linda community, you know what the students, you know, and it's time to feed, even in celia liberal and, and gaza on the, on those bank and the bad need of increasing our services, our, our help to this community because in all sectors, not only talking about food an indication but also the need psychological support that it's very important element. so it's, i think, you know, to, to leave or to see that they're not able to provide services. they need help. we try to provide, not only a 100, but also you station, but it is a political issue and we need politician to enter being to stop all of them to get all park. if you don't get to talk or, you know, to cooperate it to find concrete solutions, you know, that, you know, we believe that collation, the escalation will,

will be in the interest of no one for the latest updates from across the globe. you can visit our website, r t dot com. thank you for choosing auto international. ah, the, for the business and you clean the daily shoes and your medical grade. we just got to really just touch on the ceiling and provide you with such a circle in different intelligence. we can get you thrown with them the problem and you're still there with you. or if you're here take, if you brought in that the study skills on that

was the cleaning of waste coming to enough on ok which, which in longer it was just shown up and put him on. because a new, a divorce, you don't wish to know for the don't know what to do given me that you're going to do used just opinion enough to come up. ah

ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . if you've only followed the pronouncements in the so called analysis from western governments and they're pliant media than you know, very little about the conflict in ukraine. the fact is, ukraine is losing on this edition of crosstalk. we discuss how this conflict is likely to end with cross sucking the end game. i'm joined by my guest, jo loria in alexandra. he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com in washington. we have john kerry aku. he is a former cia officer. and in paris we crossed to joel rick mall. he is a political commentator or a gentleman, cross sock rules, and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want,

and i always appreciated well go to jo personnel exam drea. there's not much debate in western media and weston in the public sphere in general about the conflict in ukraine, which is a real pity because at the end of the day, it is at the expense of the ukrainians, actually. but because there is no trust left, we have admissions from merkel pettis jenko. and along that they never dealt in good faith with the russians. and i'm obviously making reference to the min sca process. so, negotiations at this point are not really in the cards, and i really don't see how in a normative sense negotiations we played out. this is going to be done unilaterally one way or another. joe. yeah, unfortunately, you're probably right. let's establish that this war should never have happened because as you said, they wouldn't. they were not serious about the midst. of course, they were deceiving russia to set up to train nato, to train ukraine for the war that they wanted, that they needed it. start in 2014 with a cool you. nobody in the west knows that a very few people. there's no debate,

there's no discussion is no historical context. there's no understanding of what means because there's no understanding that nato was all and the u. s. what were offered trading proposals, december of 2021 by russia to create a security architecture that would include bushes, security interests, all of that was ignored by the west because they wanted this war and they got it. and they have no intention to actually write of negotiating this. they are admitting that russia is winning the war that ukraine is losing, even though it's very difficult to know exactly what's going on on the ground by the very fact that they want to send more more r i mentioned in these german tanks, which is the big issue being discussed, so i'm afraid that there are various scenarios and we don't really know, of course, to possible to know when and how this war will end. but the scenarios would be the destruction of the ukrainian military. the, the russia could seize all of its historic russian lands over and ukraine. they

could have to take care of perhaps in order to finish di, not suffocation, although i don't see battling for key of in the streets. if you have to take over the capitol, but some engineering of it could, it may be possible that may end the war ultimately to the west, wants to keep bleeding russia to get back to their ultimate aim, which was to overthrow the russian government weaken it with the economic war with the sack, with the information more of the proxy will all of which are failing. i must say. ok, john, it really got to john in washington. you know, one of a discursive lee, if you look at the how this narrative has been constructed. and joe did a wonderful job of introducing it here. the problem with negotiations is people call it in the west, is that towards what end to see? i would like to see peace, how do we achieve peace? but the problem is nato washington london, kevin warsaw. because those are the major bar capitals in this. they want victory.

