it exists and it is precisely the best option i suspect for its future is to find that amalgam of the cultures that are within it and turn it into something unique and flourishing. that that would define it in distinction but not conflict, but simply the difference between itself and its neighbors. mm. with

hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter about germany is foreign minister. i don't mean a better box at the quiet part out loud when she claimed european nations are fighting a war against russia. indeed, what has been called a gaff is in fact the truth. the collective west is at war with russia and their client state ukraine is losing. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, martin j marrakech he's an award winning journalist and commentator. and here in moscow we have maxine valve. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow institute of international relations, or a gentleman cross our girls and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i appreciate it was good at martin j and marriage. what. what do you think of

the foreign ministers words because she's got a lot of pushback for it and it's called the gaff. but we all know a gap is when someone tells the truth when they make a mistake. so she, if she knew exactly what she was doing, i would even go further is that she may be making a play to become chancellor to push out shorts. anyway, martin, your thought maybe i think it's really interesting. germany is so confused about the war. it just germany in one come to another, it started. if you remember, show it's being very defiant and say i wouldn't get involved and sent a couple of containers helmets to the ukraine, nominated which wheel locks and made fun of the internet. but it does say a lot about western democracy when a minister who just speaks the truth gets shot, shot down to give the metaphor and people are asking for a rich resign. you know, i think that some says an awful lot about where we are today was the truth and,

and fiction. i always say the american war machine or american war business because it is a business wherever it goes in the world. it always has 3 doctors know, over simplification, owner was ation disinformation and i think this is a story now about germany and the war. and this whole story about tanks, which is emerging really and it fits just now to completely, you know, i think we're in a position now where it seems to me the war of attrition that we've spoken about for so many days on this program is over. it seems to me that western the leads, particularly european governments, are almost pleading with their electorate. look, give us 6 more months. so we need, we just need 6 months in it because you know, the, me, to have been thrown this bone with a lot of meat on it. thanks to the subject. you know that the, what the war has died down a bit because the winter so journalist need are all material to get their teeth into. we're going to see a lot of tank storage in the press next couple of months, you know, and is going to obsess over the subject of this war is all about tanks. it's

a single subject. it's assumable it, you know, 6 months ago it was all tillery, and now it's now it's tanks, but i think come tanks and the initiative from germany finally shows who gave in he so weak. it's unbelievable. apathetic is still compared to hitler. it was a strong data, you know? sure. completely with the opposite. but i think the story about tanks just raises the level higher from the higher you full, you know, what will we do? what will those lead to do with the, with the people who vote for them in 6 months time, when the types story isn't working for them, you know, and they're being blown up. and people like to ask questions. well, how much of these things costing? you know, because in the u. k. now, pensioners on delay in their apartments, they're actually dying from hypothermia because they haven't got the money to, to put it into the gas me. so if they hate themselves, and i think this is really part of the public setting in, you know, we can't believe 2 stories. on the one hand, we were told the western governments backing the recording forces were basically

winning look at the ground what they've taken. but now, you know, i mean a lot by to what's been told in to the, to the tanks. let's call it a black hole because it really is a black hole to fall into. he's been, you know, it makes me go to max here because this focus on the tank for me. it's just a matter of for okay, what 304050 tanks are not going to move the needle one way or another. as matter fact, it will end up being quite humiliating, considering rushes, i ice in the sky and i've been following on tell don telegram a few channels that show actually a very graphic video of the complex watching those abram tanks. mel's is not going to be a good public relations. i think they know that, you know, we're going to send, but they're not going to send them for a long time. ok. because for me it's more about the escalation ladder.

morning. i'm seeing reports that, you know, now we got the tank some of the way i'm going to talk about f sixteens. okay. this is the escalation. and martin is absolutely right. it's a way to keep the western publics interested. okay? because i remember they lead up to the iraq war is seen in just when graphics crazy . they never say when you build the structure, they just, you know, and that's what they're doing all over again. because this is an elite agenda and they're desperately to get get the public on board and that 20 max. go ahead. well, i agree. it's about escalation letter. i also think it's about a certain shift in the result. we're, we've heard today or yesterday, one of the top natal, michelle's claiming that need to be prepared for war with russia, which i think is an outcome of an assessment of nato officers of their view of how bruship performs. but the matter of fact is that even though russia has

last, significant number of conventional forces should be, thinks that world most probably got to be get involved in conflict with. nito has not been tackled such as, you know, arms to strategic navigation, other strategic arms and things like this. so, and this is one of the, you know, outcomes of going to the wrong reading of the military history. and my colleague brought out hitler and i have to say that hitler misread the outcome of the soviets in finish war, where the soviet laws and he thought that, you know, sort of 2 or 2 weeks and they could be tackled. so, and i think right now natal may be reading the lines wrong here. and they believe that if they, you know, paul, more arms into your brain, russia will, will suffer even even more higher a blow back. and you know, they will be dealt with easily. and i also would put it in a larger context and point to recent on iran and rising

