so the peruvian capital ton violent as the countries congress rejects a bit to hold staff elections. quote, not one more dead. that's the banner message is demonstrate is marked in peru outraged. off to 48 people have died across the country in a weeks of bodily protest. if cooled for the president's resignation, congress to be dissolved and new elections to be staged. a police use t guests in attempts to disperse the crowds. this comes as the peruvian congress rejected a bid for the 3rd time in a week put to put forward a 2026 election some later this year. the unrest has broken out off the former president petro castillo, was impeached over corruption. allegation what? that story continues online right now at r t dot com. the meantime for me, rural re sushi, the news team here. thank you so much for joining us. union o'neill at this desk in half an hour's time taking you into the evening. i was here in the city that members,

ah, [000:00:00;00] with ah, what do you do if you want to blow the whistle on waste, fraud, abuse, or illegality? but you know that if you do, your life will change forever. what do you do if blowing the whistle might put you in physical danger? or what if blowing the whistle might land you in prison? you try to do it anonymously. sometimes that works. the whistleblowers who brought us to panama papers, for example, are still unknown,

but others who tried to remain anonymous like drone whistleblower daniel hale and an essay whistleblower reality winner had their anonymity compromise, and they both ended up in prison. and john kerry aku you're watching the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 blowing the whistle on waste fraud abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety is something that every country should celebrate. many countries have some sort of whistleblower protection law even in national security. but those laws are rarely enforced fairly or equally. sometimes they are ignored altogether, and sometimes national security trumps whistle blowing. even when the whistleblower is exposing a crime, were joined by an attorney who is not only a hero to national security whistleblowers here in the united states. but she's a whistleblower herself. she tried to remain anonymous and she was out it,

and her life has never been the same. welcome to show just one rate act. thank you john. jesse, you were a senior attorney at the u. s. department of justice working in legal ethics. your job was to make sure that the justice department's attorneys acted within the law and within the guidelines of professional responsibility. but then the september 11th attacks occurred and many people in government decided that day that the rules would go out the window. you were not one of those people. soon after those attacks, you found yourself involved in the case of john walker lynde, who became known as the american taliban. and it was soon after that that you became a whistleblower. tell us how that happened. it happened because i was in the ethics office and part of my job was to give advice to attorneys prospectively. and that included not just attorneys, but f b i. agents on the ground and we got the news that they had captured a terrorist. and that he happened to be american. so,

commensurate with any advice that would give anyone in that situation, i said that they should mirandize him. and that apparently at that point their picture circulating around the world of him being tortured of him naked, blindfolded, bound, gagged. and, and held in basically a coffin, and i advised that we don't torture people and that those images are unacceptable. and certainly any information they obtain as a result of him being kept in, that kind of captivity would not be in miscible in court. so that was the advice i gave. i gave that in writing. put, i got a call back. that was on a friday. i got a call back on monday saying hoops. well, you know, we went ahead and, oh, boy interrogated him. anyway. what do we do now?

and i explained, you know, not to worry, you can still use that information for national security and intelligence gathering purposes, but not for criminal prosecution. then they shortly thereafter used it for exactly that to criminally. prosecute him that you i found out about inadvertently when i learned that there was a discovery order for all internal justice department correspondence related. ready to john walker lynde. so i went to check the file because back then we had paper files. and the advice i had given was missing from the file. right. i happen to be apparently more computer savvy than some of my superior. so

i went and called tech support and was able to go through the computer archives the internet at this point. we're talking 2000. 1 is a new thing that's right. especially for the government, which is behind the 8 ball lawn technology. so i was able to resurrect the missing email and provided to my boss. and i said, i don't know why this was not turned over in discovery, but here it is. and then what happened? because you ended up, you ended up being in touch with quite a prominent journalist, and that's really where your problems began. that's correct. basically, when i learned that the document had still not been turned over to the court, i ended up resigning and i took home a copy of the document in case it disappeared from the file again. and when the government was continuing to pursue this case,

and it was evident that this information had not been turned over consistent with brady and gay cleo obligations, i ended up sharing it with a member of the press. i tried to do so anonymously. i think this was so blurs blew the whistle anonymously because it's not about them. they want people to focus on what they're blowing the whistle lot, not on them. unfortunately, because it was the beginning of the internet edge, while newsweek shield to my name from the print edition, my name appeared in the digital version. and that was the beginning of the unleashing of one of the 1st criminal leak investigations of modern time. when you were outed as the source, in this case, your life changed. you were forced to leave a job that you loved. many of your colleagues and friends turned against you and you had trouble finding work here you were