now see victory and peace. you know, they're 2 very different things. and if you want victory, well you're playing, you're all, you're playing a bit with the ultimate weapon that could possibly used in a conflict. but if you want peace, that's a very different story. but that's it. that's not attract the want to take, john. i think that's exactly right, peter, and you know that the american government has, has not prepared the american people or the american congress for peace. they've only talked about victory and you're right there to very vastly different things. you know, here in the, in the us, in the mainstream media, we see only news about how well ukraine is doing. we see reports with headline saying russia is losing that, that's a disservice to both the american people and to the ukrainian people. nobody's

prepared for either a long term battle or for peace, which as you note correctly is, is very, very different from, from victory. it shows that you know it because of the way the narrative is constructed here. europe is taking the brunt of this, at least economically. we may even see social and political unrest as a result here. because you have characters like the head of nato. stilton burges, if, if ukraine is defeated than the west is defeated, but i thought the west wasn't involved in this war. they can even keep their narrative straight here. and. and what it does is, is that i can guarantee you, and i only get expressing my personal opinion. russia will not lose this conflict under no circumstances under no conditions. it will not lose that. what losing and winning can be up in the eyes of the beholder. let's put it that way, but from the russian perspective, they're not going to lose this. i don't think europe was prepared for that, the decision makers for the preparing for this war,

they weren't prepared for that. russia was supposed to buckle in a matter of days. the rubel was going to go to trash and it would be all over. but it's it hasn't. and it won't happen. john, go ahead in paris. i am great. convinced of course i will not lose, but of course you change losing, but it's not collapsing yet. at least you see the phone. glad move, but love not very fast. i mean good. that the german line in 1918. the still more late the twenty's war. so, i don't know what's going to happen. i mean, the westport, more but more and more weapons there and i was going to happen, but i'm worried about the intensification of the country. now estonia is speaking of blocking the go for finland. if they do that is an act of war yet, but of course, if russians he acted that they would easily over her name is tanya has not the problem, but then he will be another unprovoked aggression against a nato member article, fire, blah blah, blah. and lord, they're going to duke, and i'm also interested in the internal repression, especially in france,

because you may know or not know, but now they have due to the cancer band. artie france, they have kids there, there. so, so funding him in the, in the bank cannot pay them and get money anymore, so that the bank cannot be the company, her worker. so you're a 100 plus a journalist, her all on the door and the same time. and there is a campaign against them. some people say that they should be verified, they have been working for the enemy and sounds of a, i mean the, the attack on artie france and just unbelievable. and believe i can tell the child is not on believable because they don't believe in free speech anymore. that is something they don't care about. that's an easy lindsay. with the grade. 60 ignores beverly b r. so which dealer surgery allowed? 60 they're? they're coming back to right for them. of course, violently anti version eddie doyle's. i mean, dis, joe newspaper was the fir, the most vicious against 80 and wanting to bang at ease of really, you know,

he in 60, they say is forbidden to forbid the. now of course it's compulsory to, for me. that was really amazing. that how did the change of the situation, you know, and then, and then of course, yeah, i mean, after the binding of our people recently, just having of course, been our tv. we see not as influential as he used to be. now he says there should be a good tribute after the war cry, of course, of the ocean needed, but also for the good. i believe it does include all kind of commitment. my job, the job you're making my point, you let me go back to jo here, tribunals, all of these things are, i mean there's, there's no pretense of trying to find a solution to this conflict here. there is actually, there is one know, go back to december 17th, 2021. that's what russia wanted. it was made public and it was brushed off. those still though, those demands are still there. and that's your starting point. if you want to have negotiations, but i think we're getting the same exact responses we did at this time as we did

then, joe didn't want to move. in april, there was an opportunity. there was an opportunity for a negotiation might then, and ukraine would have come out in a lot better shape course. they would have had to agree that crimea dumbass were part of russia and not join nato, but of course, united states and britain would burst. johnson in forefront prevented that negotiation and they will continue to prevent that if bach, mood falls, or when it falls, that could be an opportunity then to enter negotiation because that is a very symbolic battle going on right now. but i don't think that's going to happen because the west wants this door. busy to continue with the grave danger that it could escalate to the s, the ultimate conflict, and that could be the way the war ends were all dead. and this is why the west is playing with fire right now. they will not accept that. ultimately, they will have to agree to those treaties, or some form of that that they will have to accommodate russia. security interests, like the o. s. he said like the,

