and ukraine, easy son, short in order to do this, did all these things doesn't want to allow us to happen and this is a what is go we brought ah, i hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things considered? i'm peter labelle. germany is foreign minister, i don't mean a better box at the quiet part out loud when she claimed european nations are fighting a war against russia. indeed, what has been called a gas is, in fact, the truth. the collective west is at war with russia and their client state ukraine is losing. ah,

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess martin jane marrow cash. he's an award winning journalist and commentator. and here in moscow we have maxine search valve. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow institute of international relations for a gentleman cross off rules and effect, that means he can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate it was good at martin j america. what do you think of the foreign ministers words because she's got a lot of pushback for it and it's called the gaffe. but we all know gap is when someone tells the truth is that when they make a mistake. so she, she knew exactly what she was doing. i would even go further is that she may be making a blade become chancellor to push out sholtes. anyway. martin, your thoughts? well, yeah, maybe. i mean, i think it's really interesting that germany is so confused about the war. it just jumped from one, come to another, it started. if you remember. sure,

it's being very defiant and say, i wouldn't get involved and sent a couple of containers helmets to ukraine. army which we know we all mocked and made fun of the internet, but it does say a lot about western democracy when a minister who just speaks the truth. if he gets shot, shot down to give the metaphor and people are asking for to reach resign, you know, i think that some says an awful lot about where we are today was the truth and, and fiction. i always say the american war machine or american war business, because it is a business wherever it goes in the world. it always has 3 doctors know over simplification, owner recession and disinformation. and i think this is a story now about germany and the war. and this whole story about tanks, which is emerging really, you know, fits just now to completely, you know, i think we're to position now where it seems to me the war of attrition that we've

spoken about for so many days on this program is over. it seems to me that western the leads, particularly european governments, are almost pleading with their electorate. look, give us 6 more months. so we need, we just need 6 months in it because you know, the, me to have been thrown this bone with a lot of mates on it. thanks to great subject. you know that the, what the war has died down a bit because the winters are journalist need are all material to get their teeth into. we're going to see a lot of tank storage in the press the next couple of months, you know, and the meter is going to obsess over the subject of this war was all about tanks. it's a single subject. it's a silver bullet. you know, 6 months ago it was all tillery and now and now it's tanks, but i think tanks and the initiative from germany finally shows who gave in he so weak. it's unbelievable apathetic. he is still compared to hitler. it was a strong leader. you know? sure. completely with the opposite, but i think the story about tanks just raises the level higher from the higher you fall. well we do. what will those leads do with was the people who lived for them

in 6 months time, when the types story isn't working for them, you know, and they're being blown up and people like to ask questions. well, how much lead time costing, you know, because in the u. k. now, pensioners on delay in their apartments, they're actually dying from hypothermia because they haven't got the money to, to put it into the gas me. so if they hate themselves, and i think this is really part of a panic, now that setting in, you know, we can't believe 2 stories. on the one hand, we were told the western governments backing the recording forces were basically winning. look at this grammar. they've taken but now, you know, i mean a lot by to what's been told in to the, to the tanks. let's call it a black hole because it really is a black hole to fall into. he's been, you know, me, it makes me go to max here. because i this focus on the tank for me, it's just a metaphor. okay. what 304050 tanks are not going to move the needle. one way or another is meant by it will end up being quite humiliating, considering rushes,

i eyes in the sky. and i've been following on tell don telegram a few channels that show actually a very graphic video of the complex watching those abram tags. mel's is not going to be a good public relations. i think they know that, you know, we're going to send, but they're not going to send them for a long time. ok? because for me it's more about the escalation ladder. this morning. i'm seeing reports that you know now that we got the tank some of the way i'm going to talk about f sixteens. ok, this is the escalation. and martin is absolutely right. it's a way to keep me western public's interested. ok, because i remember they lead up to the iraq war is seen and when graphics crazy, they never hear when you build the structure, they just, you know, and that's what they're doing all over again. because this is an elite agenda and they're desperately to get get the public on board and laney max, go ahead. well,

