and they're flying media, been, you know, very little about the conflict in ukraine. the fact is, ukraine is losing. on this edition of cross talk, we discuss how this conflict is likely to end in the cross talking the end game, i'm joined by my guest, jo loria in alexandria. he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com in washington. we have john carry out who he is, a former cia officer and in paris we cross the beach, all rick mall. he is a political commentator or a gentleman, cross talk girls and the fact that music in germany, tommy want, and i always appreciate it. well, i'll go to jo personnel exam, andrea there's not much debate in western media and west in the public sphere in general about the conflict and ukraine, which is a real pity because at the end of the day, it is at the expense of the ukrainians. actually, but because there is no trust left, we have admissions from merkel parish and co. and along that they never dealt in

good faith with the russians. and i'm obviously making reference to the minced process. so, negotiations at this point are not really in the cards, and i really don't see how in a normative sense negotiations we played out. this is going to be done unilaterally one way or another. jo. yeah, unfortunately, you're probably right. let's establish that this war should never have happened because as you said, they wouldn't. they were not serious about the midst. of course, they were deceiving russia to set up to train nato, to train ukraine for the war that they wanted, that they needed. it started in 2014 with a cool you. nobody in the west knows that very few people. there's no debate, there's no discussion is no historical context. there's no understanding of what means because there's no understanding that nato was all and the u. s. what were offered treaty proposals, december of 2021 by russia to create a security architecture that would include brushes, security interests, all of that was ignored by the west because they wanted this war and they got it.

and they have no intention to actually write of negotiating this. they are admitting that russia is winning the war that ukraine is losing, even though it's very difficult to know exactly what's going on on the ground by the very fact that they want to send more more r i mentioned in these german tanks, which is the big issue being discussed, so i, i'm afraid that there are various scenarios and we don't really know. of course, it's impossible to know when and how this war will end. but the scenarios would be the destruction of the ukrainian military. the, the russia could seize all of its historic russian lands over and ukraine. they could have to take care of perhaps in order to finish d, not suffocation. although i don't see battling for key of in the streets, if you have to take over the capitol, but some engineering of it could a talk may be possible that may end the war, ultimately to the west wants to keep bleeding russia to get back to their ultimate

aim, which was to overthrow the russian government weaken it with the economic war to sac, with the information more of what the proxy will all of which a felon. i must say. ok, john, it really got to john in washington. you know, one of the it discursive, lee, if you've looked at how this narrative has been constructed. and joe did a wonderful job of introducing it here. the problem with negotiations is people call it in the west, is that towards what end to see? i would like to see peace, how do we achieve peace? but the problem is nato washington london, kevin warsaw. because those are the major bar capitals in this. they want victory. now see victory and peace. you know, they're 2 very different things. and if you want victory, well you're playing, you're all, you're playing them with the ultimate weapon that could possibly used in a conflict. but if you want peace, that's a very different story. but that's it. that's not attract the want to take,

john. i think that's exactly right, peter, and you know that the american government has, has not prepared the american people or the american congress for peace. they've only talked about victory and you're right there to very vastly different things. you know, here in the, in the us, in the mainstream media, we see only news about how well ukraine is doing. we see reports with headlines saying russia is losing that, that's a disservice to both the american people and to the ukrainian people. nobody's prepared for either a long term battle or for peace, which as you note correctly is, is very, very different from, from victory. it shows that you know it because of the way the narrative is constructed here. europe is taking the brunt of this, at least economically. we may even see social and political unrest as

a result here. because you have characters like the head of nato. stilton burges, if, if ukraine is defeated than the west is defeated, but i thought the west wasn't involved in this war. they can even keep their narrative straight here. and. and what it does is, is that i can guarantee you, and i only get expressing my personal opinion. russia will not lose this conflict under no circumstances under no conditions. it will not lose that. what losing and winning can be up in the eyes of the beholder. let's put it that way, but from the russian perspective, they're not going to lose this. i don't think europe was prepared for that, the decision makers for the preparing for this war, they weren't prepared for that. russia was supposed to buckle in a matter of days. the rubel was going to go to trash and it would be all over. but it's it hasn't. and it won't happen. john, go ahead in paris. no, i am great. convinced of course i will not lose, but of course, you change losing, but it's not collapsing yet. at least you see the phone glide move,