the hell thinking accords. this is something that even micron and shows, at least early on in the conflict, we're making some noise about until america told them to shut up basically. so, what is the only way to do it is to get a negotiation. i don't know where the russians interested at this point in a negotiation really don't know exactly what they're all well, and i just like joe, i think i can answer that a little bit. at least my observation, we go to john here. well, why would the russians go into negotiations with anybody in the west? they been lied to left, right, and center for years. why would you even contemplate talking to these people? know what's going to happen is political facts on the ground will be made. john, go ahead in washington. exactly repeated. you can't, you can't trust anything that the west says because everything has been a lie. you know, we say this here all the time. the russians have the several different times just in the most recent history of trusted, the west, to be honest in their negotiating points. and they've never been honest. you know,

we hear a lot to peter here in the united states about the russians being willing to fight to the last ukraine in. well, i would say that the truth is that it's, it's the americans and nato that are willing to fight to the last ukrainian. we hear in the news every day here about tanks, rate all the news over the weekend was about tanks. tanks, tanks, tanks aren't going to change the course of this war. the ukrainians can't win this over the long term. the only way that they could is with direct nato intervention. and that just simply won't happen. in the end, we're going to see the destruction of ukraine. we're going to see the destruction of the ukranian government. and we're going to see the, the movement of the ukranian people out of the country unless they agree to sit down in the russian, just as the russians asked many, many months ago and negotiate a dia, well, you know, all i can say about the, the ridiculous tank conversation, they will,

they all mouth the same way gentlemen. they all know the same way. i gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the end game. stay with ah, i mean with

issues which are formed over tens of thousands of years can give us important information into our climate and how it has changed over time. what a scary is our collections are melting at an alarming rate to learn more. we came here to now to help us to speak to victor puzzles that he is a great yellow just who has devoted his entire life to the topic. it is a fascinating at times dangerous and very important job. ah, welcome back to cross hawk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the end game with

okay, so let's go back to john then in paris. you know, if we look at all of the recent controversy seen, we can go back to russia gate and we can go back to our perceptions of the 2020 election in the united states. we and all the things floating around the bi demonstration right now. and then of course we have ukraine and it, they all have one thing in common, bad and flawed narratives, create bad outcomes, bad policy outcomes. and we're talking about in this program possible and game negotiations. but if i go to our guest in paris, well, any negotiations with the russians is munich, it's munich, every day. it's munich. ok? how do you get out of that called the sac? because, you know, the, it's giving moral justification. teal politics is not about morality. it's not about values, it's about power. ok, but the west will always co mingle, all these other ridiculous things and never really get to the heart of the matter. as i said in the beginning of the program,

if you want peace then work through that prism. they refuse to do it because every day is munich. go ahead john, them paris. yeah. busy it's funny that in germany, for example, the if day it is warning against sending thanks to the king, saying that the last time they did it. then in 4145 in the end of the he way. and in france, the people who go themselves on a freshly say no, no, because i mean, no, no because of the german past the messenger, thanks because the new hitler is of course, put in, i mean, it's completely ridiculous, you know, a long time ago. and they come in, they told me that the phone with central sheep, if you sensor old, you know, this audio hopefulness, then when you make a mistake, there's nobody to tell you. and that's exactly what the west is doing now. but basically shutting down old versus, and i gave the example r t r t was up the whole domain. i have not many journalists from after you. there was no work or hershon of put in the just wanted to get, give a job where giving you a g of information like people do on the,