i agree its about escalation letter. i also think its about a certain shift in the result were we heard today or yesterday, one of the top nato shelves, claiming that nature is prepared for war with russia, which i think is an outcome of an assessment of nato officers of their view of how brush it performs, but the matter of fact is that even though russia lost significant number of conventional forces should be, thinks that world most probably got to be get involved in conflict with. nito has not been tackled, such as, you know, on strategic navigation, other strategic arms and things like this. so, and this is one of the, you know, outcomes of going to the wrong reading of the military history. and my college brought up hitler and i have to say that hitler misread the outcome of the soviets in finish war, where the soviets last. and he thought that, you know,

sort of 2 or 2 weeks and they could be tackled. so, and i think right now natal may be reading the lines wrong with here. and they believe that if they, you know, paul, more arms into ukraine, russia will, will suffer even even more higher a blow back. and you know, they will be dealt with easily. and i also would put it in a larger context and point to recent attack on iran and writing escalation to china. which here in moscow is read as part of a western strategy to go after the adversaries that have been put out there, you know, russia, china, enron is going to part of the world vicious axis, excess of little new axis of evil. and that all is incredibly dangerous and it's, you know, the if, you know, in the spring of last year, the us in particular, the western general have pursue the strategy of the so called, well,

we're going draw strategy where there will, you know, put out the heat gradually, now they see the strategy hasn't really work in and russia is still there and you know, is able to put up a fight. and there i think in dire need, because as michael mentioned directly might be of the war of attrition has not really bore any food for the western elite. so they're asked deleting much more quicker than they used to with the tanks would be ation and stuff, which unfortunately i can bring this even closer to the brink of a larger escalation. and i'm much gonna probably be intend to when i point out to both of you better bob's comments as foolish as they were then it divided the west more cheese to visit the bigger. but the same statement that she made, unified russians, because that was all over russian television. they say they even said it,

there you were, you know, where is there a war with us? so we didn't want to go to war with them, but there are war with us. i mean, it's really quite amazing how, what a slip of the tongue so called can, can be in a very different way, which nobody in western media is even dainty, even comment martin. okay. another thing here, i mean, you know, i just, you know, this escalation ladder. you know, the problem with nato and it's mindset. i don't know what military thinkers they really have because you know nato's entire existence, it was most effective when they didn't do anything. that was our childhood. martin . okay. they didn't do any. they were just there. okay. but you know, you know, they, they crushed serbia through the air power. serbia had no air power to respond. okay . i know they need to talk about the adventures in the middle east, you know, go hers with kalashnikov. russia is not a go her with a kalashnikov. okay. it has eyes in the sky, very sophisticated aviation and aeronautics okay. nato was never confronted this

before because they never expected that they would, but they threw their own inability to think strategically about the your asian landmass. they have found themselves in this, this again, it's just more loose talk. i can't imagine they want to send f sixteens to have them shot down. so many f sixteens were shot down enough canister. so many of 6 things were shot down on iraq. they will be shot down over ukraine. martin. yeah. and they're pretty expensive as well. and that's another issue that we should look at is that the, the money can continue. it just, it just can't go on forever. f sixteens. what 60000000 in a pulpit? you know that you can't you can't, susan. just write the most letter. it's interesting that you draw up this unsavory parallel with go hood is in any case it makes me think of it live a few years ago where the turkish army use liverpool, 2 tanks in a particular town and got surprised by the unwashed g. how this with a rusty

a case, you managed to blow up 10 of them. so you know, it's an indication and the nato should probably learn from that experience. these tongues of very capable and never advanced. and i think if we just look at the to bullet point some paper, they seem to be better than the russian things. however, ukraine is massive and we know from the age of experience, so these tanks won't operate very well in the urban environments. so you're really looking at the countryside. does that mean that russia focus is the war exclusively on the cities and the ukraine would be forced to make the decision to spend the time of the cities and risk, you know, huge losses. i think the tank story is, is a bit of a fantasy. a lot of fake news has come with it and i think makes a really, you know, talk about nature and it's rule and nature really is about fake news. and i don't know how long the narrative can continue before people start getting bit tired of