a renowned attorney. you had graduated from brown in yale universities to the top schools in the world. and you were having trouble finding a job. you finally found one at a large law firm in washington, dc. but it didn't last long. what happened there? at that point, the government contacted my private 3rd party employer and told them that they had just hired a criminal. so i had not been charged with anything. i had not received the subject or target letter. my so i, the law firm of course, knew that i would have a claim against them if they just fired me, especially for being a whistleblower. so they put me on unpaid administrative leave, which left me kind of hanging in limbo for a number of months. and in the meantime, i had to lawyer up and get a criminal defense attorney, an employment attorney, and a constitutional law attorney. i gosh. and then follow out,

continued actually you had trouble when you traveled internationally. complaints against you were lodged with the local bar association, but you ended up taking the bull by the horns and you went to work with the government accountability project as their director of national security, representing whistleblowers in national security. in fact, i'm proud to say that you were one of my attorneys, and you represented also an essay whistleblower tom drake and even ed snowdon, what made you decide to take on the national security establishment? my experience of how i was treated as a whistleblower. i thought if they can come down with the full force of the entire executive branch on a public servant who had been a public servant for a long time because they were just doing their job and trying to do it. honestly, it made me, i didn't know what it was. so blower was i had the same reaction. most whistleblowers do when my attorney said, you're a whistleblower. so no, i'm not. i was just trying to do my job,

right. but after what i went through the fact that the government ended up putting me under a criminal investigation and referring me to the state pars and literally started a whisper campaign in my law firm, which ended up somehow following me even to my own synagogue. i realized how draconian the government can be, how, how brutal and underhanded, but also completely over the top. i was a mom. i had 2 young kids. i was pregnant during part of this ordeal. i mean, it's no public servant, no human period to serve criminal defendants often have more rights than whistleblowers and they never charged with a crime if they were charged me with the crime. and in fact, the bar complaints,

it took 12 years before those charges were finally dismissed by the bar. but it was a cloud. it's his right of damocles hanging over your head to have to tell any potential employer. yeah, i've been referred to the bar, but based on a secret report that i've never seen and don't have access to, you know, had something called the whistleblower and source protection group. it's a part of expose facts. tell us about the kind of work that you do there. we represent national security and intelligence whistleblower hers mainly blowing the whistle on human rights violations. so that can include the gamut of torture, secret surveillance drone killings. and that's been an entire kind of boutique that we focused on. we want to protect disclosure, his that are in the public interest. and unfortunately, the trend that started during your era of using the espionage actually just an

incredibly draconian law to go after whistleblowers has unfortunately become normalized and been used primarily on whistleblowers from f b i the c i c i a and say that the power house agencies that run this. ready countries most significant programs and in fact sentences have been getting noticeably longer. have they not, they have they have reality winners. sentence of about 5 years was twice twice the normal, 2 and a half years that people had been, had been given. and daniel hale, even his sentence of 45 months. i mean that was for one count, one count under the espionage act. so the sentences, i mean that's part of the reason they use the espionage act because it is so punitive. and one count can carry, you know,

10 years. so we're going to talk about daniel hale again in a minute. but before we get a break, i wanted to ask you one other question. one of the things that i've noticed that they've been doing with whistleblowers is putting them in higher and higher security prisons. stephen kim, the state department whistleblower was in a minimum security work camp. i was in a low security prison. but daniel hale is in a maximum security penitentiary, is that just just because they can, is that just to make the time that people like daniel hill are serving as difficult as possible. it is unclear why daniel hill is in communications management unit because there are only 2 in the country and they were created to house terrorists. and daniel had no prior criminal history. he was not convicted or charged with an active terrorism. it is unclear how

or why he ended up there, but it was alarming certainly to us as his attorneys, because his judge had recommended a specific prison that would have been much lower security and where he could've gotten that therapy that he needed. right. it's not just that he drives over to prison and turns on the tv and makes himself comfortable. he was do psychological counseling, drug and alcohol counseling, which would have shortened his sentence. thank you. jasmine rate act, but don't go away. we're going to continue our conversation with gentlemen react right after this short break. stay to the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah ah,

with by the middle of the 19th century, practically the whole of india had been under the rule of the british empire. the colonial authorities had imposed that heavy death bringing the people into poverty and were exporting natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the traditions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect even to those who cooperated with them. the fact of ignoring the religious beliefs of the hindus led to the mutiny of the sea boys, mercenary soldiers serving under the british crown. rebellion began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river, north of india. in the form of a mutiny. the rebels quickly took over daily. the heroic resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however,