on smaller you know, websites. but then of course, those people have too big for money ended on get paid. and when you were for are to you with the same work where you were being paid. there's a difference, but these people are not put in a portion of it. so i'm gonna try all those i've known and i've known several of them. they will not like that. well, i mean, went the problem. i mean, i didn't shout that. i mean it's, it's not about being pro russia, anti russia appropriate. why don't you have a debate about the issues that's all i try to do on this program? ok, well, you can, you can just sent all you want. you can tell me anything you want. we barring swearing at me and i don't really care because it's your opinion. let me go to jo. jo in washington alexandria, excuse me, in joseph morale. the vaunted out e u for foreign policy chief and he said something very curious the last few days he said it west has to support ukraine beek. and, but respect russia because russia defeated napoleon and hitler,

so that's why the western support ukraine. i mean that the, the, the lack of logic and clear thinking from these people is really astounding. i mean, their foreign policy chief doesn't know history very well that makes him, you know, a person to, to, to talk about the entire blocks security future with its neighbor. it's extraordinary. the lack of merit and competence. these people have jo, you know, sometimes these people that are held up in the media as being great. leaders are not very smart as you just pointed out. the ones who are smart, know exactly what they're doing here. and i think there are smart people. yeah. in u. s. leadership who know exactly what they're trying to do. this is for the u. s. the opportunity they've wanted ever since. of fulton came to power and yeltsin was gone and they lost control of russian society finances, resources. this is what they want to get back again. but we have to understand that the, the leaders themselves may be self deluded. they, they've created

a credible psy up, and they may be victims of their own psy up. and that's what is so frightening about this, that the escalator nature of the u. s. position at the beginning. it was biden who said clearly enough. we're not going to get nato involved. we're going to stop, you won't be able to attack crimea. we're not going to send weapons 2nd reach into russia. this keeps changing. and this is what so worrying right now. so that the ultimate scenario, what could happen would be the, the ultimate end game, which is the end of the world. and i don't know whether this understanding is enough person like an alina bet, burbock the foreign minister of germany, for example, or even joe biden. any more, i wonder if they would know the fire that they're playing with here. and the only negotiation right now could stop this, although i just could go on for years. and if it goes on for years and it could lead, as i say, to the absolute greatest nightmare of history. i judge, i saw john, i saw john noddy his head there. go ahead. tell me why you're not when joe was

speaking. go ahead. well, i had to joe's right. and you know, i think that the west should pay very close attention to a tweet from former prime minister. meant that if on friday and, and his statement just yesterday or day before, yesterday by the chairman of the duma, russia will not lose this fight period. this is an enormous country, it's a nuclear power. ukraine is an existential. we hear a lot of comparisons here in the united states to the us fights in iraq and afghanistan. there's nothing similar. there's nothing comparable between us and afghanistan, and iraq and russia and ukraine. and it's because ukraine is directly on russia's border. it's an existential threat. and because it's an existential threat, russia cannot and will not lose this fright. i think that's something that the west just simply doesn't understand and appreciate it because they're, they're, they're, they're, they're are blinded by their own ideology about their own moral virtue. it's really

bizarre when they're putting the entire fate of humanity. i am based on their per self perception of their virtue versus versus to the other. meaning the russia are, i mean, could you go back to burrell the garden and every in the jungle. ok. that's how these people take very the neo colonial and away shown. you know, we're talking unfortunately in some sense apocalyptic lee here. but before we get that, the u. s. pays almost nothing. it's not losing troops. it's making a lot of arm sales left, right, and center. and europe is, is paying the price on almost every single way. i mean, we talk about, and i, i'm, i, it's true truly saddens me the suffering of ukrainian people because this conflict should have been avoided. it was avoidable. but i, but i love europe just as much, and i just see europe paying the cost you what you know with the, the germans, the french now are announcing 40 percent increase in defense spending. yeah, well you had your welfare state because he didn't have to spend so much on the