but love not very fast. i mean, good. that the german line in 1918. the still molly, the trenches war. so i don't know what's going to happen. i mean the west pause more, but more and more weapons there and i was going to happen, but i'm worried about the intensification of the conflict. now estonia is speaking of blocking the go for finland. if they do that is an act of war yet, but of course, if russians he acted that there was easily over her and they stillness not the problem. but then he, due to another unprovoked aggression against a nato member article, fire, blah, blah, blah. and lord, they're going to duke, and i'm also interested in the internal repression, especially in france, because you may know or not, no, but now they have totally canceled band. artie, france, they have their, their source of funding. i mean, the, the banks cannot pay them and get money anymore, so that the bank cannot be the company or her worker. so you're a 100 plus a journalist, they're all on the door the same time. and there is

a campaign against them. some people say that they should be verified, they have been working for the enemy and sounds of a. i mean the attack on artie, france are just unbelievable and believe how, how the child is not on believable because they don't believe in free speech anymore. that is something they don't care about that, that easy. but the grade, 68 newspaper only behalf, so which dealer surgery a lot 60 they're, they're coming back to right for them. of course, violently anti russian editorials. i mean, does joe newspaper was the 1st the most vicious against artie and wanting to bang at ease of really, you know, he in 60, they say is forbidden to forbid the glow. of course it's compulsory to for me. there is really amazing. or how did the change of the situation? and then and then of course, yeah, i mean, after the bending of a fever, me that me just having, of course, we're on our tv. we see not as influential as he used to be. now he says there

should be of course tribunal after the war cry been of course of the election needed. but also for the good of a does include what kind of commitment my job the job you're making. my point you let me go back to joe here, tribunals, all of these things are, i mean there's, there's no pretense of trying to find a solution to this conflict here. there is actually, there is one though, go back to december 17th, 2021. that's what russia wanted. it was made public and it was brushed off. those still though, those demands are still there. and that's your starting point. if you want to have negotiations, but i think we're getting the same exact responses we did at this time as we did then joe, the one to the move. in april there was an opportunity. there was an opportunity for a negotiation might then, and ukraine would have come out in a lot better shape course. they would have had to agree that crimea dumbass were part of russia and not join nato, but of course, united states and britain would burst. johnson in forefront prevented that

negotiation and they will continue to prevent that if bach, mood falls, or when it falls, that could be an opportunity then to enter negotiation because that is a very symbolic battle going on right now. but i don't think that's going to happen because the west wants this war to continue with the grave danger that it could escalate to the s, the ultimate conflict. and that could be the way the war ends were all dead. and this is why the west is playing with fire right now. they will not accept that. ultimately, they will have to agree to those treaties, or some form of that that they will have to accommodate russia. security interests, like the o. s. he said, like the helsinki records, this is something that even micron and shows, at least early on in the conflict, we're making some noise about until america told them to shut up basically. so what is the only way to do it is to get a negotiation. i don't know where the russians interested at this point in a negotiation really don't know exactly what they're all well, and i just like joe,

i think i can answer that a little bit. at least my observation, we go to john here. well, why would the russians go into negotiations with anybody in the west? they've been lied to left, right, and center for years. why would you even contemplate talking to these people? know what's going to happen is political facts on the ground will be made. john, go ahead in washington. exactly repeated. you can't, you can't trust anything that the west says because everything has been a lie. you know, we say this here all the time. the russians have the several different times just in the most recent history of trusted, the west, to be honest in their negotiating points. and they've never been honest. you know, we hear a lot to peter here in the united states about the russians being willing to fight to the last ukraine in. well, i would say that the truth is that it's, it's the americans and nato that are willing to fight to the last ukrainian. we hear in the news every day hear about tax rate. all the news over the weekend was

about tanks. tanks tanks, tanks aren't going to change the course of this war. the ukrainians can't win this over the long term. the only way that they could is with direct nato intervention. and that just simply won't happen. in the end, we're going to see the destruction of ukraine. we're going to see the destruction of the ukranian government. and we're going to see the, the movement of the ukranian people out of the country unless they agree to sit down in the russian, just as the russians asked many, many months ago and negotiate a debt. well, you know, all i can say about the, the ridiculous tank conversation, they will, they all mouth the same way gentlemen, they all know the same way. right? gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the end game, stay with our team. ah, ah!

