out frontal sam and his rules based order is no longer a question of it. but when the clock strikes midnight. thank the company here. we're not in tonight. so with the news. hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . if you've only followed the pronouncement from the so called analysis from western governments and they're plying media, then you know very little about the conflict in ukraine. the fact is, ukraine is losing. on this edition of cross talk,

we discuss how this conflict is likely to end me cross talking the end game, i'm joined by my guest, jo loria in alexandria. he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com in washington. we have john carry out who he is, a former cia officer, and in paris we cross the show, rick mall. he is a political commentator or a gentleman, cross talk roles. and in fact, that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. well, i'll go to jo personnel exam, andrea there's not much debate in western media and west in the public sphere in general about the conflict and ukraine, which is a real pity because at the end of the day, it is at the expense of the ukrainians. actually, but because there is no trust left, we have admissions from merkel parish and co. and along that they never dealt in good faith with the russians. and i'm obviously making reference to the minced

process. so, negotiations at this point are not really in the cards, and i really don't see how in a normative sense negotiations we played out. this is going to be done unilaterally one way or another. jo. yeah, unfortunately, you're probably right. let's establish that this war should never happened because as you said, they, when they were not serious about the midst. of course, they were deceiving russia to set up to train nato, to train ukraine for the war that they wanted, that they needed it. start in 2014 with a cool you. nobody in the west knows that a very few people. there's no debate, there's no discussion is known historical context. there's no understanding of what means because there's no understanding that nato was all and the u. s. what were offered trading proposals, december of 2021 by russia to create a security architecture that would include bushes, security interests, all of that was ignored by the west because they wanted this war and they got it. and they have no intention to actually write of negotiating this. they are

admitting that russia is winning the war that ukraine is losing, even though it's very difficult to know exactly what's going on on the ground by the very fact that they want to send more more r i mentioned in these german tanks, which is the big issue being discussed, so i'm afraid that there are various scenarios and we don't really know. of course, it's impossible to know when and how this war will end. but the scenarios would be the destruction of the ukrainian military. the, the russia could seize all of the to start russian lands over and ukraine. they could have to take care of perhaps in order to finish d, not suffocation. although i don't see battling for key of in the streets, if you have to take over the capital, but some engineering of it could, it may be possible that may end the war ultimately to the west wants to keep bleeding russia to get back to their ultimate aim, which was to overthrow the russian government weaken it with the economic war,

but to sac with the information more of what the proxy will all of which a felon i must say. ok, john, it go to john in washington. you know, one of the discursive, lee, if you've looked at the how this narrative has been constructed. and joe did a wonderful job of introducing it here. the problem with negotiations, as people call it in the west, is that towards what end to see. i would like to see peace, how do we achieve peace? but the problem is nato washington london, kevin warsaw. because those are the major bar capitals in this. they want victory. now see victory and peace. you know, they're 2 very different things. and if you want victory, well you're playing, you're all you're playing with that with the ultimate weapon that could possibly used in a conflict. but if you want peace, that's a very different story. but that's it. that's not attract. they want to take, john, i think that's exactly right peter. and you know that the american government has,

has not prepared the american people or the american congress for peace. they've only talked about victory and you're right, there are 2 very vastly different things. you know, here in the, in the us, in the mainstream media, we see only news about how well ukraine is doing. we see reports with headline saying russia is losing that, that's a disservice to both the american people and to the ukrainian people. nobody's prepared for either a long term battle or for peace, which as you note correctly is, is very, very different from, from victory. it shows that you know it because of the way the narrative is constructed here. europe is taking the brunt of this, at least economically. we may even see social and political unrest as a result here. because you have characters like the head of nato. stilton burges,

if, if ukraine is defeated than the west is defeated, but i thought that the west wasn't involved in this war. they can even keep their narrative straight here. and, and what it does is, is that i can guarantee you, and i only get expressing my personal opinion. russia will not lose this conflict under no circumstances under no conditions. it will not lose that. what, losing and winning can be up in the eyes of the beholder. let's put it that way. but from the russian perspective, they're not going to lose this. i don't think europe was prepared for that. the decision makers for the preparing for this war, they weren't prepared for that. russia were supposed to buckle in a matter of days. the rubel was going to go to trash and it would be all over. but it's, it hasn't. and it won't happen. john, go ahead in paris. i am great gun rings, a push. i will not lose little ghost. ukraine is losing, but it's not collapsing yet, at least. is he the 100 move but love not very fast. i mean good. that the german line in 1918. they still, molly, the trenches war,

