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i'm asking that see and welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the united. i remember it as new m chomsky predicted on last week's episode. the doomsday clock on tuesday move closer to midnight than ever before indicating how close the human species is to extinction. the atomic scientists who compile the supporting evidence for that cited the war in europe in the midst reports of imminent deployment of german tanks to fight russia for the 1st time since world war 2 were joined today by u. s. marine corps colonel who fought for nato nation troops in iraq, afghanistan, and somalia, the former deputy commander of u. s. special operations command central. now seo of military formation. the mozart group retired colonel andrew milburn joins me now from the ukrainian capital. thank you so much. a diagonal for coming on just before we start on the mozart group, but i know that britain a while it was morning before the announcement about american tanks arriving in theater. so they say at chris perry and andrew bag, jewel kilda,

while law helping evacuations from solider. so we're told, i don't know whether you knew them. is that the kind of work in fact that the much our group do these evacuations from the theater? yeah, it absolutely is. and by the way, good evening. good afternoon. good morning. what time you're in a great place to be on your show and thank you for inviting me. yes, that's exactly the sort of work that we do, and i have all to do, chris and andrew and my condolences to their families for all, for the loss. and you know why i feel a loss of course, because the mission is all important. and it is extremely dangerous, these guys were traveling as we all are asking vehicles under a rush not to re fi fi. and now of course,

we're increasing the last month in our read from infiltrating groups. we're way behind ukrainian lines such as the group. and so, you know, we don't carry weapons. there's a reason for that. are there is a purely humanitarian and it puts, it makes it very vulnerable. there is no doubt in my mind, russian. so targeting evacuation groups, we have a and a and you know this again, there's no miss it in a fine, a group of 30 of the a civilian vehicles and i want to she so yes, a tragedy. but obviously 2 very, very young men. do you have a contract with the ukranian government at the moment? i know that you are hoping for one. no, not at all. we're almost

a year into the wall. and we're doing this purely on a on don't a fund. so yes, so the mozart group obviously famous in even they to nation media, partly because it's ironic reference to the russian wagner group which you just reference that what, what exactly is it, i mean, was it wise to call it after you're being composed, given that i'm going to going to say that you are like a wagner group. i mean, clearly the wagner group is a lot of weapons. that's a great question. and actually i, i have to think in a sense it was, but you know, we weren't really making very deliberate long decisions back in march. we were training guys in a hurry to define here. someone came out with the name the most are group and had already kind of gain fraction and yes, in retrospect, absolutely because we,

there is no comparison between us and about in a group. absolutely not at all. you know, i've already outlined on missions. we also train ukrainian soldiers close to the front line, uni, western organization that does this union the, the only organization that does this without behind the front line within uh, refund. so that we can, we so that brigade modest can rotate that guys through our training courses here for the ranger, you're very different from the british arrange. a regiment which is seen as a kind of a grouping or formation to rival wagner in 5th is well, you know, and it really more depends on how the range arrangements. mission is our mind if it is training and advice and it says, which is how i understand it. that's not often what we do because we must be doing training. we really aren't doing advice. and this is actually way you know,

in combat. our way where we run the most risk are in our evacuation operation. so we're running into, you know, trying to literally areas that are parallel to fall under heavy rush not to retire in some cases, surrounded on 3 sides by the russians, as we did mr. chance can, that's all it all and recently places around are and we know it to bring people out and a few minutes and supplies to this. remember, all these play, all these people in these places are living in basements, again, under constant constant, are to refine, it is a written them to go around to get anything that sustains life. they have no electricity and temperature pretty soon called there are only people on there are plenty of children to. it is, as you know, the russia, as you know, the russians deny any targeting of civilians. and i presume to this would say

