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hello and welcome to crosstalk, where all things are considered, i'm peter labelle for over a century and a half. the german question has been hotly debated during that time. germany was at the center of 2 world wars and the cold war. now it appears berlin and its abandoning its post hitler policy. positivism and non intervention, and again, russia is the enemy. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guests. matthew eric in montreal. he's a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada. in munich, we have ralph new meyer. he is chairman of the council for constitution and sovereignty. and in belgrade we have stephen guides. he is a research associate at belgrade institute for european studies. are a gentleman cross type roles, and in fact, that means he can jump in anytime you want. and i would appreciate it. let's go the route, the 1st. rather my introduction. i didn't,

i don't want to be too extreme here, but it seems there's a major shift going on in german foreign policy since the end of the cold war. and the, the pinnacle i think the most well known foreign policy trajectory of germany in the postwar years was os poet teak specifically, which is meaning basically essentially having some form of reconciliation with the soviet union. then later russia that appears now to be completely off the agenda since the foreign minister of germany better. bob says that we are in war with russia. thoughts? yeah, it is terrible. what they are saying and also doing by committing to sent arms into a conflict. it is actually a departure as you just said. it's a departure from a post $945.00 agreement with the word we as a always

a banging on it's we are not fully supper. and so i'm in the u. s. americans are still very active in rumson air base and they do tell us what they want from us actually. so it's not entirely be determined decision, but i agree with you. it's a break with our post world war 2 position in this. and i'm definitely opposing that to as many other drama do. i mean, we want to have peace with everyone and that stuff so clear. you ostrom, population, 80 or 90 percent, would really say no, we don't want to have annual with nobody. ok, we may want to defend 2 will right here and there. that's what we have done. and somalia and other places in molly at least that's what we were being joke. but, but to go to ukraine and send arms into a conflict and have the conflict with the russian federation. the majority of drugs was and not what was it go to bell based steven?

it's, it's, you know, it to make it the of the point even more clear when the unification of germany was happening in the, in the soviet union under but of a child who gave it a green light, was surprised a lot of people because they were reservations in western europe, not in the east year, but there was a declaration of a united germany that germany would be a force for peace in stability. it seems to me that they have walked away from that . okay. and then when we hear the german chancellor talk about re militarization, a lot of people in the east are wondering what did we agree to, or the real universe asian of germany. go ahead your thoughts. unfortunately, even during these 1st years, also the cold war during health call and mr. gasha, germany did the stabilize the east of europe. unfortunately, by recognizing the at the time legal, national, florine,

and creation from florida. and i think that opened the door as box as far as for the german stance. it is becoming more and more clear to everyone. everybody what was clear, baby to certain people that were cold lunatics and that germany isn't occupied country. that basically the 4 occupations dissolves, i've actually turned into 2 of your patients, all these there in western germany and then what happened with the fall of the berlin wall, a whole germany was occupied by the americans. and now we see that because i just want to remind you what i mentioned this, this name so many times i think i should get a scholarship produced guy or something. dollars, friedman because he said repeatedly in 2014 and 15 that the americans wants what the germans don't want. they want to that for the germans to get armed, turn their peaceful industry into military industry and go to the east and what he

explicitly sat in belgrade until 41. if i was a german, i would never want that for my country, but i'm american. and the geopolitical goals of the united states are similar to those of great britain in the past. it is to confront the 2 most logical allies, which is germany and russia. and then again, what happened with the, with the north stream? i mean, i hear this, this really loud silence from berlin. nobody is asking about the serious investigation. while before this happened we've, he, we heard both the door panel and, and president by himself saying that was they were the 1st thing that they will do troy the north theme. now it is destroyed and nobody's talking about it anymore. yeah. yeah. now matthew, in my 1st questions are out here, i talked about june and german unification. and the deal was we know this from the documents. is that okay? a united germany will be part of nature, but not a one step further to the east. but it's really quite interesting is that the

german question is, is again, confronting us because that was the 1st nato expansion was the unification of germany. that said the precedent to keep moving further east. go ahead, matthew. know that that's absolutely right. and that that was, i think in many ways as the idea of the pandora's box was already brought up. certainly the path towards our own, an elite or germany, germany's sacrifice and annihilation ultimately. and i think that germany is, and many germans and many politicians, though they're not loud enough, are beginning to speak up about the fact that they recognize that they're being served as sacrificial tools in any ways. very similar to the type of approach that was seen taken it, leading up to world war 2. when of course, you know, looking at b, b can hidden, hidden history of world war 2, we find the hand of anglo and american industrialists banking behind the