the forces were not equal to the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels cruelly . the slaves, the boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their bodies for the amusement of the public. these type of execution was called the devil's with the obliteration of the mutiny resulted in the death of 800000 inhabitants of india. however, the british empire never broke the free spirit of the indians and their will for resistance almost one year into the conflict. no major western leader is called for talks to bring peace to ukraine and europe. instead, we are witnessing dangerous escalation. the great tank debate has settled. will it be fighter? where does the said ah. 2 what them back to the whistleblowers rejoined once again by esteemed whistleblower

attorney jeslane rebec. jess, it seems like we've seen so many whistleblowers who have wanted to remain anonymous who've tried to remain anonymous, but their identities invariably are revealed. and the consequences have been drastic for many of them. the f. b i whistle blower, terry. all bery, for example, received 4 years in prison. drone whistleblower daniel hale. we mentioned a moment ago received 3 years and 9 months. an essay whistleblower reality winner received more than 5 years in prison. ca whistleblower joshua shulty faces as much as 80 years in prison. is there a safe way to blow the whistle? can somebody in national security do it without being caught? and then being sent to prison, it's incredibly difficult even when you go through proper channels, a lot of the people you mentioned did try to go through channels at one level or another. but even with successful whistleblowers, even like the white house whistle blower on trump,

they still went through the proper channels and still got tangled up in internal channels. i mean, is there a safe way in theory? there is in practice. there are a lot more ways to leak these days, but there are a lot more ways to get caught and whistle blowers are not. you're not assume to be expert at spy craft and keeping your contact with the reporter. secret that's really incumbent upon journalists, especially the ones that hold themselves out as being all about source protection and basic mistakes were made in number. the cases you mentioned, whether the journalists was just being careless or whether there was a snafu in the way a document got transmitted. it's very easy to get caught these days. it's almost like we're back to the days of meeting in the underground parking garage where you meet in person paying cash, you know,

and try to do it very out of the sight of cameras, but their cameras everywhere, including and parking lot. it's true and an ongoing theme too, especially with national security whistleblowers is that identifying information is almost always embedded in documents. so if you work for one of the national security agencies and you print a document, your name and your personnel number are embedded somewhere on that document in a period in the door of an eye. and so if the document finds its way to the media, and then the media sends it back to the agency to ask about whether or not it's a legitimate document. you've just coded yourself or the journalist has out to you, right? that's correct. a lot of people have been caught basically by measure of data. so not the actual document itself, but something like you said, a marking on the document, a watermark,

or something that's in perceptible to most people. like in reality winters case, instead of showing a xerox copy of a document to the government, they showed the actual document. so they could immediately identify where she the, they are for space where she this it occurred and immediately it, it was a bright red arrow pointing to her jeff sterling. that was another case based on meta data. i think it's easy now it's very hard not to leave digital footprints even when you're using encryption. i would advise any whistleblower to use signal or to get well versed in encryption. but what you can expect a whistleblower to, to have to be well versed in security protocol to be able to get the truth out. and you've reason important point to people asked me all the time. should i be using signal? should i be using what's up or viber? i've always been told that signal is the best,

but signals not perfect either tom drake. the say was the blower told me recently that even with signal they can intercept the message before you hit send. they can intercept it as you're typing it because it's not yet encrypted, it only becomes encrypted when you send, when you hit that send button, that's exactly right. that end points are dangerous points. it may and again, it's people think that it's the content of messages that ends up basically pointing a finger at the whistleblower. but it's not, it's the who's sending it who's receiving it. and when that's, that is getting people convicted, not the content of what they're actually saying, just we've seen whistleblowers in banking or in the legal profession who have been able to maintain their anonymity. i mentioned the panama papers whistleblower earlier in the show. they were very careful where they sent their information. the outlets involved protected their identities,

but that hasn't been the case for national security whistleblowers. why do you think that is our counter intelligence agencies really? that good? i think in panama papers, other cases that have more been international dimension, it's probably easier because to not be living in a surveillance state, which if the united states has been trending again, people are being caught on metadata is some, it would be impossible for me to take the metro and come here without leaving a huge trail of metadata with buying a ticket. taking the exact train that i took care walking with the camera on every corner. so it's easier to get caught if you're in surveillance state that has so much monitoring going on. i think also traditionally people who are in the banking arena, including in the u. s. they have protections under dodd frank and the sarbanes