they've been suffering it since 2014 and in don't bass. but i just want to get to something about your book when the tempers gathers. if anyone thinks you're some crazy, new york on the border of donald rumsfeld, that book, why did you write that book? and you said we've had decades, a strategic failure and no learning from those at the top of nato. nato military is what, why have you been such a critic of the was you for it in iraq, afghanistan? i know you share the platform with former disgrace at the ca, david address, only the other day. you're happy this book is out there and it's clearly shows the frontline, cold face of fighting during those was and, and also arguably showing why why us forces they to nation forces were defeated in these different campaigns. yeah, i mean, that's a great question. i do, i need the fact that i, you know,

to defend my own country or my country's military, but you know that i didn't take away the right once i retired to, to be able to criticize and hopefully, constructively, because i'm looking for a better future in this case, or at least address some key points. and i did some to book, you know, that was not i, i felt that on the ground, afghanistan and iran, you know, in the initial, initial invasion then in both cases there was a subsequent kind of deterioration of any coherent campaign plan that match an overarching policy and i think that's kind of under now you are going to have in that kind of stuff. that is a problem. you haven't spoken to tony, let clearly lately maybe that's why you're not getting the funding. in fact, because you've attacked it was on terra so. so much why do you think that in the wagner group itself and russian media has been saying, actually,

mozart is not the humanitarian type of group that you're describing. and even in nature, nation media, they misconstrue it. i suppose from your, do you see it comparing yourself in the way this information wall here is absolutely huge. so not a private military company. you're not a mercenary army. oh no, i mean, i mean, we're not by not by anyone's concepts. any common concept at the time, they don't train weapons when all finding training people and we're waiting and seeing civilians that is, you know, i'm on to all of us here in the leadership. adamant about that. so we, yeah, we, and of course, of course, you know, to be, for most of the war we received great press coverage. you know, unfortunately we're going through painful or painful period. here with

a former business motivations were very different than the rest of us and was hoping to make money out of the most group is now showing the most are all paying him the money. that's for the as much as you're going to hear about it. a lot to, but that is, you know, that's the crux of that hosting. and of course, you know, the media comes on in the united states. you can, if you've got, you know, what, i'm calling in tracing lawyer. any payment of money and you say come up with 15 or 16 of the worst things you can thing to scan this time. and that us scan companies and that is what he's done. so, you know, he's lost a lot since it has no relation to all it was certainly not. you know, what i tell the guys is we had them all on the inside. we had a guy who i should've on and, you know, i'm privy to trust things loose. let's move on. you know, let's learn from all these, all these mistakes. yeah. i mean,

i'm not going to get into the litigation and you know, honest to me as far as the media. i'm not going to, you know, to, to lay out the case against this particular guy. because that is not for him. i want, i want to legal, i want, i want to do this legally and conclusively true. and i mean, we invite vein on, but i mean, i just, i just because it's a subject of litigation. he said, i'm not going to comment on pending litigation, recent person comment, ensure defamation will be a much larger part of the proceedings. i have no russian investments. i suppose so, obviously the big story that was covered around around the world was you're saying it's humanitarian aid. and you're helping training. you did say on camera, hopefully you contributed to russian deaths. so obviously if you're a part of the global south that sympathizes with moscow in this situation,

if you are in russia, you're going to go, well, you know, he is the head of the mozart glueck group saying hopefully we contributed to russian deaths. yeah. ah, i, you know, i can look that same and that, yeah, i mean, because, sadly, in this war and, you know, you do them all to know any more actually tend to do, tends to be, you know, them all the other streams. you take off the playing field of the chessboard kill because the less dangerous to your own guys to your own country. you know, so we can dance around that. but why we train guys? citizens simply to defend themselves. it's kelly. i mean we're, we're professional. so just by background, there's no reason to live at this. you know, the best form of defense is often seminar, just train. these guys are literally to, to defend their families. we've got to train them to do more and,

