chris perry and andrew bag. sure. kilda, while we're helping evacuations from solider, so we're told i don't know whether you knew them or is that the kind of work in fact that the much our group do these evacuations from the theater? yeah, it absolutely is. and by the way, good evening, good afternoon. good morning. a great place to be on your show. and i thank you for inviting me. yes. that's exactly the sort of work that we do. and i have a to, to chris and andrew and my condolences to their families for all, for the loss. and you know, why i feel a loss of course, because the mission is all important and it is extremely dangerous. these guys were traveling as we all are asking vehicles on the russian on to refund as fives. and

now of course, with increasing the last month in our fresh, from infiltrating groups we're way behind ukrainian lines such as the group. and so, you know, we don't carry weapons. there's a reason for that. are there is a purely humanitarian and it puts, it makes this very vulnerable. there is no doubt in my mind that the russians are targeting evacuation groups. we have a and a. and if you know this again, there's no miss it in a find, a group of 30 of the a civilian vehicles and, and i one issue so yes, a tragedy. but obviously 2 very brave young men. do you have a contract with the ukranian government at the moment?

i know that you were hoping for one? no, not at all. we're almost a year into the wall. and we're doing this purely on handshake add on doing a fund. so yes, so the mozart group, obviously famous in even nature nation media, partly because it's ironic reference to the russian wagner group which you just reference that what, what exactly is it, i mean, was it wise to call it after you're being composed given i'm going to say that you like the wagner group. i mean, clearly the wagner group is a lot of weapons. that's a great question. and actually i, i have to think in a sense it was, but you know, we weren't really making very deliberate long decisions back in march. we were training guys in a hurry to defend here. someone came out with the name of the stock group and had already kind of gain fraction. and yes, in retrospect, absolutely because we,

there is no comparison between us and about in a group. absolutely not at all. you know, i've already outlined on missions. we also train ukrainian soldiers close to the front line, uni, western organization that does this union, the only organization that does this move out behind the front line within uh, refund. so that we can, we so that brigade modest can rotate that guys through our training courses here for the ranger, you're very different from the british arrange. a regiment which is seen as a kind of a grouping or formation to rival wagner in 5th is well, you know, and it really depends on how the range arrangements. mission is online, if it is the training and advice and assist, which is how i understand it. that's not often what we do because we must be doing training. we really aren't doing advice and assess, actually way you know,

in combat. our way where we run the most risk are in our evacuation ration. so we're running into, you know, trying to literally areas that are parallel to fall under heavy rush, not to retire in some cases, surrounded on 3 sides by the russians as we didn't see, chance can pull it off and recently, or places around. are we doing it to bring people out and to let you minutes turn spice to water is, remember, none of these play. all these people in these places are living in basements, again, under constant constant, are to refine. it is a rich them to go above ground to get anything that sustain slice. they have no electricity and temperature, the priest called there are only people on plenty of children to. it is, as you know, the russia, as you know, the russians deny any targeting of civilians and i presume to this would say

they've been suffering it since 2014 in don't bass. but i just want to get to something about your book when the temper gathers, if anyone thinks you're some crazy, new york on the border of donald rumsfeld, that book, why did you write that book? and you said we've had decades, a strategic failure and no learning from those at the top of nato. nato military is what, why have you been such a critic of the, was you fought in iraq, afghanistan? i know you shared a platform with former disgrace at the ca, david address, only the other day. you're happy that this book is out there and it's clearly shows the frontline, co face of fighting during those was and, and also arguably showing why why us forces they to a nation forces were defeated in these different campaigns. yeah, i mean that's a great question. um, i do,

i need the fact that i do defended my country or my country's military, but you know, that didn't take away the right once i retired to, to be able to criticize and hopefully constructively, because i'm looking for a better future in this case. in or at least address some key points. and i did some in the book, you know, there was not i, i felt that on the ground, afghanistan and iran, you know, in the initial, initial nation that in both cases there was a subsequent kind of deterioration of any coherent campaign plan that match the ranching policy and i think that's kind of under now you're going to have an in that kind of stuff. that is a problem and spoken to tony blair clearly lately maybe that's why you're not getting the funding. in fact, because you've attacked it was on terraces so much. why do you think that in the wagner group itself and the russian media has been saying, actually,