it. the whole point, i mean, is that i've always said this is that it is just the propaganda arm of the, of us foreign policy in europe. okay. and with and then they began to believe their own propaganda about themselves. russia wouldn't take our name. oh, my god, you know, well, you've told them they are at war with them. and when we go to maxine here, i mean, you know, from the russian perspective, i mean, you know, there's, there's, it's a military alliance. but what is it really made of, i mean everybody's cobbling together these little outdated tanks or, you know, they, the belgian cell things that don't work for them. so it was given to ukraine. i mean, embarrassing, you know, considering their highfalutin rhetoric all the time based on values. but, you know, it's, it's not backed up by much. is it go ahead. well, i think what other story that i think is we're looked right now in the west, mused the russian reading of this pressure over germany to supply thanks

very much put in the context of kind of anglo saxon geo politics of that is all this pursued the idea to drive a wedge between the germans and russia in europe. and you see the american, these courts and narrative on lease the need for the germany to supply. thanks to your where on the other, on the one hand, americans are precise in germany for its importance. they are saying, you know, german soldier is a civilian in the uniform and germany has been sold. he's seen under the american umbrella, so they have to learn how to take care of their own security. and then the other hand, what they're doing is exactly linking germany to us military umbrella, to even greater extent maps. after jumping here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that show break will continue with discussion. and so we'll stay with our 2 at

this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from great pain. with we will bring to the iraqi people, food, and medicines. and supplies and freedom with m m, my name is frank, i'm a reside from philadelphia. got in the movement in any age, 13 or 14. we were violent towards those people because we believed that word is

raised. we were here 1st. this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power. when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after hey, is an organization that was founded by 4 o skin head, neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out was 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremist group. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization work belief systems audiology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it without

well, the max across software, all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. this is the home edition to remind you were discussing some real news with go back to my son, moscow just to fall into the break. you were trying to make a 2nd point. go right ahead. i was going to say that the, you know, the by making germany give up their tanks to ukrainians, is the winner is clearly american military industrial complex that will but now producing even more american tanks that will substitute german once that will ultimately make germany in the rest of europe even more dependent on the u. s. military supplies and military assistance and then military restructure. whether this was the intent to feed the military industrial complex. that makes sense, but strategically, i think it may, it may, may turn out there's

a mistake as us is trying to focus more on try and then we'll have to keep a lot more resources in europe again in the morning with the old adage, you know, that when, when nato was established, keep the russians out, the germans down on the americans, and that hasn't changed very much. i mean, it's really interesting i'm, i think both of you are on the right track here. twisting germany's arm over tanks . what few they actually have, and i've been told by a lot of people that they don't really work very well. i mean, germany hasn't been in the business for a long time, and that's a good thing. okay. but with the, the new forcing them, you know, to, to yield to their will. that's what this is about. about tanks. ok. the blowing up did not stream pipelines that is enough. that's another shot across the bow to germany that this is the, there is a, there is, will be a germany will have

a breach with russia forever. there is no turning back here. you can have an energy relationship with them. we're going to tell you what to do with your military. we will determine what your national security interests are and they're getting away with it. they're actually succeeding. it's really quite amazing. i don't know how that's good for europe and security, which i doubt it is learn. i don't know what it's good for your insecurity, but we, when we look at the we go back to the beginning of the credible what was i think prolifically worrying for many western data. it was the rise of germany, germans ability to re arm itself. you know, the idea that germany rooms itself to protect europe is kind of leverage. if you think about it, you know, and that's well, you know, he chose, took precedence. a took that moment to take advantage of the situation. you're going to re on germany for the 1st time, and i think that's quite worrying in his own, but what social learning, i agree with you just being in a rest here. i mean, like i spent time in germany during my entire adult life, many, many,

