jasmines that cast terror on the captured country and its inhabitants, fearing that their subordinates would simply waste bullets hunting for wild animals . the officers demanded that the soldiers gave an answer for every bullet used, and as proof presented a chop hand of an african, it was not uncommon when trying to justify the use of the ammunition. the colonist amputated the hands of not only those who were dead, but also of those who were kept alive. the atrocious exploitation of the congo turned into a real genocide. in only 20 years, the policy of the belgians led to the death of nearly 10000000 people alongside the holocaust. that genocide of the congo population is considered to be one of the grimmest pages in the history of mankind. ah

ah ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i am peter labelle. germany is foreign minister. i don't mean a better box at the quiet part out loud when she claimed european nations are fighting a war against russia. indeed, what has been called a gas is in fact, the truth. the collective west is at war with russia in their client state. ukraine is losing. ah. to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, martin jane marrow cash. he's an award winning journalist and commentator, and here in moscow we have maxine spouse. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow. institute of international relations are

gentlemen cause and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it was good at martin j and marriage. what. what do you think of the foreign ministers words because she's got a lot of pushback for it and it's called the gaffe. but we all know a gaffe is when someone tells the truth when they make a mistake. so she, if she knew exactly what she was doing, i would even go further is that she may be making a play to become chancellor to push out sholtes anyway. martin, your thought maybe i think it's really interesting. germany is so confused about the war. it just jumped in. one, come to another, it started. if you remember, she was being very defiant and say, i wouldn't get involved and sent a couple of containers helmets to the ukraine army, which, you know, we'll mocked and made fun of the internet. but it does say a lot about western democracy when a minister who just speaks the truth. if he gets shot, shot down to give the metaphor and people are asking for a rich resign, you know,

i think that some says an awful lot about where we are today was the truth and, and fiction. i always say the american war machine or american war business, because it is a business wherever it goes in the world. it always has 3 doctors, you know, over simplification, owner was ation and disinformation. and i think this is a story now about germany and the war. and this whole story about tanks, which is emerging really. and it fits just now to completely, you know, i think we're in a position now where it seems to me the war of attrition. that we've spoken about for so many days on this program is over. it seems to me that western the leads, particularly european governments, are almost pleading with their electorate. look, give us 6 more months. so we need, we just need 6 months. because you know, the, me to have been thrown this bone with a lot of mates on it. tanks subject you know that the, what the war has died down a bit because the winter, so journalist need all material to get their teeth into. see

a lot of times storage in the press. next couple of months, you know, and the meter is going to obsess over the subject of this war was all about tanks. it's a single subject. it's a silver bullet. you know, 6 months ago it was all tillery and now, and now it's tanks. but i think come tanks and the initiative from germany finally shows who gave in he so weak. it's unbelievable. apathetic is still compared to hitler. it was a strong leader, you know? sure. completely with the opposite. but i think the story about tanks just raises the level higher from the higher you fall. well, we do. what will those leads do with the, with the people who vote for them in 6 months time when the types story isn't working for them, you know, and they're being blown up. and people just like to ask questions or how much these time is costing, you know, because in the u. k. now pensioners are doing in their apartments, they're actually dying from hypothermia because they haven't got the money to, to put it into the gas me. so if they hate themselves, and i think this is really part of the public setting in, you know,

we can't believe 2 stories. on the one hand, we were told the western governments backing the recording forces were basically winning look at the ground what they've taken. but now, you know, i mean a lot by to, it's been pulled in to the, to the tanks. let's call it a black hole because it really is a black hole to fall into. he's been, you know, me going to make a go to max here because i this focus on the tank for me. it's just a metaphor. okay. what 304050 tanks are not going to move the needle one way or another. as matter fact, it will end up being quite humiliating, considering rushes i ice in the sky than i've been following on. tell don telegram a few channels that show actually a very graphic video of the complex watching those abram tanks. mel's is not going to be a good public relations. i think they know that, you know, we're going to send, but they're not going to send them for a long time. ok?