mozart is not the humanitarian type of group that you're describing. and even in nature, nation media, they misconstrue it. i suppose from your, do you see it comparing yourself in the way you did this information wall here is absolutely huge. so not a private military company. you're not a mercenary army. oh no, i mean, i mean they're not by, not by anyone's comes to any common concept at the time. they don't train weapons when all the findings. we're training the all and we're waiting and seeing civilians that is, you know, i'm on to all of us here in the leadership. adamant about that. so we, yeah, we were and of course of course, you know, to be is for most of the war we received great press coverage. you know, unfortunately we going through painful or painful period. here was

a former business partner. motivations were very different than the rest of the boss and was to make money out of the mozart group is now showing the most pain him the money. that's for b as much as you're going to hear about it a little too. but that is, you know, that's the crux of that most. and of course, you know, the media comes on in the united states. you can, if you've got, you know what, i'm going to chasing lawyer. any payment of money. and he said, come up with 15 or 16 of the worst things you can thing to scatter sky me and that us all scare the companies. and that is what he has done. so you know, he's lost a lot. it has not on our operations to all it was certainly not. you know, what i tell the guy says hello. we had them all on the inside. we had a guy who i should've gone in with, you know, i'm for me to trust things loose. let's move on, you know,

let's learn from all these, all these mistakes. yeah, i mean, i'm not going to get into the litigation and you know, honest to me as far as the media. i'm not going to, you know, to, to lay out the case against this particular guy. because that's not the form i want . i want to legal. i want to do this legally and conclusively, cho and i mean we invite vein on, but i mean, i just, i just because it's a subject of litigation. he said, i'm not going to comment on pending litigation, recent person comments. and sure defamation will be a much larger part of the proceedings. i have no russian investments, but i suppose so. obviously the big story that was covered around around the world was you're saying it's humanitarian aid and you're helping training. you did say on camera, hopefully you contributed to russian deaths. so obviously if you're a part of the global south that sympathizes with moscow in this situation,

if you are in russia, you're going to go, well, you know, he is the head of the mozart group group saying hopefully we contributed to russian deaths. yeah. ah, i, you know, i can look that same and again, i mean, because, sadly in this war and, you know, you do them all to you any more actually tend to, it tends to be, you know, them all the other streams. you take off the playing field of the chess board, kill the less dangerous to your own guys, your own country. you know, so we can dance around that, but why we train guys, citizens simply to defend themselves. that is to kelly. and i mean we're, we're professional, so just by background, there's no reason to live at this. you know, the best form of defense is office seminar, just train these guys literally to, to defend their families. we've got to train them to do more and,

and it was a bit like sounds, it sounds a bit like the european union, the us going where it is applied to the web. the thing that we live, that everything know, everything we're doing is exactly within the parameters of u. s. u. k. data policy. there's nothing that we are do. i mean the, the west is providing ukraine with lethal weapons. right? they kill russians. why they doing that? it's not, you know, it's to kill russians. so we can dance around. you know, this, this phrase ology, which is unfortunate. i don't like using the term care. you know, it's much more, it's much nice to say expel russian and beta, which is all true. but weapons are designed largely to kill people. and when we train soldiers, that is, that is sick all. and anyone who thinks said there is another goal to military

training or other goals, but there is no other central goal, perhaps more important than that. so we teach them how to shoot the weapons, understand what they're getting asked, but we also teach them how to look at themselves, how to treat themselves at that wounded, how to treat comrades and, you know, i mean, we, i tend to emphasize more the lives we say eve than the lives perhaps we contribute to ukrainians taking we're tired can all stop you the more from the us marine corps, former deputy special operations commander in the ukrainian capital after the spring. ah ah ah ah

ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with a retired gun, landry milburn ceo of the mozart group, the former deputy commander special operations on central in the us marine corps in the book that you wrote when, when the tempest gathers, you talk of your mother being in the red cross. i don't know what whether that's some kind of inspiration due to the activities. i mean, do you think she thought that the allies committed invasion, a crime of aggression when the allies invaded france in 1944. 0, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. i mean, right, think about that generation right. so they are, do you, 1st of all, i don't think this, i mean, the allies invaded france. that was a sovereign nation that had been invaded by the germans in yes, there was

a fishy government, but it was 99 grain has been invaded by nato. after that, who no invaded by nato. well, it was an american back who wasn't, and we have that phone call of the qu in kiev. you don't think the government of ukraine since that qu has been illegitimate since then. and maybe that's why the global south seas and, and of the u. n. didn't vote with you and, and american powers to condemn the russian invasion representatives representing most of humanity in the un. yeah, i mean, you know, i listen in india and i can only tell you what, mine's where kind of my moral compass lives. and i mean, i know, because i've been on the other side and arguing about the invasion of iraq, which i think is a great, you know, a great example that, you know,

obviously you can, you can make an invasion look, legal, blah, blah, blah. but bottom line is, and this is a, this isn't about ukraine in russia and my mind, you know, it's a big picture, right? it's about global norms. sure thing. it's about balance of power. it's about you said it's about who tim is not about ukraine and who to you know, so pension to yes, obviously i'm in is not an extraordinary. and i mean, i and a positive, i mean he's an anomaly one with right in late 20th, 21st century. a guy who has a t. c or russia in a way that russia has not been since under stalin. you know, even the latter, you know, the last days of the soviet union can see anything quite like this. and minister only this week with visiting south africa for the joint military drills between the south african army and the russian army and russian forces. they've obviously,

we're doing massive military drills in the pacific with china. bricks has never been strong of the shang, i. cooperation organization never stronger the whole of latin america, africa, se asia are all doing deals with russia. how do you mean hermetically sealed? russia has never been more open to me as reflect low currency. yeah, no, i'm not, i'm not talking about, i'm not human insights overseas. i'm talking about russian societies being a medically seal or from, from an international contact with the outside. well, you know, i, i don't think that it's, i don't think that it's so controversial if you have a state that's controlling, not just the media, but also to an extent social media saying that his band in any expression of descent about the war with very far away you went to the university where my father was professor, i got to say in britain, it is illegal. you are under threat of sanctions. if you mentioned that there's

a nazi as of battalion entire television channels. from the chinese iranians, the russians are banned in britain. if you look at press conferences in moscow, you see sky use report is asking questions. you go to a 5 star hotel, moscow, the most good time to sitting on your table in your bedroom, selling you put in as a war criminal. just about in britain, every new paper, every journalist, every politician in congress, in the british parliament where the grain, the belgian. no, no, this is frank points and you know why? i'm not going to push back on you because i haven't been to russian and for me would be a good idea for me to go on. so you know if what you're saying, but newspapers and hotels, i would ask those just privilege hotels. but, you know, clearly my point as this is, i mean, very clear, this is an unjust war. and, and, and then, you know, the end, clearly to the, the regime has,

has taken a policy that has almost offensive towards its own, its own people buying, you know, shutting down any dissent at all. why would, why would any country, you know, i know, i mean, this is crazy also discussion, but you know, why, why when you out on the st. within, within russia, they've often said that he was under putin was under pressure from the left in his country for years as the shelling and the killing of thousands of people in don't both to do something like this. and he didn't, he trust the min minutes records. but the point is, and i mentioned a very quickly by it's bar. i police compare the numbers are, are suppose a russian affiliated ukrainian nationals who are killed every year from the ukrainian shine 2014 through 2022. and then compare those numbers to the 1st 23