so i don't know what's going to happen. i mean, the west pause more, but more and more weapons there. and i was going to happen, but i'm worried about the intensification of the country. now estonia is speaking of blocking the go for finland. if they do that is an act of war yet. but of course, if russians he acted that there was easily over her and they stung ellison the problem. but then he, due to another unprovoked digression, again to nato member, article 5, blah blah, blah. and lord, they're going to duke. and i'm also interested in the internal depression, especially in france, because you may know or not, no, but now they have totally cancelled band artie france, they have kids there. there. so so funding, i mean the, the banks cannot pay them and get money anymore. so that the bank cannot be the company or her worker. so you're a 100 plus a journalist, they're all on the door the same time. and there is a campaign against them. some people say they're, they should be verified,

they have been working for the enemy and sounds of a, i mean the attack on r t, france and just unbelievable. and believe i don't, it is not on believable because they don't believe in free speech anymore. that is something they don't care about. that's it. easy with the grade. 68 newspaper, libya so which dealer surgery a lot 60 they're, they're coming back to right for them. of course, violently anti version editorials. i mean, does joe newspaper was the 1st the most vicious against artie and wanting to bank at ease of really, you know, he in 60, they say is forbidden to forbid the glow. of course it's compulsory to for been there is really amazing. or how did the change of the situation, you know, and then, and then of course, yeah, i mean, after the binding of activities and they just having, of course, been our tv. we see not as influential as he used to be. now says there should be a good type, you know, after the war cry been of course of the election needed. but also for the good of

a does include what kind of commitment my job, the job you're making. my point you let me go back to joe here, tribunals, all of these things are, i mean there's, there's no pretense of trying to find a solution to this conflict here. there is actually, there is one know, go back to december 17th, 2021. that's what russia wanted. it was made public and it was brushed off. those still though, those demands are still there. and that's your starting point. if you want to have negotiations, but i think we're getting the same exact responses we did at this time as we did then, joe didn't want to move. in april, there was an opportunity. there was an opportunity for a negotiation might then, and ukraine would have come out in a lot better shape course. they would have had to agree that crimea dumbass were part of russia and not join nato, but of course, united states, britain would burst. johnson in forefront prevented that negotiation and they will continue to prevent that if bach, mood falls, or when it falls,

that could be an opportunity then to enter negotiation because that is a very symbolic battle going on right now. but i don't think that's going to happen because the west wants this door. busy to continue with the grave danger that it could escalate to the s, the ultimate conflict, and that could be the way the war ends were all dead. and this is why the west is playing with fire right now. they will not accept that. ultimately, they will have to agree to those treaties or some form of that that they will have to accommodate russia, security, interest, like the o. s. he said like the hell thinking records, this is something that even macaroni and shows at least that early on in the conflict, we're making some noise about until america told them to shut up basically. so what is the only way to do it is to get a negotiation. i don't know where the russians interested at this point in a negotiation really don't know exactly what they're all well, and i just like joe, i think i can answer that a little bit. at least my observation, we go to john here. well, why would the russians go into negotiations with anybody in the west?

they're been lied to left, right, and center for years. why would you even contemplate talking to these people? know what's going to happen is political facts on the ground will be made. john, go ahead in washington. yeah, exact. you're exactly repeating. you can't, you can't trust anything that the west says because everything has been a lie. you know, we say this here all the time. the russians have the several different times just in the most recent history of trusted, the west, to be honest in their negotiating points. and they've never been honest. you know, we hear a lot to peter here in the united states about the russians being willing to fight to the last ukraine in. well, i would say that the truth is that it's, it's the americans and nato that are willing to fight to the last ukrainian. we hear in the news every day hear about case rate. all the news over the weekend was about tanks. tanks tanks, tanks aren't going to change the course of this war. the ukrainians can't win this