because for me it's more about the escalation ladder. this morning. i'm seeing reports that, you know, now we got the tanks out of the way. i'm going to talk about f sixteens. okay. this is the escalation. and martin is absolutely right. it's a way to keep the western publics interested. okay? because i remember they lead up to the iraq war is seen in just when graphics crazy . they never say when you build the structure, they just, you know, and that's what they're doing all over again. because this is an elite agenda and they're desperately to get get to the public on board and that 20 max. go ahead. well, i agree. it's about escalation letter. i also think it's about a certain shift in the result. we're, we've heard today or yesterday, one of the top nato officials claiming the needle is prepared for war with russia. which i think is an outcome of an assessment of nato officers of their view of how bruship performs. but the matter of fact is that even though russia has

last, significant number of conventional forces should be, thinks that world most probably got to be get involved in conflict with nato has not been tackled such as, you know, on the strategic the ation other strategic arms and things like this. so, and this is one of the, you know, outcomes of it's going to wrong reading of the military history. and my colleague brought out hitler and i have to say that hitler misread the outcome of the soviets in finish war, where the soviet laws and he thought that you know, 2 or 2 weeks and they could be tackled. so, and i think right now natal may be reading the lines wrong with here. and they believe that if they, you know, paul, more arms into your brain, russia will, will suffer even even more high of a blow back. and you know, they will be dealt with mutually. and i will also put it in

a larger context and point to recent attack on iran and writing escalation to china. which here in law school is read as part of the going to western strategy to go after the adversaries that have been put out there, you know, russia, china, enron, instead of part of the world vicious axis, axis of evil, new axis of evil. and that all is incredibly dangerous, and it's, you know, the, even if, you know, in the spring of last year, the u. s. in particular, the western general have pursued the strategy of the so called boil will draw strategy where there will, you know, put out the heat gradually. now they see the strategy hasn't really work and rush is still there. and you know, is able to put up a fight. and there, i think in dire need, because as michael mentioned directly might be of the war of attrition as not really more any of the western relates. so they're asked deleting much

more quicker than they used to with it. the tanks would be ation and stuff, which unfortunately i can bring this even closer to the brink of a larger escalation and a bunch of probably be intent here. when i point out to both of you better bob's comments as foolish as they were then is that divided the west more cheese to visit the bigger. but the same statement that she made were unified russians because that was all over russian television. they say they have and said it very well, you know, where is there a war with us? so we didn't want to go to war with them, but there are war with us. i mean, it's really quite amazing how, what a slip of the tongue so called can, can be in a very different way, which nobody in western media is even, dane, the even comment martin. okay. another thing here, i mean, you know, i just, you know, this escalation ladder. you know,

the problem with nato and it's mindset. i don't know what military thinkers they really have because you know nato's entire existence that was most effective when they didn't do anything. that was our childhood. martin. okay. they didn't do any. they were just there. okay. but you know, you know they, they crushed serbia. air power, serbia had no air power to respond. okay. i know the need to talk about the adventures in the middle east, you know, go hers with kalashnikov. russia is not a, go her with a kalashnikov. okay? it has eyes in the sky, very sophisticated ation and aeronautics, okay. nato was never confronted this before because they never expected that they would, but they, to their own inability to think strategically about the your asian landmass. they have found themselves in this, this again, it's just more loose talk. i can't imagine they want to send f sixteens to have them shot down. how many f sixteens were shot down enough canister. so many of 6

things were shot down on iraq. they will be shot down over ukraine. martin. yeah. and they're pretty expensive as well. and that's another issue that we should look at is that the, the money it can continue. it just, it just can't go on forever. f sixteens. what 60000000 a pulpit? you know that you can't you can't, susan. just write the most letter. it's interesting that you draw up this unsavory parallel with go hood isn't the case. it makes me think of it live a few years ago where the turkish army use leopold to tanks in a particular town and got surprised by the unwashed g. how this with a rusty a case you managed to blow up 10 of them. so, you know, it's an indication that the nato should probably learn from that experience. these tongues very capable of ever gone. so i think if we just look at the to bullet point some paper, they seem to be better than the russian tanks. however, ukraine is massive and we know from the age of experience,