months of the law. and i think you'll find that the, the evidence that on best suffered far more on the russian and asians than they have it from ukrainian shine or in the war before. but as to what you actually are doing there in ukraine, you're continue our help anyway. no, really, i mean, we had 1st hand footage. i mean if you look at cnn or the b, b, c, before arguably they were got that they were showing the casualties in the dorm best. but i don't wanna go too much back of a history about it. because we are them in hong, i mean that your saying that it's a bit like the spanish civil war and the global south and the daily, the russian see it as your help and your humanitarian help is prolonging the war. russia will eventually win. and except there's something different about this war because russia is a nuclear power. so the more you helm the ukrainians in their war effort,

you increase the chances of armageddon as outlined by the bulletin of atomic scientists. it's not quite like the spanish civil war. it's not quite like any other war. you're putting the whole world at risk, the more you help the ukrainians ah, before their inevitable defeat. wow. you know, i have heard that argument the song and on. i think i think i could understand some of it. way back in february or march when it really, i mean, i mean to my, for the russians are going to want, you know, and, and i might even have argued, although i would find it hard to argue, hey, we should support them because it's better to just read the mandate off and then be invaded. but there's a couple of, you know, there's a couple of points that one is stand you totally, you know, it's a great question, but i think you've alert the question human dynamics, right? so, you know, the, the, the on predictable aspect of ukrainians,

especially as the weapons colonel, if a, from a to hadn't poured weapons written and bored weapons in the, if there would be not one weapon sent to ukraine. after putin in russia's view, defended the people of the dom bus. finally, after a years of provocation, then the war wouldn't have been. one of the war would be over. very, very difficult to argue that counterfactual would it, wouldn't it. and all i can tell you is this ok, i think i do understand your line of questioning. i'm just saying that no, absolutely don't buy it. and it's not because i'm emotionally ready to this wall. it's the fact that, you know, the west can benefit far more like just simply embracing the prospect ukrainian victory with nothing, nothing to lose or risk. and i'm not sure. let me great victory is you

have, you have identified who to know what the main reason you think booted is mad. i mean, you've, you've identified putin. you said it's not about ukraine. is all about russia so much. you love the russian people, you love the brand new people, and it's about getting beaten is mad because obviously, you know what i'm going to say if you do. and that is, they have nuclear weapons. mad stands for mutually assured destruction. this is not like any war you personally have 14 and documented. they have caliber missiles, they have tactical nuclear weapons, as well as strategic nuclear weapons. some people around the global south who don't support you or the european union with united states, the majority of humanity, arguably, gonna be asking, what is the mozart group doing? you are increasing the chances of the deaths of every one on this planet. we will 1st of all, i think that, you know, i understand the logic chain, but that's a very long chain. ok, well, we are only a button in the kremlin. we are here to improve ukrainian soldiers chance of

survival on the front line. now you can, you can draw kind of a cause and effect chain i as, as you know, people on the west has and they tied themselves and not about, oh my god, what will cause putin to escalate to nuclear? what, we don't know, right? i don't know if he's mad. what i, what i do when i, i don't, you know, he is the most are group, are pushing the world closer to unit the new and nuclear base. i think this honestly, that is very far fetched. a concern, of course it's a concern, and i don't have, i don't have any soothing words to people who are concerned except the same thing on the ground or the west helping ukraine is very, very unlikely to push to tend to to net a valid one is just me saying that isn't just my opinion if you read most,

i say experts been, you know, the think tank is to have a long time to study this and i do, well, we're not going to get to think of the fact we didn't know there was an effect change? i mean devil's advocate either way we were, you know, you're in there and you're in there, you know that there was a good, you're active in that cause and effect change. but isn't that the problem of cause and effect change in the was you 14, whether it be have canister, with american arming, of the merger, dean that we're turning to al qaeda and $911.00 the creation of isis and die by the iraq conflict. isn't the whole point and the failure of military strategy that you're right about in your book. precisely, this failure of comprehending cause and effect. and the fact that you may been creating for you to accomplish all of course, and any more, you know, once you get to wall all bets are off, as far as what the outcomes are. as far as i mean, we see, you know, that was my point. iraq, afghanistan, i'm not making