military. okay. yeah, that's all going to go away. your civil liberties are under challenge. you been talking about are to you france here. i mean, you know, for all europe supportive of ukraine, what to get for it, what's a, get? nothing, but just nothing internet and nothing but the director, john aisd class has been totally bought. they do united states. that's what the girl was saying. you know, the girl said that the way the americans do they give you a back of whiskey bottle. they send you the seminar in the united states or her dinner varies or something like that. and that's the way the correction goes in. the whole class has been corrupted beyond believe, i am absolutely buffer to see how the case of imperial this message used to say these people are becoming their complete lack isn't united states. and so, because you treat them as democracy, it did not inquire about any lack of democracy or freedom in energy states. and i stood,

he believed that politicians like shows or maybe my car are not as extreme as they seem. and there are other sci fi as the media, but they're constantly under pressure from the media all on the gains in germany. the gains are just unbelievable. they're the most warlike property that you have a child. you know, i mean, i don't want to ask anybody their age on this program, but i do remember when the greens were very, very different in the 1980s. again, i will have new special program on that because i don't know what the hell happened to those people here. but let me, let me go to to joe, i'm john brought up something. i think that's really important. so sergeant schultz, as i referred to him on this program and micron they have, it's very interesting, i'm glad you brought this up because if you listen to them closely you, i can't even de supposed odd days. they talk about after the conflict, what has to happen, and they get shut down the media or a we're in the same speech of it, but we're 100 percent behind ukraine, you know,

whatever it takes. but both of them are actually thinking about after the conflict, which is very interesting to me and they have their eye on washington at the same time. jo ann, well they, these are the 2 who could have provided the bug leadership that was needed to avoid this conflict. and instead they, as john pointed out, they get well beaten, they get bright. i'm not saying macanna. ange and shots were bright, but that's is the european political class. this was europe's chance, also to be independent of both russia and china and united states to stand on its own. and they blew it as well. they have become more and more of a vessel of the united states than ever before. and this is one of the great tragedies that we've seen on following up to the point where their own interests, the interest of our own people. and we have to win elections of being hurt so badly . it started way back in 2014, when germany was forced by the u. s. to put sanctions on russia back then and the german business by more crazy, they didn't want it then. and merkle went along and did it anyway, because the americans wanted to and they were listening to her telephone. so she

probably knew that. so, i mean, it's a tragedy all across the board here. and unfortunately, this conversation hasn't changed my mind one bit. i don't see any way out of this. i only see things getting much fright more frightening and more dangerous. every day. this conflict goes on. i agree with you and, and john, you know, you know, being an american living in america, the, have, we have reached a peak zalinski yet because, i mean it's, it's truly extraordinary. i've never, we thought, you know, we thought the are the drive to the iraq war was like, you know, the, the, the greatest propaganda gambit of all time. this has to take the cake. i mean, it's extraordinary. when i talk to people, the lack of knowledge, we have, you know, when the catastrophe hits no one in america or virtually no one in america is going to know why. go ahead, john. peter, you can buy a zalinski action figures in stores. now that's how we've reached the point of,

of ridiculousness that you can buy a zalinski action figure to have as a souvenir. you know, one of the things that has surprised me from the very beginning of this conflict is that so few americans recognized what was behind it. the united states cannot maintain it's, it's internet international hegemony. when there's a strong russia and a strong china. yeah, it would have to destroy one in order to focus on the other. and i think that's what we're seeing here. this is an attempt by the united states and nato allies, to destroy brush out or to bog russia down over the long term in a war that was slowly bleeding so that the united states can then focus on confronting china. that's why we saw nancy pelosi gab, go to taiwan with no complaints for what. right, what? well and john john and, and kevin mccarthy is on his way here. gentlemen,

that's all all the time we have here. but i'll make my prediction at the very end being the host, the program, the end is the end of nato. and that'll be a good thing. ok, i want to thank my guests in washington alexandria and in paris. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time remember process? ah, ah, ah .

ah the who's washington decides to supply care with 31 a ground tanks, not shortly off the berlin for now some interest and 14 of its leopard tanks. ukraine, as well as giving been known to allies to do the same. we are fighting a war against russia and not against each other. thank you for the united war against russia, with moscow labeling berlin's decision as a serious escalation, a law hundreds take to the streets in protest following the plumbing of the national current.