growth of the hitler machine. originally the design was to just go straight on, destroy russia, and have them destroyed each other. but ultimately that was not what hitler did. he did other things instead and broke from the script. that being said, he was still being manipulated by foreign forces. it wasn't a sovereign entity and just like today it's not a sovereign entity. and it's part of a broader a program that involves the rehabilitation of nazi up nazi history, pro nazi history that tries to paint russia the point of that point. it's very interesting. me go to ralph here because, you know, we have, you know, you have an elite, a better bach who is the most militaristic and aggressive foreign minister since ripping trop. okay. and what had missed, who brought this up yet? because the, the, the, the supporting of the ukraine in the whole fake tank debate is that it's supporting the regime in care of that has nazi and near neo nazi fascist stick elements to it . this is well, no, this is not a hidden history here. this is

a bad look for germany. okay. considering what happened in the middle of the last century ro? yes, exactly. peter and i agree with everyone here on this. what has been said now germany has broken the cease fire of 9th of may 945. because to the, to plus for tree. the order was called the, the treaty of settlement for germany. it's not a peace treaty. so we are still stuck with the potsdam agreement from 1945, which is actually just a cease fire agreement. and we have never had our full server entity since that time. so what is now happening? i mean the end of 2 plus the foreign trade from $990.00, allowing us to be unified. we promise that the united germany would only have peace come from its solder. and it's very strict under article 5 of the nato

treaty that we can only participate in military actual defend lay to a territory which ukraine certainly has not yet. i say yet at this stage. and also we are bound by the 2 plus for treaty under international people's law that we only use our military according to the un charter chapter 7. which did allow us to go to places where it was a un resolution. but for instance, and the cause of all war, it was already not. so because a war has had no un mandate, no resolution by the un security council. so here we go, we have broken it now. a 2nd time after 1945 that we are becoming party in an armed conflict. and when people are due in my country that this is not that we are not

a party to the war. because we only send arms and educate soldiers. no, no, it is, and that is prohibited. what with germany is being set up to go to our guest in belgrade. stephen is that, you know, fighting to fighting russia to the last ukrainian or they throwing in the germans now or the germans. also, you know, the 2nd tier because you know, what is the downside for the united states and all of this very, very good. okay, actually this is accomplished down the cheap the way when you in the, in the broad scheme of things here is a sacrifice ukraine, divide, russia and, and the germans are, are, are volunteering right behind me, ukrainians here. go ahead bel, good. actually i think that also there is a broader plan to sacrifice all nate, nate, those eastern members, 1st, the baltic, strict states. unfortunately, many people are eager to go to war with russia. their laura, i don't know. this is,

this is really very my friends. i lived in poland for 10 years, i under the snow and the mind said, but i recognize that keep go actually, that is well being. and another thing i have done, lena benefit was mentioned here because the greens have something about going into into, into war you know, into war adventures because it was the oscar fisher in 1999 from the green bart, the leader at the time who was the strongest advocate of bombing of the nato, russia against serbia, montenegro or u. e. federal republic of yugoslavia, as it was called back then i also would like to remind her to remind you that actually the recommend everybody. there is a wonderful book and a movie. it is golden german. see that the look was back and it is about cooper waking up in 2014 in the middle of berlin film. some is brilliant, but what he wanted wanted. so he says that he doesn't like the a of the,

he does like the neo nazis. he's 0 amateur is the only party that you respect are the greens for i i father the all there probably new solving in love. so now when we hear of a better thing that we are in war now that the greens are actually the greatest advocates of coal mining, they forgot about glass on all the agenda for 2 years ago. we can see why the older of the film really had this in mind. well, it, it's, it's very interesting because it's the most hypocritical party in the world, maybe right after the democratic party in the united states here. but i mean, after, after decades of anti war, i remembered in the 1980s, i mean now with their signature building. okay. and, and then once i go into power, there, a whole green agenda seems to go to the wayside here. it's really quite remarkable, gentlemen, i have to jump in here. we're going to go to

a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on germany state with r t i ah watch and it was a shag now shorter one. and i'm not trying to stay like a national z. m a y. when you sit down with

ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a lot to future generations. but our physical museum spaces themselves, a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world or from a touch and st. petersburg to help refuse the director here and i bet he has met. welcome back across the top where all things are considered, i'm peter labelle. this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing some real lives. ah right, let's go back to our one trail, matthew, what is the issue of sovereignty here? because, you know, we're an elite, a better boss. the 3rd time she's been mentioned in our gathering here, mean, she seems to be the perfect creature of washington. i mean, she's famously said just recently, she doesn't care what her voters think about,

you know, ukraine. she's going to decide herself here. i mean, obviously the social democrats, the united states, been anglo powers of never like social democrats in, in germany. they don't like us polity. but emily to bear boss is the perfect trojan horse for them. ok. and remarkably, she's in the green party here. and she seems very. busy comfortable of having sovereign choices, we're a country made by others, your thoughts? yeah, no, i think the, the croatian president, need a very strong counseling. said i, i heard very announcing that we're all at ward or that germany wants to go towards russia. well, good luck on that. it didn't look good the 1st time around. i hope it works out better, but it doesn't look good. and i think that overall, what is happening, if anything, on a positive side is that the population is being pushed to the brink. right? now where we need more of an activist poppy relation,

more of an activist participation or intervention within the business and military community of people who rock, who recognize that they're about to not only repeat history but now with nuclear weapons packed into the formula. so we have people like sarah wagner, we've been doing some very interesting things and attracting a lot of support from both the right in the left alike. people who had normally never get together and have any common agreements on any single points but are but are in a chord that there isn't no voice. it is a vacuum of leadership con for peace, and she's doing it and call calling for potentially setting up a new party around this idea as well. so for the delay, a party who's been the only one to speak up against this war policy. but i think that this whole idea of, of having a disdain for populism makes bareback really a gym, a wet dream of a gym, for technocratic managers who love to have the little detached him compassionate free puppets who are. busy so ideologically committed to

a certain world view that they can't see, don't care about the pain that they're doing to real people. you're bringing up a really good point. and then let me go to run back to ralph. here you're, you're in germany. you're in munich. we hear the german chance are talking about a form of bree, militarization, but his government keeps up happy. going over its own red lines, obviously in service of london in washington here. but i mean, this re militarism what, you know, german people want to go into the a new better mark. i mean, is that, does that exist? because one of the things, a speech that the champs are made recently, which got almost no coverage at all. but, you know, expanding nature of the, to the life with mal dover in our menia. presumably both would be the troops because the friends don't want to get in the military. they italians doubt the germans, delta spaniards though the portuguese, the. but maybe we get these,

well don't going to do. it bores very much like ukraine is taken on the market position of, you know, we're going to die for nato. ok, i mean i, you know, i can hear the rhetoric and i see the pressure from washington. but i mean, are there going to be hundreds of thousands of young german men and women that want to join the military? now definitely not. and i must say it also would be absolutely illegal to, to do so. i mean, we have article 26 of our basic law, which is the poster 945 constitution that prohibits us to, to go into any war and to, to participate. and in any war without defending own territory or nature territory . but of course, that you mentioned that we have nato expand again into territories that far beyond that. and of course you would press and who would go there and actually fight fight

for, for the course. but i don't see in germany any mood to go to war. i mean, does well do opinion polls always say 46 to 42 percent in favor or not in favor of sending some arms or helmets to your great know the tanks. it's already 48 percent to say no to that. so we are getting closer and closer. the probably even more people would say when it comes to fido jeff stuffs, the next step of escalation, that probably 6070 percent will immediately say no. that would refute that at the moment. it's not a talk route. i mean, the tell me and my guess and my audience here, just public opinion count in germany. no, it doesn't really. and that's the problem. that's why and banging on it turned out to speeches that i'm giving here in germany. and i draw more and more support as, as it was just said that sarah barton connect, she's also doing that. you know,

we are the new piece movement now. and we attract more and more people from the center of politics. and rather not only di, using fringes of the far left and, and too far, right? no, it is coming to the normal people industry to say, no, we don't want to have. and it works especially not with russia because i mean people know what it would mean and we, we don't want that. and i said recently and his speech, i said, trans flush, all shirts than in front of us and tell us about the consequences of what he's doing there. and if he's been carried again over a red tape that the mainstream media put out for him, do to say yes to fighter jet. he should explain to us that yes, this could mean also bumping of parts of germany. and that is the result that we don't want to see. yeah, and i made the stephen, you know, we go what all the way back to january of last year. did you have any idea that

we'd be talking about this, you know, 1011 months later talking about, you know, a people preparing for the possibility of accomplish a, a nato, russia conflict? did that ever enter your mind 11 months ago? actually, it kind of did, i must have you ever since 2014, if not even ever since 2800 dollars in conflict we've been. we've seen this poker game while the west is constantly raising the stakes while russia falling. maybe this is actually quite risky from the russian side because it was never proactive. it was actually even february 22. although this might sound crazy, was a reaction because there was a build up in that and he certainly the ukraine. there was a gratian prime minister on the blank, which was so many times that they want to share their experience. all basically, it's about expelling serbs from today's grace from from republic subscribing up in

