for the masses. well, thank you very much and i have to say, i'm the university of rhetoric, even though i'm based in johannesburg. i think the last visit and the whole ukraine issue has divided opinion in south africa generally. i think it's also important to note that among the ruling africa, national congress leads many of what educated and received military training in the soviet union at the time. and there is a lot of empathy all russia generally and the way at the time. but typically the us brits under reagan gotcha was supporting the regime against which the n c was fighting. so those dynamics quite important to understand in south africa position. and i think,

i don't think it's clear as a lead on my day bytes, because among many of the black l. e, i talk to they may not necessarily support the russian aggression. they gave ukraine box. they tend to be very critical of what they see as what them the actions lightly us and them and iraq, which was done without us. all right, nation. so they divide, it's not straightforward. rusher was, doesn't, it wasn't even an aggression compares it to, i don't know was tanza near going into you gander in 978 and aggression. you don't also believe that nato mainstream media is running the story. non stop russia is starving africa. i know lover of coven nato countries to allow for allies to be given to africa from russia. i know it's not perhaps being starved, a weapons leaking out,

perhaps from the grain conflict into islam as groups as of from previous was, is russia solving africa? i don't put it crudely as that, but we are lee the conflict and i do see it. i actually as a, as an aggression by the way, i said just of the, the us intervention in iraq as of aggression. and i think both need to be con them, that's the way that the alignment is meant to work both. i think they're different and may be for a pool crisis. how about africa? the kobe crisis was one. the crisis is that, and i think that a lot of the boom and grains that africa is getting it from russia and ukraine of definitely also accept that a, that, that issue. but i wouldn't put it crudely as russia in africa. actually,

just on the aggression point, we are addressing a un secretary general of the subject of your book. i mean, you saying you see it as aggressive. so you'd see the invasion of france by the allies in 1943 as an act of aggression as well. but the problem was actually attacked by non gen the, well, it was a visa, vc, france, they, there was a government in france was in the anyway, i don't want to do long into the idea of a grant because i think maybe we should focus maybe on our issues, but i don't think they have much the bait that nancy jim knew was the grass and the old rule. i think we can all agree with either we can all agree with that one. so why choose boutros boutros? god is the subject of the biography. i mean, he's no noted by some to be an apologist for french war crimes, of course, in what was rolling over to us israel priorities in

palestine. what, why did you choose boutros boutros gully look past reason is that out of the former, a un secretary general that we've had since the current one antonia perez. there has been no biography in english, on boutros, boutros scholarly. the only one has been by all my french diplomat by the. ready un and i thought there was a conscious erasure by some western scholars of drugs, galleys achievement ban brent court. i am also the lack of them myself. really interested in the most intellectually accomplished un secretary general on record. i mean book scholarly got his ph. d from the boy and brought it

published over a 100 scholarly articles, he wrote the book on the united nations in the arab language and was a very accomplished in the nice no law scholar before he came into office. he also was the 1st africa and i'm the arab united nations secretary general, of course. and he occupied the office as a really significant time when the cold war between russia us have thought after 4 to 5 years. and when you and peacekeeping was greatly expanded, and there was an opportunity to resolve some of the regional conflicts called by the. ready ready reminders, please and remind us what years he was there. he died in in 2016, but he was un secretary general between 9 and 9 to 2 on 9 tonight. thanks. so yugoslavia the sanctions on iraq and actually madeline albright. let's go straight

to that figure living. he's in your book. not a great friend, boutros boutros gully. people can watch the clip of madeline albright clinton's secretary of state, celebrating some people say, but suddenly arguing that the deaths of 500000 iraqi children are a price worth paying for us interests in the middle east. they didn't get on. no, not so madeline albright was with us the united nation. by the time that boutros, boutros golly, was there and she basically found him arrogant. she had found him dismissive of her own diplomatic intellectual skills. i'm blue cross was somebody who was it patricia and you know, hid it. he came from

a gives 200 families. his grandfather had been prime minister. egypt fascinated in 19, and he had to uncle school for a minute and he'd been devotee for a minute. so egypt for 14 years himself, he knew his was, and he came from a very slow lived family background and believed in noblesse or bleach the obligations of rank. and so he didn't really cow to madeline albright just because she was a us and believe that she almost seemed to think that because she was a representative of the us, whatever she had said was a lot. she didn't need to kind of combine the whole team members of the un security council. so it was clear that these 2 personalities will go to clash. and i think i love the final point that's important, is that the power of the un, thanks,