escalation to china, which here in law school is reddish part of the going to western strategy to go after the adversaries that have been put out there. you know, russia, china, enron, instead of part of the vicious axis axis of evil, new axis of evil. and that all is incredibly dangerous. and it's, you know, the, if, you know, in the spring of last year, the u. s. in particular, the western general have pursued the strategy of the so called boil willing growth strategy, where there will, you know, put out the heat gradually. now they see the strategy hasn't really work and russia is still there. and you know, he's able to put up a fight and they are, i think, in dire need because as michael mentioned directly, my view of the war of attrition has not really more any food for the western elite . so they're asked deleting much more quicker than they used to with the

tanks would be ation and stuff, which unfortunately i can bring to civil closer to the brink of a larger escalation. and i'm much gonna probably be intent here one day. i'd like to point out to both of you better bob's comments as foolish as they were then it that divided the west more cheese to visit the bigger. but the same statement that she made were unified russians because that was all over russian television. they think they even said it very well, you know, where they are war with us. so we didn't want to go to war with them. but there are war with us. i mean, it's really quite amazing how a slip of the tongue so called can, can be in a very different way, which nobody in western media is even, dane, the even comment martin. okay. another thing here, i mean, you know, i just, you know, this escalation ladder. you know, the problem with nato and it's mindset. i don't know what military thinkers they

really have because you know nato's entire existence, it was most effective when they didn't do anything. that was our childhood. martin . okay. they didn't do any. they were just there. okay. but you know, you know, they, they, they crushed serbia, air power, serbia had no air power to respond. okay. i really need to talk about the adventures in the middle east, you know, go hers with kalashnikov. russia is not a, go her with a kalashnikov. okay. it has eyes in the sky, very sophisticated aviation and aeronautics okay. natal was never confronted this before because they never expected that they would, but they threw their own inability to think strategically about the your asian landmass. they have found themselves in this that this, again, it's just more loose talk. i can't imagine they want to send f sixteens to have them shot down. so many f sixteens were shot down enough dentist. and so many of 6 things were shot down on iraq. they will be shot down over ukraine. martin. yeah.

and they're pretty expensive as well. and that's another issue that we should look at is that the, the money it can continue. it just, it just can't go on forever. f sixteens. what 60000000 of call you know that you can't, you can't, susan. just write the most letter. it's interesting that you draw up this unsafe re parallel with go hood is in any case, it makes me think of it live a few years ago when the turkish army use leopold to tanks in a particular town and got surprised by the unwashed g. how it is for the rusty a case you managed to blow up 10 of them. so you know, it's an indication and the nato should probably learn from that experience. these tongues very capable of ever gone. so i think if we just look at the to bullet point some paper, they seem to be better than the russian tanks. however, ukraine is massive. and we know from the age of experience, so these times won't operate very well in urban environments. so you're really

looking at the countryside. does that mean that russia focus is the war exclusively on the cities and the ukraine would be the source to make decision? do we spend the time of the cities and risk, you know, huge losses. i think the tank story is some is a bit of a fantasy. a lot of fake news is come with it and i think makes a really, you know, you talk about nature and it's rule and nature really is about fake news. and i don't know how wrong narrative can continue before people start getting bit tired of it. the whole point, i mean, is that i've always said this is that it is, it's just the propaganda arm of the, of us foreign policy in europe. okay. and with and then they began to believe their own propaganda about themselves. russia wouldn't take on. oh my god, you know, well, you've told them they are at war with them. and when we go to maxine here, i mean, you know, from the russian perspective, i mean, you know, there's, there's, it's a military alliance. but what is it really made of,

i mean everybody's cobbling together these little outdated pangs or, you know, they, the belgian sell things that don't work for them so it will give it to ukraine. i mean, embarrassing, you know, considering their highfalutin rhetoric all the time based on values. but, you know, it's, it's not backed up by much. is it go ahead or what other story that i think is overlooked right now in the west? nice. did the russian reading of this pressure over germany to supply thanks very much put in the context of kind of anglo saxon geopolitics of that is all this pursued the idea to drive a wedge between the germans and russia in europe. and you see the american, these courts and narrative on lease the need for germany to supply thanks to you. and where on the other, on the one hand, americans are criticized in germany where it's being quote and they are saying,

