe still has the power to decide its fate at all. ah ah, the me the welcome back to was a part with make the case of go by

a research paula institute for penn african thought and conversation that took my before the break. you mentioned this strong drive by developing economies to industrialize faster and in a more varied way to ensure a safe guards against external shocks be depend, downing the war sanctions. what have you, is it only about faster and more secure growth for you or isn't it also about national falsehoods? sort of literally the rise to develop, but those are the right to develop in your own way to want to be abroad of progress at your own pace in your own gay. quite often we'd like to agent or buy your, your own country into one

way. so you can let joe know 5 countries differ is different. so the nation has been in this country. so you would want to live you meant by that is a big difference in terms of investment needed for your individual country. so each country has so essentially feeds in a

determined by the mystical by this is exactly what the concept of sovereignty refers to, you know, in doing things and aspiring to 2nd goals. but in your own way, sort of do, we all come from different parts of the world and it can be argued that we all appreciate similar things, but we axes down differently. and i wonder if i have given any thought to how various countries can set up cultivate these appreciation of local conditions in their own population. because sure, we all want to achieve certain pragmatic things are living standards. but we also and deal with very significant soft power influence of the west, which comes with, you know, pushing its own values. all narratives are own interest on the other populations. and it's very easy to succumb to this temptation that you know,

are the nation's way of doing things is more attractive than yours that you know, grass is always greener and the other side. have you thought about how to sort of cultivate this appreciation of rational ways in people, or some developments or continent a one in a a condition. this is what we do with the chinese facing challenges and development programs in the beginning. one on one channel. we

think on the african union is what a position on, on the agree with you on it by the applicant function and just say that then one should you know on, you know, why did one on the other hand has been up all the interventions they've made all development thing given you know, some of those on fine and under conditions 0 . i did you know or minimal?

yeah, no conditionality so that you do not conscious i need to make sure that it is viable. make sure that the project people but it's been too. ready not to tell me in this one way. why not? that is what, let's just say that we have to look at the different types of what they got your engagement. that is why you're right now it's non interference, you know, in 10 and by honest. but we do have a responsibility as many as we're development. and what does that one call now? what does it mean that was fluent for know and i,

but it may sound under development for that just be well pick it up. if we, if i can ask here somewhat, so suffolk, a question, but i'm a big fan of, i can tackle psychology and i think fairness is, has an archetypal appeal or meaning that regardless of cultural differences, people have an innate sense of balance of given take and even though many western countries, the most african countries see themselves as a gibberish, i sense from my, travels around the world and from my conversations with people around the world that at least in part of this resistance associated with western. well, you asked to do something these with this somewhat boy attitude towards the rest of the world that you know, many african countries have practiced not only over and they can but over centuries . what do you think about and do you think the west historically has given as much

back as it has taken from the rest of the world? a to the people where it operates in countries where it operates. it a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,

a, a, a, a, a come to the point and then also with condition that we bring, we give money, but our company will be the ones that provide product. so in the end, why does it benefit to place in the target? and so, and so it's, so i'm not too sure you know what given big by there was to africa actually been recently attended your conference of that she doing things right. i mean, this is much african think think your opinion, think thing where you were

development in a different way. we need to give up and why we should have been doing things in the wake and in fact they've been challenges. and so after that, you know, in the next fight it was, you know, what i mean with them for, you know, that if it is not so essentially what you're suggesting is that an authentic philosophy of when, when de dia, that if you actually mistreat your neighbor it will come back and hurt you and i think this is what you mentioned, those western economists, but it's. * well known, the africa, you bulge could be an opportunity, but it could also be a major risk and not only to european economies if the migration is on control,

but pretty much to the rest of the world. because everybody in the world, once a dignified life and the once you know good prospects in life can i ask you are very, very fast because they only caused by a less than a minute. but you wrote a lot about this youth bulge, and that it could actually be turned into a huge benefit. you know, something that could allow africa to have faster than average growth rates on what i, you know, some of the things that you think needs to be done to allow for that conversion to happen. rather than i, you know, this youth bulge being a major security risk, turning it into a real, your benefit. i think a finance for what you need inside educate need in for us to move people around, you know, for the 2nd issue is investors. i mean,

investment now you have a young population in the middle of that if you take that given and it's growing, i mean if you end up in the 7 year population of the jobs that will need the vision of your mission. one of the, one of the people pushing against the robot by jim charles and demick order and then to mentally young people in which we educated to do their work. but they, they need,

they need that so. so the area is when you're in intervention in the lab there, when i say choose everything, everything is and so on and young people. and that takes $1.00 to $2.00 agents. you're not given that engine to get about 4 years to come by. we have to live in there. we are out of time, but i'm really grateful for for this conversation. thank you very much. thank you so much. oh, soon and thank her for while she hoped to see her again. unwell to part. ah, with

me. ah. ah. the claims of the king of the belgians leopold the 2nd to the congo were finally authorized by the leading european countries in 18. 85 in the very heart of the african continent. a state under the rule of the belgian monarch was declared since the beginning, the congo free state was total, may him for the local population and functioned as a universal concentration camp. the majority of the population,

including women and children, were forced to work on the rubber plantations. those who failed to fulfill their quota were beaten and mutilated. to keep the congolese people under control, the king set up the so called for spook leak, which were punitive detachments that cast terror on the captured country and its inhabitants. fearing that their subordinates would simply waste bullets hunting for wild animals, the officers demanded that the soldiers gave an answer for every bullet used. and as proof presented a job hand of an african. it was not uncommon when trying to justify the use of the ammunition, the colonist amputated the hands of not only those who were dead, but also of those who were kept alive. the ferocious exploitation of the congo turned into a real genocide in only 20 years. the policy of the belgians led to the death of nearly 10000000 people alongside the holocaust. that genocide of the congo

population is considered to be one of the grimmest pages in the history of mankind . blue children at saint a residential school suffered nightmarish levels of abuse, torture and child rape. and yet the office of the attorney general suppressed thousands of page the police and evidence that identified the perpetrators in the school. i was electrocuted twice. i was only 7 years ago. was too high for me. so somebody put me in the chair by the law warriors to run over here, be somebody and run here and she kept solution with himself. some of them are my relative, didn't make it jerking themselves to death over doses. but yeah, it made me make me the person i am today.