3 general, are very limited. and the big powers on the security council often say that there are expected 3 to a general. and the us full thought that boutros go, lee was to independent minded. i'm sure that they wanted him to be more compliant and to do what the u. s. wanted him to do. so those were really the clash. ready between the 2, i mean, clearly we invite antonia good terrace on who isn't african, or arab and will no doubt say, you know, what? pressures are there right now? you don't mention, i don't think the direct wiki, leak snowden allegations or revelations that the un secretary general coffee and then his successor, boutros boutros college success, was bug by the see, i am i 6, i don't know whether you found in your research where the boutros boutros galleys

office was bugged. but that you, do you do say that boutros boutros golly, or a religious man? you know, way. i don't want to say something on your point. boutros was religion growth, of course, what they call christian, which is that minority in egypt. and he wasn't, he didn't say himself, i was really particularly religious. and he was, he of course, went to church as a child and have some believe well, as he grew older, you seem to be more of an astro cost of tradition. what he did on the quote from the bible, and he did at least have respect all the call co, christie and religion. do you think if boutros boutros, god was still alive and the inspector general, he would have allowed it to pass that the european union equivalent to foreign

minister, joseph burrell, said, europe is a garden. most of the rest of the world is a jungle. something redolent or the kind of well, it's throughout your book, implicit, the racism against boutros, boutros girlie. europe is the garden. the rest of the world is a jungle. yes, there was a rabo unfortunate comment and you know, boutros golly, there's no soft pools. gladly knew his knew his intelligence and you know, it, he, he was even brave enough to tell the powerful western powers on the un security council that they were focusing on there. because that was a rich man's ball. and they were like in africa as open conflicts, and when he was why he was being given such a rough time by the british media over boston. he's there quite candidly because i

am the wog. so boutros garley, new race of them have the experience. and he was very outspoken about, that's why he didn't kind of hop on it because he relied also on his intellect. he knew about. ready was, you know, he could, he had code basically out of the, you know, also get by professor at a k at about joe, i'll stop you there. more from the author boutros boutros golly, after our profit prophesies of pharaoh and pope after this break. ah ah ah ah

ah ah hi, i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to plead with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. certainly why watch something that's so different. my little opinion that you won't get anywhere else, work of it please. did you have the state pharmacy? i weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead my change and whatever you do, don't watch my show. stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again,

you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change dwayne thing ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor at the k at about joe. the former director of the institute japan african thought and conversation at the university of johannesburg on yugoslavia. and it has to be said, i mean, obviously on iraq in those sanctions. some sector generals might have resigned over half a 1000000 debts in iraq. as regards the yugoslavia, i'm not sure whether you think that was aggression, nato bombing yugoslavia and destroying last her place completely white. why was he not more vocal in stopping up the breakup of yugoslavia, which nato went for time? and tim began during his tenure and that was the worst was in the 2nd world war. that was the beginning of things. maybe even the seeds of the grain will well,

you see, i mean my understanding of the yoga law was, is that these were woolfolk session. so you had a lot. ready basically, so cross muslim world or who are basically seek into cow, ethnically, peer territory want i think you cannot use, the west style is neglect on you caution and failure to intervene to way, sorry, i'm sorry. profess, i've what there are so many books and how about the war in yugoslavia? no, i'm chomsky who's been on this show in the past few weeks as written some of them this was nothing to do with ignorance of what was going on. this was a deliberate attempt to destroy the last bastion of something approaching anti neoliberalism in europe. it was something quite, quite different to that. let's get on to something nice about that. let me just

make your final point please. if i may, i wasn't trying to say they were ignorant about that because don't forget that france i'm britain had troops on the ground. i'm saying that they will be on do leave course year about stopping slower. so when will know who to track to say they started it hang on, the detract to say it was a deliberate attempt to call them you love you after the german recognition of correct you're in the 1st place. but anyway, i do want to get through and do you get a lot of politics? i would say that, you know, the leaders in belgrade certainly don't say that they will wall or this was a deliberate attempt by nature in washington and madeleine albright and others to, to call up because of it. interesting that you mentioned eritrea and ethiopia, and boutros. boutros got it because in the past few months, perhaps in bus year or so, some have accused nature nations of trying to drum up g grey, rebellion there against the peace process that is being successful between as

martin addis ababa. why was boutros boutros garley remarkably even handed, even as the nature nations were involved in, you know, some people call the live aid war desperately backing the war on eritrea from the then if you're a pin dictator, the civil boy, the d. o b, i have been going on for 30 years, as you know, since the 1991 when malice and his troops basically took over at it. and melanie was able to consolidate in hold on power and the war between yogi and there a trip. the border war that happened between the 2 broke out late that was blue, had left off by the time that that border war broke out. it was while coffee and

what the un secretary general. i mean, clearly. yeah. and, and he's not following the nato line on, on our address there in the book, given you a previous scholarly work. and i know this biography is a, is a scholarly, disinterested look at the form is actually general the united nations. it's clear that you damn him with brain praise when you talk about his betrayal of an online movement. time and time again, although you couch it in more nuanced prose. perhaps. why did he betrayed, why did he understand? he went to yugoslavia and in front of tito. so he did a good job is he attacked cuba over angola where of course, the seeds of and go this position today who knows we leverage visits still were sewn from havana. i think it's important. we put this in context because i was talking about is interaction with the number line book,