on cheap energy coming from russia, russian gush shape, and she bows. affordable and ship. you are the stable, which has been both, not the case. did you that will that this no longer there a it's a so form that by camp it on your to should, it needs to pick it up as soon as their muslim ship or football need you in a new one year both use bunch of money and cookie, probably squeaking like we've been on. what's your, who's your korean, who, your, why do you decide on sanctions? your sanction country? a section of course, because you want to change the behavior of the government person. why that hasn't

happened? sanctions hasn't function for is your media a reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? where are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? wharf is great. in a world corrupted, you need to descend to join us in the depths or remain in the shallows.

oh o children at saint and residential school suffered nightmarish levels of abuse, torture and child rape. and yet the office of the attorney general suppressed thousands of pages of police and evidence that identified those perpetrators in the school. i was electrocuted twice. i was only 7 years old 1st too high for me. so for me to put me in the chair by the law warriors to run over here to abuse somebody and run her and she kept solution with himself. some of them are my relative. didn't make it jerking themselves to death over those too. but yeah, it made me make me the person i am today because i'm, i, i don't give up with anything. investigations were too often handled differently because the deceased was indigenous. so many of the worst criminals got away. the

bishop's got away. the ones we've done most of the damage never got charged ah, welcome back to cross hawk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the in the game. okay, so let's go back to john then in paris. you know, if we look at all of the recent controversy and we can go back to russia gate and we can go back to our perceptions of the 2020 election in the united states. we and all the things floating around the vitamin ministration right now. and then of course we have ukraine and in it, they all have one thing in common, bad and flawed narratives, create bad outcomes, bad policy outcomes. and we're talking about in this program possible and game

negotiations. but if i go to our guest in paris, well, any negotiations with the russians is munich, it's munich, every day. it's munich. ok? how do you get out of that called the sac? because, you know, the, it's giving moral justification. teal politics is not about morality. it's not about values, it's about power. okay. but the west will always co mingle, all these other ridiculous things and never really get to the heart of the matter. as i said in the beginning of the program, if you want peace then work through that prism. they refuse to do it because every day is munich, go ahead john them paris where. busy is certainly that in germany, for example, the if day is warning again, sending trunks to the king, saying that the last time they did it, they mean 4145 in the end of their he with. and in france, the people who go themselves front, they freshly say no, no, because i mean, no, no because of the german pass the message to thanks because the new hitler is of course, put in. i mean, it's completely ridiculous, you know,

a long time ago. and they come in a storm me that the phone with central sheep, if you sensor all your audio hopefulness, then when you make a mistake, there's nobody to tell you. and that's it. what the west is doing now, but basically shutting down all devices and i gave the example fee up to you us up the whole domain. i know many journalists from after you there was no co hershon of put in the just wanted to get, give a job where giving you a bunch of information like people do on the, on smaller you know, websites. but then of course, those people have too big for money ended on get paid. and when you were for are to you with the same where, where you, where to being paid. there's a difference. but these people are not put gina portion or he turns out they want to try. although as i've known and have done several of them, they will not like that. well, i mean, went the problem. i mean, i didn't show that. i mean it's, it's not about being pro russia, anti russia appropriate. why don't you have a debate about the issues that's all i try to do on this program. ok, well,

you can, you can just sent all you want. you can tell me anything you want. we barring swearing at me and i don't really care because it's your opinion. let me go to jo. jo in washington alexandria, excuse me, in joseph morale, the vaunted l. e. u for foreign policy chief and he said something very curious the last few days he said it west has to support ukraine beek. and, but respect russia because russia defeated napoleon and hitler so that's why the western support ukraine. i mean that the, the, the lack of logic and clear thinking from these people is really astounding. i mean, their foreign policy chief doesn't know history very well that makes him, you know, a person to, to, to talk about the entire blocks security future with its neighbor. it's extraordinary. the lack of merit and competence. these people have jo, you know, sometimes these people that are held up in the media as being great. leaders are