and it was a bit like sounds, it sounds a bit like the european union, the us going, where are they going to supply defense of everything that we live, that everything, everything we're doing is exactly within the parameters of u. s. u. k. nato policy. there's nothing that we are do. i mean the west is providing ukraine with lethal weapons, right. they kill russians. why they doing that? it's not, you know, it's to kill russians. so we can dance around. you know this, this phrase ology, which is unfortunate. i don't like using the term kill, you know, it's much more, it's much nice to say expel, rational data, which is all true. but weapons are designed largely to kill people. and when we train soldiers, that is, that is a goal. and anyone who thinks that there is another goal to military training or

other goals, but there is no other central goal, perhaps more important than that. so we teach them how to ship the weapons, understand what they're getting asked, but we also teach them how to look out for themselves, how to treat themselves at that wounded, having treat comrades and you know, i mean, i tend to emphasize more the lives we say a than the lives perhaps we contribute to ukrainians, taking retired gun. i'll stop you there more from the sprinklers, former deputy special operations commander in the ukrainian capital after this break. ah, with this is for more a conflict over color and status involving to united states and russia. it's a question of all russia assert deep

a sphere of influence in the former soviet space. it holds the year abroad, and ukraine easy son shot in order to take this out. he stays doesn't want to allow us to happen. and this is father. what is going wrong? ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with retired gun landry milburn ceo of the mozart group and former deputy commander special operations gone central in the us marine corps in the book. look at the erode when when the tempers gathers . you talk of your mother being in the red cross. i don't know what whether that's some kind of inspiration due to the activities. i mean, do you think she thought that the allies committed to invasion a crime of aggression when the allies invaded france? and i do 44. 0 no, no, no, no, show, no, no, i mean, right?

think about that generation right. so they, ah, do you all, 1st of all, i don't think this immediately invaded france. that was a sovereign nation that had been invaded by the germans in yes, there was a fishy government, but it was not a either. the leg crane has been invaded by nato. after that. who? oh no. oh, yeah. invaded by nato. well, it was an american back to wasn't that we have that phone call of the qu in kiev. you don't think the government of ukraine since that who has been illegitimate since then. and maybe that's why the global south seas and at the u. n. didn't vote with you and, and american powers to condemn the russian invasion representatives representing most of humanity of the un. yeah, i mean, i, you know, i listen in the end. i can only tell you what my, where kind of my moral compass lies. and a, i mean,

i know because i've been on the other side and arguing about the invasion of iraq, which i think is a great, you know, a great example on that. you know, obviously you can, you can make an invasion look legal problem. but bottom line is, and just to say this isn't about you trying to rush in my mind. you know, it's a big picture, right? it's about global norms. sure thing, and it's about balance of power. it's about you said it's about newton is not about ukraine and it's not who to no, so pension to yes, obviously i'm in is not an extraordinary. and i mean, i in a positive place. i mean, he's an anomaly. wonderful, right. in late 20th, 21st century, a guy who has committed a sealed russia in a way that russia has not been since under style. and, you know, even the latter, you know,

that the last days of the soviet union can see anything quite like this. and minister only this week was visiting south africa for the joint military drills between the south african army and the russian army and russian forces. they've obviously, we doing massive military drills in the pacific with china. bricks has never been strong of the shang, i, cooperation organization never stronger the whole of latin america, africa. se asia are all doing deals with russia. how do you mean hermetically sealed? russia has never been more open to me as reflect low currency. yeah, no, i'm not, i'm not talking about, i'm not human insights overseas. i'm talking about russian societies being medically still from, from our information contact. the downside. well, i don't think that it's, i don't think that so on compensation, if you have a state that's controlling, not just the media, but also to an extent social media say that is banning any expression of descent

about the war with for, i mean you, if you went to the university where my father was professor, i got to say in britain, it is illegal. if you are under threat of sanctions, if you mentioned that there's not as of battalion entire television channels from the chinese iranians, the russians are banned in britain. if you look at press conferences in moscow, you see sky is reported asking questions. you go to a 5 star hotel, moscow. the most good times are sitting on your table in your bedroom, selling you put in as a war criminal. just about in britain, every new paper, every journalist, every politician in congress, in the british parliament, whether you grant developing yeah. no, this is my points and you know why i'm not going to push back, can you? because i haven't been to rushman and for me would be a good idea for me to go on. so you know, if were you saying that newspapers and hotels i would ask are those just privilege