but not when he was un secretary general, but when he was dead for a minute of egypt. and what he was trying to do then was having that go see a b street day with israel, with the arrow was overwhelmingly rejected. it was trying to prevent egypt, isolation diplomatically, i'm otherwise at the non aligned. and i think sometimes that very closely. ready in the way he engaged with respect that leaders of them on the line movement like castro and others. and, you know, sometimes nearly lost support, but in the end, most members of the non aligned movement. so go ahead. oh, at least agreed not to expel egypt. as many of the arab radical

countries in the man had one sent to happen. would it made any difference if he'd been secretary general when nato destroyed africa's riches per capita, country libya and well, the opponents of the was a basically led up to the assassination and want to get f a you know, i think it's very important to recognise, as i said the at the very limited powers of the united nations secretary general. he's basically a servant of the security council and the powerful members, especially the permanent 5 vito world and powers who manipulate the professor. why? why then do they bug coffee and on the successor, we know that from the student snowed and had to run know of why bug is office if it has no power, no c, i a and i might come book an office to find out what is

been discuss in order to know what positions that they go on go on. iraq must be like important them being secretary general. well, it's important in so far as you deal with all the world leave as you know. so the a you office has also been to use the been bulked bugs have been found there as well. but i wouldn't say that the, the african union commission most package, but basically powerful, it's a matter of me formation. the position of african boss could be it could be, but i would argue that in practice, boudreaux often had to do things that he instinctively would not have had to do. he add to bouts of power. one of the things he complained about the most

while the sanctions are not just the rock bottom, libya and he wrote his memoir 9 tonight, denied after he left power after he left office. which really was this thing give indictment of the us in particular. and then he made very clear how unfair and one sided on balance. it found the western sang shows on both iraq and libya. so there were always you have to go there. i mean, most ordinary men and women around the world. if they find that what they're doing is somehow giving an imprimatur to the mass. murder of one colleague, let alone the killing wound to go displacing of tens of millions of men, women and children. they resign their position. so it being quite yeah, i would actually argue that it's a minority of people who are principled enough to raise high. and i think most

people make calculations that, you know, this is a benefit then level personally, all they make a calculation, i think scholarly did that even though some of these things be enough to do are all full. they're good things that i'm able to do in liberia, in serial liam in all the places to support regional peacekeepers who are trying to save lives and provide humanitarian relief to people in district professor. those are the kinds of calculations for me that were being made well, professor, you're clearly not making a calculation personally, when you advocate packs african and that's not going to get you invited to any i m f world bank conferences, just us. what is backs african and who do you believe we should watch out for who are going to be advocating this 21st century for africa, obviously now in the spotlight, partly because of the war in ukraine as new global lines is a forged packs,

africa is basically a concept that was up to 967 by one of my intellectual mental leg kenyon, academic, allen, missouri. and the basic idea is that outside of should stay out of contraband africa. i left africans were though vale and complex, and he explained that through the concept principal of continental jurisdiction, almost like a monroe doctrine, but africa. and he argued that through the principle of racial sovereignty, in africa, intervention by african states themselves in neighboring countries was more legitimate than those by outsiders. today is a bit like it afi, right? that's the same kind of thing that we advocated. dorothy was actually

inspired by cuomo chroma. so in terms of his foreign policy was in the air to kwan the crew back in trying to champion and they kind of kind of africa, security architecture. isn't there a problem? clearly there's a problem with anyone who advocates that who has power not in an academic way, not in any way by a politician. often they get killed. well i, you know, my view is really got out there wasn't killed, but champion in africa, they all get overthrown. new crew, me a new chrome. it didn't do well either nor did chrome, patrice, lemme yeah, that they actually got live. there has been a recent literature that shows that the i was involved. busy in getting rid of the crew, me and that's been very meticulously document that in

a book called white missed class recently just come out. but i would argue that dante was not necessarily a fascinated champion in africa, and he was assassinated, full of pose in west position and issues like locker b and the other issues from the past. i think that's okay, but we didn't groom our problem with yeah. you know, so i think would no more i think would be the closest to that because it was clear that belgian and the us in particular had their hand in getting rid of patrick lumber because. ready the, the radical nationalist so that in 1961. ready i concede that well after whom a university in moscow was named, patrice and

a member professor at a k, at about joe. thank you so much for joining us. that's in the show. we'll be back next saturday with the brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch by social media. if it's not sense that in your country, we can always had to our channel going underground tv on rumble dot com to watch. new and old episodes of going underground see very soon the the ah, talk about what issues just some good asked wolf, doable stuff toward coming up. your voice kickbusch from which mueller, which could allow what you see is not a strip of denial for your motive. a

choice talk a bit when you are a stick with the missed issue with jenny who should move you lou do do is just us mobile at the tone, please? yeah, it's no, it's no we do. but as little hulu, you can use the smart tv still to with the clear yes. i can. i does not with that slow on it from the

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with the food on medicine and supplies and freedom with awe, panic on social media. as unverified video footage appears to show an explosion over a u. s. city where a chinese surveillance balloon was previously spotted. the officials denied that any glass top and the g 7 nations impose a price cap on russian oil products to call moscow's revenue while president food and says the country simply will not export oil to states supporting the limitation and cutting off alternative voices. the use crackdown on media freedom forces are