you know, german soldier is a civilian in uniform and germany has been sold in under the american umbrella. so they have to learn how to take care of their own security. and on the other hand, what they're doing is exactly a link in germany to us military umbrella, you to in even greater extent, mass after jumping. here we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real and stay with our a ah, ah, with a

with i am, my name is frank from a reserves and philadelphia got in the move in any age 13 or 14, we were violent towards those people because we believed that were the race we were here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power. when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by for a skinhead neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each

other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out. is 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremely good. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization work belief systems you all to remove. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it with our well, the max across stock are all things are considered. i'm peter. well, this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. the, the go back to maxima go just to go to the break. you were trying to make a 2nd point. go right ahead. i was gonna say that the, you know,

the by making germany give up their tanks to ukrainians in the winter is clearly american military industrial complex that will be now producing even more american tanks. that will substitute the german ones that will ultimately make germany in the rest of europe, even more dependent on the u. s. military supplies and military assistance and then military restructure. whether this was the intent to feed the military industrial complex. that makes sense, but strategically, i think it may, it may, may turn out there's a mistake as us is trying to focus more on china and then we'll have to keep a lot more resources in europe again in the morning. you know, with the old adage, you know, when nato was established, keep the russians out, the germans down in the american, been and hasn't changed very much. i mean, it's really interesting. i,

i think both of you are on the right track here. twisting germany's arm over tanks, what few they actually have and i've been told by a lot of people that they don't really work very well. i mean, germany hasn't been in the business for a long time, and that's a good thing. okay. but with the, the new forcing them, you know, to, to yield to their will. that's what this is about. about tanks. ok. the blowing up the north stream pipeline that isn't nothing. that's another shot across about to germany that this is the, there is a, there is, will be a germany will have a breach with russia forever. there is no turning back here. you're not going to have an energy relationship with them. we're going to tell you what to do with your military. we will determine what your national security interests are and they're getting away with it. they're actually succeeding. it's really quite amazing. i don't know how that's good for europe and security, which i doubt it is go ahead, martin. i don't know was good for your security, but we when we look at the we go back to the beginning of the credible what was i

think prolifically worrying for many western data. it was the rise of germany and germans ability to rearm itself. you know, the idea that germany rooms itself to protect europe is kind of hilarious. if you think about it, you know, and that's well, you know, he chose, took precedence. it took that moment to take advantage of the situation. you're going to re on germany for the 1st time, and i think that's quite worrying and it's own, but what's also learning? i agree with you just being in a rest here. i mean, i spend time in germany during my entire adult life, many, many, many times. very interesting country. i don't. where are they getting it to solve? there's nobody, nobody wants to join the military father. it's not, you know, unless they get immigrants in which is something that could be very possible. i've always done that really interesting on germany wants to have, like, mold over in the, in nato, because they'll be the troops for nato. germans don't want to do it. branch, don't want to do it. oh, you don't want to have rela,

germany being under the umbrella of the united states. go ahead. i'm sorry, the rep, it was going to remember the whole time story is logistical nightmare. i mean, you know, run reading books, ukrainians, record that us soldiers can be trained in 10 weeks to man accrued. even if that's true, i mean, americans always took about 20 week program for abraham's. but even if it's true, you know what some chance are they going to stand as being completely wet behind is going to battle against the experience, the tank commanders on the russian side. you know, so i think, i think is, is a freaking story. and i think will was it, we're going to see more also, but what's worrying is jeremy rearming itself needs are being put in this position where the next really big decision that they will have to make a decision on is the most worrying one which scares me which is that, how do we train this war up the next level and keep the momentum go and keep media

on our side. keep voters also worries made is if these times have any impacts and they won't have any impact when you're talking about numbers of 30 or 40. the hope is in something like 12 months time, you might get to 2 to 300. if they start to have an impact against russian forces that puts putin in a position where we, we just, we are so horrified to think of what he can do next. because what if he's pushed in a position where you have to defend the russian army against his onslaughts? then i think the next level is possibly aerosol. now to tennis for a long time, as pulled back from the air force and to ukraine is enemies claim. that's because he doesn't want to showcase su, range of flight to just because of a couple of issues. get shot down. that's really bad for business. there's some truth and i guess i think putins much, much more responsible. he's much more obsessed with keeping us away from the bigger option, the real war against nato. he doesn't want nuclear option, doesn't want s,

right? there's more air force. so war in ukraine because that just takes nicer to it takes a whole into such a dangerous level, and that will be the decision for nature is you know, if tanks on working then what's the next level after that is already been. discuss max is a, the, the issue of supplying long range weaponry to the grading students to attack crimea . that's, i think the next step here. okay. and i, in that, and that's obviously a step in the escalation ladder here. what, what i find interesting about is, i don't know how meaningful the intent is. what they're doing is they're testing the waters to see what the russians reaction would be. because if it's printing, right, you know, because russia deems that is part of a sovereign territory. they've made it very clear that they will, would use whatever means necessary to protect their sovereignty. obviously, we all know where this is going. it's kind of like it's a very, very real life game of chicken here mass. while i think the crimea was sore,