hotels? but, you know, clearly my point is, this is, i mean very clear, this is an unjust war on and, and then in the end, clearly to the, the regime has, has taken a policy that has almost offensive towards its own, its own people buying, you know, shutting down any dissenter, don't. why with my, with any country, you know, i know, i mean, this is rachel is also discussion. but you know, why, why, why when you out on the st. within, within russia, they've often said that he was under putin was under pressure from the left in his country for years as the shelling and the killing of thousands of people in don't both to do something like this. and he didn't, he trust the min minutes records. but the boy is, and i mentioned a very quickly by it's by i police compare the numbers are, are suppose, in

a russian affiliated ukrainian nationals who were killed every year from the ukrainian shine 2014 through 2022. and then compare those numbers for the 1st 23 months of the law. and i think you'll find that the, the evidence dumbass suffered far more on the russian nation than i have it from ukrainian shine or in the war before. but as to what you actually are doing there in ukraine, you're continue our help anyway. no, really. i mean, we had 1st hand footage. i mean, if you look at c, n, n or the b b, c, before arguably they were got that they were showing the casualties in the dorm bus, but i don't go too much back of a history about it because we owe them a. i mean that your saying that it's a bit like the spanish civil war and the global south, and the clearly the russian see it as your help and your humanitarian help is prolonging the war. russia will eventually win. and except there's something

different about this war because russia is a nuclear power. so the more you helm the ukrainians in their war effort, you increase the chances of armageddon as outlined by the bulletin of atomic scientists. it's not quite like the spanish civil war. it's not quite like any other war. you're putting the whole world at risk, the more you help the ukrainians or before their inevitable defeat. wow. you know, i have heard that argument the song and i think i think i could understand some of it. wait back in february or march when it really, i mean, i mean to, i thought the russians are going to win. you know, and, and i might even have argued, although i would find it hard to argue, hey, we should support them because it's better to just read it off and then, and they are. but there's a couple of, you know, there's a couple of points that one is stag, you've totally, you know, it's

a great question, but i think you've alert the question of human dynamics. right? so, you know, the, the, the unpredictable aspect of ukrainian social is the weapons colonel, if a, from a to hadn't poured weapon written and bored weapons in, if they'd be not one weapon sent to ukraine. after putin in russia's view, defended the people of the dom bus finally, after a years of provocation, than the war wouldn't have been with the war, would be over. very, very difficult to argue that counterfactual would it, wouldn't it. and all i can tell you is this ok, i think i do understand your line of questioning. i'm just saying that no, absolutely don't buy it. and it's not because i'm emotionally ready to this wall is the fact that, you know, the west can benefit far more. i just simply embracing the prospect ukrainian

victory with nothing, nothing to lose or risk. and i'm not sure. let me grania victory is you have, you have identified who to know what the main reason you think booted is mad. i mean, you've, you've identified putin. you said it's not about ukraine. it's not about russia so much. you love the russian people, you love the cranium people and it's about could you think guten, is mad because obviously, you know what i'm going to say if you do. and that is, they have nuclear weapons. mad stands for mutually assured destruction. this is not like any war you personally have 14 and documented. they have caliber missiles, they have tactical nuclear weapons, as well as strategic nuclear weapons. some people around the global south who don't support you or the european union with united states, the majority of humanity, arguably, gonna be asking, what is the mozart group doing? you are increasing the chances of the deaths of every one on this planet. we will