not very smart as it is pointed out that the ones who are smart know exactly what they're doing here. and i think there are smart people. yeah. in you and leadership who know exactly what they're trying to do, this is for the us, the opportunity they've wanted ever since put in came to power and yeltsin was gone and they lost control of russian society finances, resources. this is what they want to get back again. but we have to understand that the, the leaders themselves may be self deluded. they, they've created a credible sy up and they may be victims of their own psy up. and that's what is so frightening about this, that the escalator nature of the u. s. position at the beginning. it was biden who said clearly, no, we're not going to get nato involved. we're going to stop, you won't be able to attack crimea. we're not going to send him weapon 2nd reach into russia. this keeps changing. and this is what so worrying right now. so that the ultimate scenario, what could happen would be the, the ultimate end game, which is the end of the world. and i don't know whether this understanding isn't of

person like an alina bet, burbock the foreign minister of germany, for example, or even joe biden anymore. i wonder if they would know the fire that they're playing with here. and the only negotiation right now could stop this, otherwise just could go on for years. and if it goes on for years and it could lead, as i say, to the absolute greatest nightmare of history. you know, i judge i saw john, i thought john nodded his head there. go ahead. tell me what you're naughty when joe is speaking. go ahead. well, i, i think joe's right. and you know, i think that the west should pay very close attention to a tweet from former prime minister. meant that if on friday and, and a statement just yesterday or day before, yesterday by the chairman of the duma, russia will not lose this fight period. this is an enormous country, it's a nuclear power. ukraine is an existential. we hear a lot of comparisons here in the united states to the u. s. fights in iraq and

afghanistan, there's nothing similar. there's nothing comparable between u. s. and afghanistan and iraq and russia and ukraine, and it's because you crane is directly on russia's border. it's an existential threat. and because it's an existential threat, russia cannot and will not lose this fright. i think that's something that the west just simply doesn't understand and appreciate it because they're, they're, they're, they're, they're blinded by their own ideology about their own moral virtue. it's really bizarre when they're putting the entire fate of humanity. i am based on their per self perception of their virtue verse versus to the other. meaning the russia or i me could, you could go back to brow the garden and every in the jungle. ok. that's how these people take very the neo colonial in a way shown. you know, we're talking unfortunately in some sense apocalyptic lee here. but before we get that, the u. s. pays almost nothing. it's not losing troops. it's making

a arm sales, left right and center. and europe is, is paying the price on almost every single way. i mean, we talk about, and i'm, i, it's true truly saddens me the suffering of ukrainian people because this complex should have been avoided. it was avoidable. but i, but i love europe just as much, and i just see europe paying the cost, you know what, you know with the, the germans, the french and our announcing 40 percent increase in defense spending. yeah, well you had your welfare state because he didn't have to spend so much on the military. okay. yeah, that's all going to go away. your civil liberties are under challenge. you been talking about are to you france here. i mean, you know, for all your of supportive of ukraine, what to get for it. what's it get? nothing, but just nothing internet and nothing but the director, john aisd class has been totally bought. they do united states. that's what the girl was saying. you know, the girl said that the way the americans do they give you a back of a whiskey bottle, a send you

a seminary in the united states or her dinner varies or something like that. and that's the way the correction goes in. the whole class has been corrupted beyond believe, am upset the buffer to see how a case of beer this message used to say these people and the government, their complete lack isn't united states. and so, because it's freedom is democracy and so did not inquire about any lack of democracy or freedom in energy states. andy, i truly believe that politicians like shows and maybe my car are not as extreme as they seem. and there are other sci fi as the media, but they're constantly under pressure from the media. oh, on the gains in germany, the teens are just somebody over there. the most warm a property that you have a one shot in. i mean, i don't want to ask anybody their age on this program, but i do remember when the greens were very, very different in the 1980s. okay. i will have new special program on that because