so these tanks won't operate very well in the urban environments. so you're really looking at the countryside. does that mean that russia focus is the will exclusively on the cities and the ukraine will be the source to make decision? do we spend the time of the cities and risk, you know, huge losses. i think the tank story is, is a bit of a fantasy. a lot of fake news is come with it and i think makes a really, you know, you talk about nature and it's rule and nature really is about fake news. and i don't know how long the narrative can continue before people start getting bit tired of it. and i point, i mean, is that i've always said this is that if it's just the propaganda arm of the, of us foreign policy in europe. okay. and with and then they began to believe their own propaganda about themselves. russia wouldn't take on. oh my god, you know, well, you've told them they are at war with them. and when we go to maxine here, i mean, you know, from the russian perspective, i mean, you know, there's, there's,

it's a military alliance. but what is it really made of, i mean everybody's cobbling together, these little outdated tanks are, you know, they are the belgian cell, things that don't work for them so it will give it to ukraine. i mean, embarrassing, you know, considering their highfalutin rhetoric all the time based on values. but, you know, it's, it's not backed up by much. is it go ahead or i think what another story that i think is overlooked right now in the west, mused the russian reading of this pressure over germany to supply thanks very much for the context of kind of anglo saxon geo politics. all this pursued the idea to drive a wedge between the germans and russia in europe. and you see the american, these courts and narrative on lease and the need for germany to supply. thanks to

you in ware on the other. on the one hand, americans are criticized in germany for a quote and they are saying, you know, german soldier is a civilian in the uniform and germany has been sold, staying under the american umbrella. so they have to learn how to take care of their own security. and on the other hand, what they're doing is exactly a link in germany to us military umbrella, you to in even greater extent, mass after jumping. here we're going to go to what you are breaking out to lunch or break. we'll continue our discussion on some real. stay with our a . ah ah, with a with

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ah ah. well good match across stock are all things are considered. i and peter lavelle, this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. the the go back to my son must go just to go into the break. he was trying to make a 2nd point. go right ahead. i was going to say that the, you know, the by making germany give up their tanks to ukrainians, is the winner is clearly american military industrial complex. now producing even more american tanks, that will substitute german ones that will ultimately make germany in the rest of europe. even more dependent on the u. s. military supplies and military assistance and then military restructure. whether this was the intent to feed the military

industrial complex. that makes sense, but strategically, i think it may, it may, may turn out there's a mistake as us is trying to focus more on try 9, and we'll have to keep a lot more resources in europe again, learning to see, you know, with the old adage, you know when nato was established, keep the russians out, the germans down in the americans, and that hasn't changed very much. i mean, it's really interesting. i think both of you are on the right track here. twisting germany's arm over the tanks. what few they actually have, and i've been told by a lot of people that they don't really work very well. i mean, germany hasn't been in the business for a long time, and that's a good thing. okay. but that was the, the new forcing them, you know, to yield to their will. that's what this is about. about tanks. ok. the blowing up

the north stream pipelines that is enough. that's another shot across the bow to germany that this is the, there is a, there is, will be of germany, will have a breach with russia forever. there is no turning back here. you're not going to have an energy relationship with them. we're going to tell you what to do with your military. we will determine what your national security interests are and they're getting away with it. they're actually succeeding. it's really quite amazing. i don't know how that's good for europe and security, which i doubt it is. go ahead martin. i don't know what it's good for your security, but we when we look at the we go back to the beginning of the credible what was i think prolifically worrying for many western data. it was the rise of germany, germans ability to rearm itself. you know, the idea that germany rooms itself to protect europe is kind of a leverage. if you think about it, you know, and that's well, you know, he chose, took precedence. a took that moment to take advantage of the situation you're going to re on germany for the 1st time. and i think that's quite worrying and it's own.