is indeed a big part of the deal way down the road, perhaps in the spring because it would take a lot more military personnel and capabilities to try to, to, to, to, to see that there are now we've seen superior losses of ukrainian military and different parks off all the from what i find remarkable. as you mentioned, to be seen on tank store. peter is right now we have kind of to realities. go on and parallel. on the one hand, you have this going to media reality, where the western allies are trying to concoct you wish narrative with you know that they're supplying a frame, a lot of tanks, they see the russia last sentiment and so on, so forth. on the other hand, you have the reality that which is a lot more complicated and composed of,

you know, logistical issues, political issues, financial issues that makes all the supplies a lot more difficult. that makes all the training a lot more longer. and you know, they're talking about months when you see the situation on the prompt line is changing so quickly, you know, even couple of months, maybe a game changer. and the tanks may arrive at the time where they're not needed or they will not be able to help you get your brain or let, let alone the ation. so i think that's a part of the reason we see native commanders and some of the western all additions make this, making this harsh comments and trying to jump, not just, you know, go up their level escalation of just jump up the letter of escalation which, which is very dangerous, of course. yeah, you know, martin, also over the last few cycles, we have the lead flurry of stories, lensky shaking up the political system in ukraine. and

it's always about corruption way before this complex started. it was always about corruption. and unfortunately, i'm sure will bought a western or is there really going in the bank on this one to i call it the hunter by paradigm. you know, they lee, but it's really interesting to me and said, you know, they were cleaning up corruption and all about, well, it seems to me that what have what happened there is that so many greedy there are so many greedy people around zalinski that, you know, people want a greater cut, it's really very much like the sopranos. okay. i mean, i'm going to get my cut me. i've cut this guy out and you know, because there's a bundle of money constantly coming in. people are seeing it and i tend to think, and this is one of the reasons why i think that the kind of criminal mindset of the lensky regime is that they know this thing is going to be up later. it's going to be a month or a few months a year,

but they want their cut before it's cut off. ok. and in the tank story kind of covered no kind of push the, the corruption thing. nobody really wants to talk about it though. right? but the day before the special military operation, your grades are correct country. that's what most people knew. now it was seen over the last 11 months. how narrative's getting easily changed. martin. yeah, they do change a lot. but i think though corruption story is as funny read this, this thing about this purge of getting rid of these so called corrupt officials. zalinski did, he did immediately a few weeks after coming back from america, where he went with a begging bowl to pull a blind to and get it republicans to sign off the deal. and congress to, you know, unless something like 25000000000 in millichef alone. so, i mean, that's really what it was all about, but let's not forget for ukraine's one of them. i grew up countries in the world. and, you know, this time story may, will be part of that. you know, it will be interesting to see, you know, how the pentagon keeps the straight face?

my own government keeps a straight face ancestor. journalist. we can't track these tanks. you know, we don't have the technology. we can put tunnel chips in them and, and shut them, they're actually in ukraine b. s. why don't you try bones they can do with a k roughly. they do trucks don't, but they don't want people to know that because if we, if the general public say, well, ok, you're tracking them. can you show us on the internet where they are, you know, can you confirm at least that are in ukraine? that's the issue. so corruption on both sides is a really big issue, you know, but we should never forget. i'm always talking about the bigger war on the show was talking about the war beyond the crime. we haven't talked about that today, but that, you know, africa, i said to you on december, the 28th look at the african countries and look how many are falling no longer becoming no longer staying as french vessels, you know, becoming now part of the russian sold i said to understand the 10th 28th was beginning fast, so it's wobbling,

just like molly fell august last year because the fuss is about to fall is kicked out already the french military. i think that will be africa will be a story which we should follow because more of these countries are falling now in line with either being non aligned or go into full 9 yards. and becoming part of russia's influence in the region of and signing up the bricks. so let's not focus a stop says too much about tanks. tanks may, will blow up in the face of the west in a figure upon, i mean, i'm expecting that already. but some, you know, how far can they go really? i mean, i think, i think a lot has been made of the story and the chairman press. now we're having a field day was, was this particular minister, but i see more division and i see the type story as a really, as a rod full the western back. unfortunately, gentlemen, who have run out of time, you know, when i think my guess in america and here in moscow and when i think our viewers are watching us here, larkey. see you next time remember? ah

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