over the long term. the only way that they could is with direct nato intervention. and that just simply won't happen. in the end, we're going to see the destruction of ukraine. we're going to see the destruction of the ukranian government. and we're going to see the, the movement of the ukranian people out of the country unless they agree to sit down in the russian, just as the russians asked many, many months ago and negotiate a debt. well, you know, all i can say about the, the ridiculous tank conversation, they will, they all mouth the same way gentlemen. they all know the same way or a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the end game, stay with our team. ah, blue

places which are form over tens of thousands of years can give us important information into our climate and how it has changed over time. what a scary is our glaciers are melting added alarming rates to learn more. we came here to help us to speak to victor papa. he has a gracie ologist who has devoted his entire life to the topic. it is a fascinating, at times dangerous, and very important job for children at st in residential school, suffered nightmarish levels of abuse, torture and child rape. and yet the office of the attorney general suppressed thousands of pages of police of evidence that identified the perpetrators in the school. i was electrocuted twice. i was only 7 years or 1st too high for me. so somebody to put me in the chair by the law, i used to run over here, abuse somebody and ran here and she kept solution and wip himself.

some of them are my relative, didn't make it jerking themselves to death, over doses. but yeah, what it made me, it made me the person i am today because i'm afraid i don't give any investigations. were too often handled differently because the deceased was indigenous. so many of the worst criminals got away the bishop's got away. the ones who done most of the damage never got charged ah, welcome back to cross hawk where all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing the in the game with. okay, so let's go back to john then in paris. you know,

if we look at all of the recent controversy and we can go back to russia gate and we can go back to our perceptions of the 2020 election in the united states. we and all the things floating around the, by the ministration right now. and then of course we have ukraine and in it, they all have one thing in common, bad and flawed narratives, create bad outcomes, bad policy outcomes. and we're talking about in this program possible and game negotiations. but if i go to our guest in paris, well, any negotiations with the russians is munich. it's munich every day at munich. ok. how do you get out of that called the sac? because you know, the, it's giving moral justification. teal politics is not about morality. it's not about values, it's about power. ok, but the west will always co mingle, all these other ridiculous things and never really get to the heart of the matter. as i said in the beginning of the program, if you want peace then work through that prism. they refuse to do it because every

day is munich, go ahead. jonathan paris. busy is certainly that in germany, for example, if day is warning again, sending trunks to the king, seeing that the last and it did it, they mean 4145 feet in the end of the he with. and in france, the people who go themselves found a freshly said no, no, because i mean, no, no because of the german bass, they must send a thanks because the new hiccup is of course, put in. i mean, it's completely ridiculous. you know, a long time ago and they come in, they told me that the one with central sheep, if you sensor all your audio hopefulness, then when you make a mistake decision with you to tell you and that's it. what the west is doing now. but basically shutting down all the voices and i gave the example of f t r t was up the whole domain. i have no manager for me after you. there was no, no, they just wanted to get, give a job where giving information like people do on the, on smaller websites. but then of course those people have too big for money and

they don't get paid. and when you were for the same work where you were being paid the difference, but these people are not put in a promotion or for her or do i know that i've known several of them. they will not know when the problem, i mean, i mean if it's not about being pro russia anti russia pro, put, why don't you have a debate about the issues that's all i tried to do on this program. ok, you can just sent all you want. you can tell me anything you want. we barring swearing at me and i don't really care because it's your opinion. let me go to jo. jo in washington alexandria, excuse me. joseph morale, the vaunted e u foreign policy chief. he said something very curious. the last few days he said it west house is war. ukraine, big, but respect, russia because russia defeated napoleon and hitler. so that's why the western support, ukraine. i mean the, the,

the lack of logic and clear thinking from these people is really astounding. i mean, their foreign policy chief doesn't know history very well that makes him, you know, a person to, to, to talk about the entire blocks security future with its neighbor, extraordinary, the lack of merit and competence. these people have jo, you know, sometimes these people that are held up in the media as being the great leaders are not very smart as you just pointed out. the ones who are smart, know exactly what they're doing here. and i think there are smart people. yeah. in you at leadership who know exactly what they're trying to do, this is for the u. s. the opportunity they've wanted ever since. of fulton came to power and yeltsin was gone and they lost control and russian society finances resources. this is what they want to get back again. but we have to understand that the, the leaders themselves may be self deluded. they, they've created a credible psy up, and they may be victims of their own psy up. and that's what is so frightening