but what's also learning? i agree with you just bring this in a rest here. i mean, i spend time in germany during my entire adult life, many, many, many times. very interesting country. i don't know where they get to get the soldiers. nobody, nobody wants to join the military going to florida. it's not, you know, unless they get immigrants, which is something that could be very possible. i've always done that really interesting. germany wants to have like, mold over in, in nato, because they'll be the troops for nato. germans don't want to do it. branch don't want to do it. oh, you don't want to do bella. germany being under the umbrella of the united states. go ahead. i'm sorry, interrupt. it was going to remember the whole time story is logistical nightmare. i mean, you know, run reading books, the ukrainians record, that the soldiers can be trained in 10 weeks to demand accrued. even if that's true, i mean, americans always talk about 20 week program for the abraham's. but even if it's

true, you know what some chance are they going to stand as being completely wet beyond is going to battle against the experience, the tank commanders on the russian side. you know, so i think, i think it is, is a fake news story. i think was, was it we're going to see more also what's worrying is generally rearming itself. nature being put in this position where the next really big decision they will have to make a decision on is the most worrying one which scares me, which is that, how do we crank this war up the next level and, and keep the momentum, go and keep me on our side, keep voters also. what worries me is if these tanks have any impacts and they won't have any impact when you're talking about in terms of 30 or 40, to the hope is in something like 12 months time, you might get to 2 to 300. if they start to have an impact against russian forces that puts putin in a position where we, we just, we are so horrified to think of what he can do next. because what if he's pushed in

a position way us to defend the russian army against his onslaughts? then i think the next level is possibly aerosol. now, teaching this for a long time as pulled back from the air force and to ukraine is enemies claim? that's because he doesn't want to showcase su, range of flight to just because of a couple of issues. get shot down. that's really bad for business. there's some truth in that, i guess. i think putins much, much more responsible. he's much more obsessed with keeping us away from the bigger option, the real war against nato. he doesn't want nuclear options. it won't strike more air force war in ukraine because that just takes nicer to it takes the whole thing to such a dangerous level. and that will be the decision for nature is you know, if tanks on working then what's the next level after that is already been discuss max is a, the, the issue about supplying long range weaponry to the cravings. do is to attack

crimea. that's i think the next step here. okay, and i in that, and that's obviously a step in the escalation ladder here. what, what i find interesting about is, i don't know how meaningful the intent is. what they're doing is they're testing the waters to see what rushes reaction would be because it 20, right? you know, because russia deemed as part of its sovereign territory, they've made it very clear that they will, wouldn't use whatever means necessary to protect their sovereignty. obviously we all know where this is going, it's kind of like it's a very, very real life game of chicken here mass. while i think the crimea store is indeed a big part of the deal way down the road, perhaps in the spring because it would take a lot more military personnel and capabilities to try to, to, to, to, to see if there are, or now we've seen superior losses of ukrainian military and

different parks off, off the from what i find remarkable. as you mentioned to the scene of tank store, peter is right now we have kind of to realities. go on and parallel. on the one hand, you have this going to media reality, where the western allies are trying to concoct with narrative with, you know, that they're supplying a frame, a lot of tanks this in the rush, last sentiment and so on, so forth. on the other hand, you have the reality that which is a lot more complicated and composed of logistical issues, political issues, financial issues that makes all the supplies a lot more difficult, that makes all the training a lot more longer. and you know, they're talking about months when you see the situation on the prompt line is changing so quickly, you know, even couple of months, maybe a game changer. and the tanks may, you know, arrive at the time where they're not needed,