1st of all, i think that you know, i understand the logic chain, but that's a very long chain. ok, well, we are only a button in the grammar. we are here to improve ukrainian soldiers chance of survival on the front line. now you can, you can draw kind of a cause and effect chain i as, as you know, people on the west has and they tie themselves and not about, oh my god, what will cause putin to escalate to nuclear? what, we don't know, right? i don't know if he's mad. what i do when i, i don't know if he is the most, are group, are pushing the world closer to, you know, the new and nuclear base. i think that's honestly, that's very far fetched. a concern. of course, it's a concern and i don't have, i don't have any soothing words to people who are concerned except the same thing

on the ground. all the west helping ukraine is very, very unlikely to push food and to, to tell i want it is just me saying that isn't just my opinion. if you read most i say experts. but, you know, the think tank is to have a long time to study this and i do, well, we're not going to get to think of the fact that it was an effect change. i mean, that was it either way, you're not, you're in that kind of, you're in there, you know that there was a good you're active in that cause and effect chain. but isn't that the problem of cause and effect change in the was you 14, whether it be have canister, with american arming, of the merger, dean that would turn into al qaeda and $911.00 the creation of isis and die by the iraq conflict. isn't the whole point and the failure of military strategy the you write about in your book precisely this failure of comprehending cause and effect. and the fact that you may be creating a nuclear complex are all of course,

and any more, you know, once you get to wall all bets are off as far as what the outcomes are. as far as i mean, we see, you know, that was my point. iraq, afghanistan, i'm not making a decision to go to war. i'm running an organization. it's, let's get this back in context on running an organization that evacuated civilians who don't want to get killed from their homes that are getting destroyed and with feeding and providing sustenance to other students. we're also training ukrainian soldiers who haven't received adequate training in order to, to at least enhance their longevity on the battlefield. right. s. i, there's nothing in that things my conscience. i gotta tell, you know, i, if i lay awake at night long enough and i could draw a thread between those actions and nuclear war in the end of the world. maybe that would be the case. but if i could join that fred, i would never join the michael, i would never have to put the comments on. you know, so i guess what i'm saying is,

i'm not, i'm not doing anything that you have said on. but you know, we were going to make our own decisions based on facts and rational analysis. and that's what i feel that i haven't done but clearly. so help funding it. god help your funding and i know you need funding. you want funding that your record, it is saying ukraine is a corrupt job society. ukraine is in violation of a convention that they shouldn't be filming. prison is a war for propaganda purposes of killing russian prisoners of war. if you don't think obviously, lensky biden blink and the whole lot of them probably so knock in london, probably sholtes in berlin. they're all saying no, with any hundreds of billions of dollars there. and we try it out. we, we, you know, i talked about this earlier with your guys about that interview was as you

know, it was the car, it was taken out of context, my voice and i watched it. i watch the interview on it was it was produced by a guy named max blumenthal. yes, i'm good. let me, let me get points that. i that i said, yes. specifically. ukraine. what i all, i said was sad. yes. ukraine has in the past, had a, had a problem with corruption. that's undeniable. all right, and so me, prisoners of all is a violation of the geneva convention. my point is that if you are going to have the moral high ground and you're going to say, and i'm here, listen, i don't get my feet and my lines. so you challenge anyone to say, oh, you know, support you crime. a convention i, every day i just, i mean we're going to get to the end. i should just, i was actually watching the video you, your guys would up max blumenthal, editor grays on said whether it was a whiskey talking randy milburn to learn the video. i posted, provides a clear and accurate depiction of his comments on the corruption of ukrainian society, sick leadership,

and the propensity of its military to commit in videotape battlefield atrocities for his own sake. nobody chasing the crane a gravy train and get back on the wagon. i don't know, i mean, they don't like so huh. yeah, you're reading from, you know, blacksmith or say, agree from look at his background or, i mean he is a, it doesn't matter. all right, so the point is, why did he also that video? why did it, what i say with contest on? yeah, i sat behind a, you know, i love, i love your premiums. i'm here. i'm risking my life. you can keep trying maximum and i me is, you know, but i, i've, i've so didn't with my see no one i was for that ukrainians have no problem with that video because because they know the nature of russian just information and that it and, and so you know, but the point is, you don't support a side by simply spouting propaganda. you've got to be honest and the same with united states. you just talk to me.