about this, that the escalator nature of the u. s. position at the beginning. it was biden who said clearly, no, we're not going to get nato involved. we're going to stop, you won't be able to attack crimea. we're not going to send weapons 2nd reach into russia. this keeps changing. and this is what so worrying right now. so that the ultimate scenario, what could happen would be the, the ultimate end game, which is the end of the world. and i don't know whether this understanding is enough person like an alina bad luck to foreign minister of germany, for example, or even joe biden anymore. i wonder if they would know the fire that they're playing with here. and the only negotiation right now could stop this, although i just could go on for years. and if it goes on for years, and it could lead, as i say, to the absolute greatest nightmare of history. you know, judge, i saw john, i thought john nodded his head there. go ahead. tell me why you're not when joe was speaking. go ahead. well, i had to joe's right. and you know,

i think that the west should pay very close attention to a tweet from former prime minister. meant that if on friday and, and his statement just yesterday or day before, yesterday by the chairman of the duma, russia will not lose this fight period. this is an enormous country, it's a nuclear power. ukraine is an existential. we hear a lot of comparisons here in the united states to the u. s. fights in iraq and afghanistan, there's nothing similar. there's nothing comparable between us in afghanistan and iraq, and russia and ukraine. and it's because ukraine is directly on russia's border. it's an existential threat. and because it's an existential threat, russia cannot and will not lose this fright. i think that's something that the west just simply doesn't understand and appreciate it because they're, they're, they're, they're, they're are blinded by their own ideology about their own moral virtue. it's really bizarre when they're putting the entire fate of humanity. i am based on their per

self perception of their virtue versus versus to the other, meaning the russia or i, because you can go back to burrell the garden and every in the jungle. ok. that's how these people take very the neo colonial and away shown. you know, we're talking unfortunately in some sense apocalyptic lee here. but before we get that, the u. s. pays almost nothing. it's not losing troops. it's making a lot of arm sales left, right, and center. and europe is, is paying the price on almost every single way. i mean, we talk about and, and i, i'm, i, it's true truly saddens me the suffering of ukrainian people because this conflict should have been avoided. it was avoidable. but i, but i love europe just as much, and i just see europe paying the cost you. what, you know with the, the germans, the french now are announcing 40 percent increase in defense spending. yeah. well, you had your welfare state because he didn't have to spend so much on the military

. okay. yeah, that's all going to go away. your civil liberties are under challenge. you been talking about our to you france here. i mean, you know, for all europe supportive of ukraine, what to get for it, what to get? nothing but just nothing internet and nothing but the director, janice declares, has been totally bought. they do united states. that's what the girl was saying. you know, the girl said that the way the americans do they give you a back of whiskey bottle. they send you the seminar in the united states or her dinner varies or something like that. and that's the way the correction goes in. the whole class has been corrupted beyond believe, i am absolutely buffer to see how a case of in peerless master used to say these people have become in their complete lack isn't united states. and so because it's freedom is democracy and so did not inquire about any lack of democracy or freedom in energy states. and i stood, he believed that politicians like shows or maybe my car are not as extreme as they

seem. and there are others theme as the media, but they're constantly under pressure from the media all on the gains in germany. the gains are just unbelievable. they're the most warm, a protein that you have a washout is on. you know, i mean, i don't want to ask anybody their age on this program, but i do remember when the greens were very, very different in the 1980s. again, i will have new special program on that because i don't know what the hell happened to those people here. but let me, let me go to to joe. i'm john brought up something. i think that's really important . sergeant schultz, as i referred to him on this program and micron. they have, it's very interesting, i'm glad you brought this up because if you listen to them closely you, i can't even de supposed to odd days. they talk about after the conflict, what has to happen, and they get shut down the media or a we're in the same speech of it, but we're 100 percent behind ukraine, you know, whatever it takes. but both of them are actually thinking about after the conflict,