where they will not be able to help you play and, or let, let alone the ation. so i think that's a part of the reason was she made a commanders and some of the western politicians making this, making this harsh comments and trying to jump, not just, you know, go up their level escalation or just jump up the letter of escalation which, which is very dangerous, of course. yeah, they get a martin. they also do over the last few cycles. we have the flurry of stories zalinski shaking up the political system in ukraine and it's always about corruption way before this complex started. it was always about corruption. and unfortunately, i'm sure will lot of westerners are really going to bag down this way too. i call it the hunter biting paradigm. you know, they lee, but it's really interesting to me and said, you know, they were cleaning up corruption and all about, well,

it seems to me that what have what happened there is that so many greedy there are so many greedy people around zalinski that, you know, people want a greater cause, it's really very much like the sopranos. okay. i mean, i'm going to get my cut me, i've cut this guy out and you know, and if the, because there's a bundle of money constantly coming in, people are seeing it. and i tend to think, and this is one of the reasons why i think that the kind of criminal mindset of the lensky regime is that they know this thing is going to be up later. it's going to be a month, a few months a year. but they want their cut before it's cut off. ok. and in the tank story kind of covered no kind of push the, the corruption thing. nobody really wants to talk about it though, right. but the day before, the special military operation, ukraine's the correct country. that's what most people knew. now it was seen over the last 11 months. how narrative's getting easily changed. martin. yeah, they do a new change. but i think the corruption story is as funny writ this,

this thing about this purge of getting rid of these so called corrupt officials. zalinski did, he did it immediately a few weeks after coming back from america, where he went with the begging bull to pull a blind to and get a republicans to sign off the deal in congress to, you know, unless something like 25000000000 in millichef alone so, i mean, that's really what it was all about, but let's not forget for ukraine's one of them as grew up countries in the world. and, you know, this time story may, will be part of that. you know, it'll be interesting to see, you know, how the pentagon keeps the straight face. my own government keeps a straight face and says, journalist, we can't track these tanks. we don't have the technology, we come put tunnel chips in them and, and check them. they're actually in ukraine b. s. why don't we do try bones? they can do it with a tang roughly, they do trucks don't, but they don't want people to know that because if we, if the general public say well ok, you're tracking them. can you show us on the internet where they are, you know,

can you confirm at least that they're in ukraine? that's the issue. so corruption on both sides is a really big issue. you know, but we should never forget. i'm always talking about the bigger war on the show was talking about the war beyond the crime. we haven't talked about that today, but that, you know, africa. i said to you on december 28th look at the african countries and look how many of falling no longer becoming no longer staying as french vessels, you know, becoming now part of the russian sold. i said to me some attempts at 28. what became fessor is warbling, just like molly fell august last year, because the 1st is about to fall is kicked out already the french military. i think that will be africa will be a story which we should follow because more of these countries are falling. now, in line with either being non aligned or go into full 9 yards and becoming part of russia's influence in the region and, and signing up the bricks. so, you know, let's not focus the stop says too much about tanks. tanks may well and blow up in

the face of the west, you know, figured upon. i mean, i'm expecting that already. but some, you know, how far can they go really? i mean, i think, i think a lot has been made of the story and the chairman press now we're having a field day was, was this particular minister, but i see more division and i see the time story as a really, as a rod for the western back, unfortunately, gentlemen who have run out of time, you know, when i think my guess in america and here in moscow and when i think our viewers are watching us here at ortiz, see you next time, remember? ah, ah, ah .

ah, i think ukraine mm. does exist, should exist, and it is precisely the best option i suspect for its future is to find that amalgam of the cultures that are within it and turn it into something unique and flourishing. that that would define it in distinction but not conflict, but simply the difference between itself and its neighbors. mm hm.

ah ah, from being a set posted malignant influence in the middle east to fueling the ukraine crisis to run, find itself, blame for stirring up trouble across the world. at least according to the u. s. secretary of state and is really prime minister who've been holding talks in israel will not kelton's in the wake about drew an attack in around around the house, reportedly summoned a ukrainian diploma for questioning out for a top official said on the attack on my country is expected them, it plays it's supporting rushes military also i had on the phone for the countries. right. we expect them not to interfere in the bilateral relations between pakistan and russia back it sounds.