many times. very interesting country. i don't where they get you to soldiers. nobody. nobody wants to join the military. going to florida. it's this month. you know, unless they get immigrants in which is something that could be very possible. i've always done that really interesting. germany wants to have like moldova in, in nato. they'll be the troops for nato. germans don't want to do it, branch, don't want to do it. oh, you don't want to have rela, germany being under the umbrella of the united states. go ahead, i'm sorry, interrupt. you're also going to remember the whole time story is logistical nightmare. i mean, you know, run reading books, ukrainians record that the soldiers can be trained in 10 weeks to man accrued. even if that's true, i mean, the americans always took about 20 week program for the abraham's. but even if it's true, you know what some chance are they going to stand as being completely wet behind is going to battle against the experience, the tank commanders on the russian side. you know. so i think, i think is, is

a fake news story. and i think was, was it we're going to see more also what's worrying is jeremy rearming itself. nature being put in a position where the next really big decision that they will have to make a decision on is the most worrying one, which goes me. which is that, how do we crank this war up the next level and, and keep them in to go and keep me on our side. keep voters also worries made is if these tanks have any impacts and they won't have any impact when you're talking about numbers of 30 or 40 to the hope is in something like 12 months time, you might get to 2 to 300. if they start to have an impact against russian forces that puts putin in a position where we, we just, we are so horrified to think of what he can do next. because what if he's pushed in a position where you have to defend the russian army against his onslaught? then i think the next level is possibly aerosol. now, teaching this for a long time as pulled back from central air force and to ukraine. is enemies claim?

that's because he doesn't want to showcase su, range of fighter jets because if a couple of issues get shot down, that's really bad for business. there's some truth and i guess going i think putins much, much more responsible. he's much more obsessed with keeping us away from the bigger option, the real war against nato. he doesn't want nuclear option, doesn't want rice is more air force war in ukraine because that just takes nicer to it takes the whole thing to such a dangerous level. and that will be the decision for nature in sooner if tanks on working then what's the next level after that is already been discuss max is the, the, the issue of supplying long range weaponry to the cravings, to was to attack crimea. that's i think the next step here. okay. and i in that, and that's obviously a step in the escalation ladder here. what, what i find interesting about is,

i don't know how meaningful the intent is. what they're doing is they're testing the waters to see what rushes reaction would be, because if it's running right, you know, because russia deems that is part of a sovereign territory. they've made it very clear that they will use whatever means necessary to protect their sovereign. obviously we all know where this is going, it's kind of like a very, very real life game of chicken here mass. while i think the crimea a store is indeed a big part of the deal way down the road, perhaps in the spring because it'll take a lot more military personnel and capabilities to try to, to, to, to, to see that there are, for now we've seen superior losses, so you're creating a new trend, different marks off of the from what i find remarkable. as you mentioned to the scene of tank store, peter is right now we have kind of to reality is going in parallel. on the one hand,

you have this going to media reality, where the western allies are trying to concoct wish narrative with, you know that they're supplying a frame, a lot of tanks, this, the russia last sentiment and so on, so forth. on the other hand, you have the reality that which is a lot more complicated and composed of logistical issues, political issues, financial issues that makes all the supplies a lot more difficult, that makes all the training a lot more longer. and you know, they're talking about monster when you see the situation on the front line is changing so quickly, you know, even couple of months, maybe a game changer. and the tanks may, you know, arrived at the time where they're not needed or they will not be able to help you play and, or let, let alone the ation. so i think that's part of the reason was made of commanders