oxley act. and. and the false claims act and a whole bunch of other protections that national security and intelligence whistleblowers do not have in this country. there is a specific car out for national security and intelligence employees. so not only, i mean they, they have a statement in the i c, w, p, a saying that they're protected, but there's no enforcement mechanism, right? so you can blow the whistle, but then when the government retaliates against you and comes down on, you will like a ton of bricks. you have no recourse. there is nothing you can do. and in fact, they will now prosecute you. whereas before, you may have gotten an administrative wrist slap or fired, or even blackballed from the industry, now you will go to jail. when i was at the ca, i sat next to a woman who was having an affair with someone working for cnn, who had been a senior cia officer. and in the course of pillow talk,

she revealed some classified information to him. he used that classified information in his commentary on the air on cnn, and sure enough, the office of security didn't investigation. they immediately figured out that it was her, but they didn't arrest her. they didn't charge her with espionage. what they did is they suspended her without pay for 6 weeks. they put a letter in her personnel file and she was ineligible for promotion for, for a year. and that was it. now if that were to take place today, she would be charged with espionage and would be looking at at least 5 years in prison. that's correct. and then there are whole, there's a whole range of other subtle but career killing retaliatory mechanisms like taking away people, security clearances. so even if they're still free walking around, they can't find a job in the profession. they've been trained in because they can't get

a security clearance renewed. so there are the subtle ways and there is no way to contest that there is no way to say you're mistaken. this person is not a security risk. what they blew the whistle on was validated by congress and they still can't get your security clear. yes, you're exactly right. you mentioned metadata a moment ago. one of the things that i fear and tell me if this is a legitimate fear is that when the government or individual companies private companies like the big information companies, apple in google, and yahoo and whatnot. when they collect this metadata, they have the capacity to save it forever. is that correct? and then the f, b i or the cia or n s a can go back and draw this information whenever it suits them. that's my understanding. i mean that was an issue with the data retention facility in utah.

bill benny had talked about apple. i know you has actually pushed back and said you need a warrant if you want. but then if the government can get a warrant, they will turn over the data. other companies like spoken twitter, i am not sure the current policy that they have in place in terms of when they will turn over data or not. but i think people do not give it a 2nd thought when they're entering all their personal information, willy nilly interface book. you're making the government's case for them. it doesn't matter if you don't think you're doing anything wrong or you know, i'm not doing anything wrong. they wouldn't be interested in me, but it's awfully easy as you know, to construct a circumstantial case around things that actually were meant to be in the us. i actually said those words, they wouldn't be interested in me and they were very interested in me. you know, one of the questions that i'm asked very frequently is if i would do anything differently, if i were to blow the whistle again and my answer is the same every time the answers,

yes. what i would do differently is to hire an attorney before blowing the whistle . that was a mistake that i made because i was forced to be reactive rather than proactive. what advice would you give whistleblowers considering blowing the whistle? yeah, i would. that's exactly what i would tell them, talk to an attorney ahead of time so they can safely walk you through these land mines. also, you need to make a consider determination about whether or not to tell your family what you're doing and how much to tell them. i had not told my family at the time because i wanted them to have plausible deniability that they didn't know i was blowing the whistle . but at the same time that can end up causing a rift, went from the way you have f b i. agents working on your case. so there are a number of considerations i think it's always was to talk to an attorney. unfortunately, 90 percent of people come in my door, you know, or if they come in after the fact after they blew the whistle in,

they are being retaliated. yep. that is exactly what my situation was. that's how you and i met. that's all we have for you today. thanks to i guess jeff lynn rate act. i'm john curiosity and this has been the whistleblowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah,

ah do this for you, melissa, and his hopes, trammel and nickelodeon now, but miss martha told what to call you showed mister vondik, the dodger? nope. was low and red to a rush. yeah. them for it. and he always, you know, it's in that man. somebody wants to someone like which is sort of a middle kenesaw policeman, us last list on the kid to look up the doors. yeah. and your head in your see. yeah, no more so than glad to see more styling a la carte. you'll be blacked dyslexia, i still didn't want to watch them loud enough where you'll be put them that you're not that i'm not said i would show you that you know nice. he's going to learn us languishing cargo slip. we'll get to choose who top corner is mark floor,

but as to where it is ah ah, the local authorities say russian troops of in circle the ukrainian health city of r. kim, off in the done yes. republic that comes just a day after rushes, military cut off a major supply route for key ebs forces also head on the program. today pakistan's national currency plummets to a historic load against the u. s. dollars the i m f. demands the removal of exchange rate of control and says pakistan the pay higher taxes, we hear from local to say the u. n's. financial agency is making knowledge work