which is very interesting to me and they had their eye on washington at the same time. jo ann, well they, these are the 2 who could have provided the bug leadership that was needed to avoid this conflict. and instead they, as john pointed out, they get well beaten, they get bright. i'm not saying macanna. ange and shots were bright, but that's is the european political class. this was europe's chance, also to be independent of both russia and china and the united states to stand on its own. and they blew it as well. they have become more and more of a vessel of the united states than ever before. and this is one of the great tragedies that we've seen on following up to the point where their own interest, the interest of our own people. and they have to win elections of being hurt so badly, have started way back in 2014. when germany was forced by the u. s. to put sanctions on russia back then, and the german business spend more crazy. they didn't want it then. and merkle went along and did it anyway because the americans wanted to and they were listening to her telephone. so she probably knew that so i mean, it's

a tragedy all across the board here. and unfortunately this conversation hasn't changed my mind one bit. i don't see any way out of this. i only see things getting much from more frightening and more dangerous every day. this conflict goes on. i agree with you and, and john, you know, you know, being an american living in america, the, have, we have reached a peak zalinski yet because, i mean it's, it's truly extraordinary. i've never, we thought, you know, we thought the are the drive to the iraq war was like, you know, the, the, the greatest propaganda gambit of all time. this has to take the cake. i mean, it's extraordinary. when i talk to people, the lack of knowledge, we have, you know, when the catastrophe hits no one in america or virtually no one in america is going to know why. go ahead, john. peter, you can buy a zalinski action figures in stores. now that's how we've reached the point of, of ridiculousness that you can buy a zalinski action figure to have as

a souvenir. you know, one of the things that has surprised me from the very beginning of this conflict is that so few americans recognized what was behind it. the united states cannot maintain it's, it's internet international, had gemini, when there's a strong russia and a strong china. yeah. it would have to destroy one in order to focus on the other. and i think that's what we're seeing here. this is an attempt by the united states and nato allies, to destroy brush out or to bog russia down over the long term in war that will slowly bleed it so that the united states can then focus on confronting china. that's why we saw nancy pelosi go to taiwan with no complaints for what well and john john and, and kevin mccarthy is on his way here. gentlemen here, that's all all the time we have here. but i'll make my prediction at the very end

being the host of the program. the end is the end of nato, and that'll be a good thing. okay, i want to thank my guests in washington alexandria and in paris. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our tea. see you next time. remember process ah ah ah 3 with cynthia, florida is throwing a ball in the snow falls apart or stuck on this comes with from ours, from them to lower the, to it in bt dufrane, you could keep the way in the politicians kills of the with on the

ship or was to live it. i'm done with him because a loop. welcome you. in the crucial chest middle school, all senior wookey bone is not pretty d still not a which is good. he's a little bit lou dvd well, they need to work with up. she's we can you video to fix that will be a good to go with us. when you go see, she'll be missed if they need to, then that'll set them off and you can give us his net. but did he do it? he is a federal stuff on this. don't see these materials, but the phone just to even in the so great you need to locate those slide down just to locate it doesn't help at all with them. yeah, yeah. i mean, she goes to choose a country. yes. please. then you'll have to learn this. my answer to it almost all is emotional specially to renew the lease is up and you took a little of doing piecemeal. mm.

i'm willing at the i so booted studio. no cranium, g coyer, shooting at her id. she ship dr. lien that she poured control in particular bought so she's shield that needs to be at the mobile dope. i liked the system really be me out of it. not said, what's it? what's anthony missy leah with falconer jones. actually, it's stems out arkell little dish, but i live well buffalo and then oh, crazy that to where you store lot of date, my sa, glenn, but just dory. yes or no, i live here, police get us, but we ship them. so just figured i needed his daughter to take him or what of them i need a you paying squirrels with us for a while. i'm on the beach or where are you familiar? with global,

i'm saying you have about i few book on my job is to put enough playing a double play. it goes so good on that for washington decided to supply chaos with $31.00 a brown's tanks. that's saudi off the berlin pronouncement. defending 14, a bit less time to be, craig was giving that note to ally to do this. say, we are fighting a war against russia and not against each other. think germany form and this is a, you should do nice in a school against russia with moscow labeling buttons decision as a serious escalation. and the iraq congress takes the streets in protest following the plummet of the national currency that.