95. ah, it was repeatedly sad and they were giving practical knowledge to ukrainian how to do that with don boss. and once russia, i mean russia bad at b r, that blood spaces was russia made them move into the, in, in february that all how broke out as if this came out of nowhere really, but going back to germany, i think that now one going to washington are trying to compensate some of the foreign policy. they're trying to give germany some kind of a small reward. and this is the the german behavior, the germ of germany, frank behavior in the balkans. now fred ross in germany came with the so called plan for gospel, which basically says the serbia should recognize the legal session of also m and thought here and all, by the way say, you know, no, do it's closest ally of the security council,

which is russia by imposing sanctions against russia. so again, germany is used as a tool not of its own foreign policy but of american foreign policy. while it is supposed to think that it is pro active in the balkans, if it is not proactive in, in, in the east. while it is possibly being bullied natalie by washington, london, but also back here in war. so, and even the baltic states. so this is really a very sorry scenario in which made so let's face it landed in washington, are re occupying europe. and not only was through europe or because western europe is doing this. reluctantly, i'm talking about barrison and berlin. while eastern europe like move walkers are going into, into the fire. when the new axis is washington, london, you're. it's that they get it. it's a wash, it didn't london, warsaw that said here, matthew, be me the i find it so disappointing,

but i fully expected it is that we have these leads and this is obviously an elite agenda. how it doesn't have popular deep popular support. but they're, they're looking at big 3 defeat, they're looking at as a binary. and i want to go back to something that, that ralph was saying, but they don't want peace. see, they want a military outcome. but if you were approach it discursive way in a very how did, how can we get peace then that goes back to what the russians propose december 2021 is saying, we need a new european security architecture. and that is, i have very bad german for bowden. go ahead, man. no, absolutely. and we that, that is absolutely what is needed in a, it is in my, in my mind, it kindles the memory of the report of hordes that were nic negotiated by vaulted up and how 922 after world war 2. in response to the impossibility of paying the

draconian or the the impossible oversight debt repayments and happened how had very good relations with a network of diplomats within russia. the newly formed bolshevik russia that recognized, okay, we all lead industrialization. we only growth of development need when, when the language of the text is very strong, you are the american president at the time of an enemy of the league of nations who was sabotaging that 1st attempt at a one world government. warren harding, who later died of oysters, also making short to settle bilateral treaties with russia, with russia, with germany, with austria. so you had a whole network of pro industrialist pro nationalist leaders of century ago. recent resisting this idea of a great reset of world civilization around this whole, you know, london centered league of nations operation, which were, i mean i see a lot of parallels to what's being done today. and i think that anatolia added fog me the point that the real issue at stake right now is the fight over the multi polar organ system,

which is coming online very quickly in germany being one of the only via one of the most bible units in europe that has a productive middle shot and a capacity to contribute actual works of productivity construction, bridge building between east and west and north. that goes back to the of the, in the german question here. ralph, we're almost out of time is the adage, keep the russians out, the germans down, and the americans in this is that, is that the modus operandi? a 2015 seconds. go ahead. now i do believe that, and you saw that with the bombing of the pipeline that they can dictate to us how did one that i was into chancellor's office a week before the bombing of the pipeline said, please sign the monster into agreement. if you don't do it, i do it, he didn't do it and then they bonded. so someone must have run up washington and say we got a problem here and we have to get rid of that. that's the way it goes. and the, and the rest is history, but of course it's one of those things that we will never know because the people

in power don't want any of us to know. that's all the time we have. i want to think my gets in montreal music and in belgrade and i think our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. remember cross topples the the you, when the deal is to look into the teams, would you be available most of your local conditions and certainly

w my children and i want them to push on a no i did with the course when you put a block that is it a voicemail, but i am in the book on the disclosures now. i just am with

ah, a public health priority say russian troops have nearly and i called the ukranian health town, a vocal adult and they never knew defensive in go u. s. secretary of state blinker counsel this visit to beijing, following hysteria in american media, it caused by a chinese weather balloon swaying into us as a leak documents clay. my british intelligence project spied on palestinian refugee using us previously alleged to have provided funds to help with.