a decision to go to war. i'm running an organization it's, let's get this back in context on running an organization that evacuate civilians who don't want to get killed from their homes that are getting destroyed and with feeding and providing sustenance to other students. we're also training ukrainian soldiers who haven't received adequate training in order to, to at least enhance their longevity on the battlefield. right. s. i, there's nothing in that that things my conscience. i gotta tell, you know, i, if i lay awake at night long enough and i could draw a thread between those actions and nuclear war in the end of the world. maybe that would be the case. but if i could join that threat, i would never join the michael, i would never have to put the comments on. you know, so i guess what i'm saying is, i'm not, i'm not doing anything that you have said on. but you know, we were going to make our own decisions based on facts and rational analysis. and

that's what i feel that i have done, but clearly it's help funding it. god help your funding and i know you, you need funding. you want funding that your record, it is saying ukraine is a corrupt job society. ukraine is in violation of a convention that they shouldn't be filming prisoners. a war for propaganda purposes are killing russian prisoners of war. if you don't think obviously, lensky biden blink and the whole lot of them probably so knock in london, probably sholtes in berlin. they're all saying no, with any hundreds of billions of dollars there. and we try, i mean, we, we, you know, i talked about this earlier with your guys about that particular interview was as you know, it was the car, it was taken out of context, my voice and i watched it. i watch the interview on it. was it was produced by a guy named max blumenthal. yes, i'm good. let me,

let me get to points that i that i said yes. specifically, ukraine. what i all i said was saying, yes, ukraine has in the past had a you had a problem with corruption. that's undeniable. all right. and so me, prisoners of all is a violation of the geneva convention. my point is that if you are going to have the moral high ground and you're going to say, and i'm here, listen, i'm so my feet, my life. so your challenge and you want to say, oh, you know, support you crime. a convention i, every day i just, i mean we're going to the end i should just, i was actually watching the video. you, your guys put up max blumenthal, editor grays, and said whether it was a whiskey talking randy milburn to learn the video i posted, provides a clear and accurate depiction of his comments on the corruption of the great society, sick leadership and the propensity of its military to commit and videotape battlefield atrocities for its own sake, milburn chasing the ukraine, a gravy train and get back on the wagon. i don't even know yet you're reading from

you know, black's mom of course i don't agree. some look at his background. all right. i mean, he is a, it is a man. all right. so the point is, why did he also that video? why did he, what i say with contest. ok. yeah. i stand behind a, you know, i love, i love the premiums. i'm here, i'm the risky. my life you can keep trying maximum is all i me he's, you know, but i, i've, i've, so it was my see, no one i'm going to that ukrainians have no problem with that video. because because they know the nature of russian disinformation and that, and, and so, you know, but the point is, you don't support a side by simply spouting propaganda. you've got to be honest, on the same with united states. you just talk to me about what i write in my book where i criticize my own administration, my country's administration. this is the healthy aspect of it democracy. all right . you crane is a democracy. united states is marcy, we should encourage criticism,

not shut people down because we want to be a better society and ukraine, especially right now and all eyes on the world on your train. it's very important that ukrainian, the ukrainian government act accordingly. i challenge anyone to, to dispute, of course, kind of under milburn. thank you, and that's it for the show will be back next saturday, 78 years to the day since the opening of the all to conference, also known as the crimea conference with franklin delano roosevelt, joseph stalin, and winston churchill meeting to plan the defeat of nazi germany during the final stages of world war 2, until then you can still keep in touch wireless social media. it's not sensitive in your country, but you can always had to our channel going on the one tv on robert dot com, which new and old episode of going on the grantee very soon. ah ah oh ah ah

ah ah, breaking news on our t hospital in the loop dance group, public is struck bali, the ukrainian military using us applied high mars rockets killing over a dozen civilians bothers according to the russian ministry of defense allowed civilian infrastructure to again hit end on balance pi key of forces. hundreds of berliners take to the streets to protest that german decision of delivering tanks to ukraine. han marking 20 years since the us invasion and occupation of iraq, we beginner special coverage of the legacy left behind.