and some of the western politicians making this, making this harsh comments and trying to jump, not just, you know, go up their level escalation or just jump up the letter of escalation which, which is very dangerous, of course. yeah. martin is also over the last few cycles, we had the li, blurry of stories, lindsay shaking up the political system in ukraine. and it's always about corruption way before this complex started. it was always about corruption. and unfortunately, i'm sure will bought a western or is there really going into bank on this when to i call it the 100 by paradigm. you know, they lee, but it's really interesting to me and said, you know, they were cleaning up corruption and all about, well, it seems to me that what have what happened there is that so many greedy there are so many greedy people around zalinski that, you know, people want a greater car to,

you know, it's really very much like the sopranos. okay. i mean, i'm going to get my cut me, i've cut this guy out and you know, and if the, because if there's a bundle of money constantly coming in, people are, we are seeing it. and i tend to think, and this is one of the reasons why i think that the kind of criminal mindset of the lensky regime is that they know this thing is going to be up, is going to be a month, a few months a year. but they want their cut before it's cut off. ok. and in the tank story kind of covered no kind of push the, the corruption thing. nobody really wants to talk about it though, right? but the day before the special military operation, grades that correct country, that's what most people knew. now it was seen over the last 11 months. how narrative's getting easily changed. martin. yeah, they do change a lot, but i think the corruption story is as funny writ this. this thing about this purge of getting rid of these so called corrupt officials. he did, he did immediately a few weeks after coming back from america,

where he went with the begging bowl and managed to pull up glinda and get the republicans to sign off the deal in congress to unleash something like 25000000000 in millichef alone. so, i mean, that's really what it was all about, but let's not forget for ukraine's one of them as grew up countries in the world. and, you know, this time so may will be puddled up. you know, it will be interesting to see, you know, how the pentagon keeps the straight face. my own government keeps a straight face and says you, unless we can't track these tanks, you know, we don't have the technology, we can put tunnel chips in them and, and check that they're actually in ukraine b. s. why don't you try bones, they can do it with a tang. luckily they do trucks them, but they don't want people to know that because if we, if the general public say, well, you're tracking them. can you show us on the internet where they are, you know, can you confirm at least that they're in ukraine? that's the issue. so corruption on both sides is, is a really big issue. but we should never forget. i'm always talking about the big

a war on the show was talking about the war beyond ukraine. we haven't talked about today, but that, you know, africa. i said to you on december, the 28th look at the african countries and look how many are falling. they're no longer becoming no longer staying as french vessels, you know, becoming now part of the russian sold. i said to me some attempts 28th. what begin a fessor is warbling, just like molly fell in august last year. because of us is about to fall is kicked out or in the french military. i think that will be africa will be a story which we should follow because more of these countries are falling now in line with either being non aligned or go into full 9 yards. and becoming part of russia's influence in the region of signing up the bricks. so let's not focus a stop says too much about tanks. tanks may, will blow up in the face of the west, you know, figure upon, i mean, i'm expecting not already, but some, you know, how far can they go really? i mean, i think, i think a lot has been made of the story and,

and the german press now or you feel day was, was this particular minister. but i see more division and i see the type story as a really, as a rod for the western. but unfortunately, joe get run out of time when i think my guess and medication. and here in moscow, i want to thank you are watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember across the boards? ah ah ah ah ah.

in time i'm rick sanchez. and i'm here to play with you. whatever you do, you do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. my little opinion that you won't get anywhere else. work of it please. i do have the state department, the cia weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your fax for you, go ahead. i change and whatever you do. don't watch my show, stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change and the way thank ah with

welcome to wells. apart. over the decades menu, words have been written about the nature of the russia tricky relationship, but perhaps one word would be enough to describe it. paradoxical on the one hand, turkey supplies weapons to ukraine, but on the other hand, it's trade including war, inspire, trade with russia is booming. turkey is, and the to member, but it also purchased russian made air defense systems. what's behind these geopolitical versatility? well, to discuss it now and join from anchor i by to door on their assistant professor at the department of international relations and bo camp university professor. and that is great to talk to you. thank you very much for a time. it's a pleasure to be on your show. now over the last couple of weeks we've heard the number of wes.