i don't know what the hell happened to those people here. but let me, let me go to to joe. i'm john brought up something. i think that's really important . sergeant schultz, as i referred to him on this program and micron. they have, it's very interesting, i'm glad you brought this up because if you listen to them closely you, i can't even days supposed to odd days. they talk about after the conflict, what has to happen, and they get shut down the media or a we're in the same speed to the but we're 100 percent behind ukraine, you know, whatever it takes. but both of them are actually thinking about after the conflict, which is very interesting to me and they have their eye on washington at the same time. jo ann, well they, these are the 2 who could have provided the bug leadership that was needed to avoid this conflict. and instead they, as john pointed out, they get, well beaten, they get bride much same, a con, inch, and shots were bright, but that's is the european political class. this was europe chance also to be independent of both russia and china and united states to stand on its own. and

they blew it as well. they have become more and more of a vessel of the united states than ever before. and this is one of the great tragedies that we've seen on following up to the point where their own interest, the interest of our own people. and we have to win elections of being hurt so badly, have started way back in 2014. when germany was forced by the us to put sanctions on russia back then, and the german business been more crazy, they didn't want it then. and merkle went along and did it anyway because the americans wanted to and they were listening to her telephone. so she probably knew that so i mean, it's a tragedy all across the board here. unfortunately, this conversation hasn't changed my mind one bit. i don't see any way out of this. i only see things getting much fright more frightening and more dangerous every day . this conflict goes on. i agree with you and, and john, you know, you know, being an american living in america, the, have, we have reached a peak zalinski yet because, i mean it's, it's truly extraordinary. i've never,

we thought, you know, we thought the are the drive to the iraq war was like, you know, the, the, the greatest propaganda gambit of all time. this has to take the cake. i mean, it's extraordinary. when i talk to people, the lack of knowledge, we have, you know, when the catastrophe hits no one in america or virtually no one in america is going to know why. go ahead, john. peter, you can buy a zalinski action figures in stores. now that's how we've reached the point of, of ridiculousness that you can buy a zalinski action figure to have as a souvenir. you know, one of the things that has surprised me from the very beginning of this conflict is that so few americans recognized what was behind it. the united states cannot maintain it's, it's internationally international. had gemini, when there is a strong russia and a strong china. yep. it would have to destroy one in order to focus on the other.

and i think that's what we're seeing here. this is an attempt by the united states and nato allies, to destroy brush out or to bog russia down over the long term in war that was slowly bleeding so that the united states can then focus on confronting china. that's why we saw nancy pelosi gab, go to taiwan with no complaints for what, like what? well and john john and, and kevin mccarthy is on his way here. gentlemen, that's all all the time we have here. but i'll make my prediction at the very end being the host of the program. the end is the end of nato, and that'll be a good thing. i want to thank my guests in washington, alexandria and in paris, and want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time remember process? ah ah,

ah ah, ah ah. for a time by the middle of the 19th century, practically the whole of india had been under the rule of the british empire. the colonial authorities had imposed that heavy death bringing the people into poverty

and were exporting natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the traditions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect even to those who cooperated with them. the fact of ignoring the religious beliefs of the hindus led to the mutiny embassy voice, mercenary soldiers, serving under the british crown. rebellion began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river, north of india. in the form of a mutiny. the rebels quickly took over daily. the heroic resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however, the forces were not equal. the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels cruelly, the enslaves, the boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their bodies for the amusement of the public. these type of execution was called the

devils with the obliteration of the mutiny resulted in the death of 800000 inhabitants of india. however, the british empire never broke the free spirit of the indians, and their will for resistance. lou rama and she'll have it completed sabotaged training and you get done and served in 3rd reich units as an as as captain a secondary command of the nuff the gul battalion, he trained ukrainian nationalist cadets. he was awarded to merit crosses and a nazi metal along with bon dera. he had been an o. u and member from the age of 19. ah, and the old artist on the been a sam, mom, a william on that it does offer ryan o'donnell bond. okay. excuse me, not studies to.