director of the institute pan african thornton conversation at the university of john his work. he served on you and missions in south africa. he's also the author of the new book, boutros boutros golly, apropos prophet proselytize, a pharaoh and pope, one of the very few written works on the u. ends. first african arab 60 general, whose contributions he says had been raised by nature nation scholars professor at about your joins me now from johannesburg in south africa. thank you so much professor for joining us before we get to the book. i must ask, man, i should say a book about a un secretary general that wasn't assassinated. unlike dag hamish old famously, your view of oliver office visit to africa. i mean, in asia nation, media, i don't, i knew you were in nigeria at the time during the visit, but i mean, all but condemning as an african count about melody pander. oh, for joint russia, south africa, perhaps shine a military drills a, i suppose, as a class divided all the sorts of things elite in south africa, looking down at the government in south africa for doing anything with russia and

a different story for the masses. well, thank you very much and i have to say, i'm sorry, even though i'm based in johannesburg, i think a lot of growth visit and the whole ukraine issue has divided opinion in south africa. generally. i think it's also important to note that among the ruling african national, congress leads many of what educated received military training in the soviet union at the time. and they bought a lot of empathy for russia generally. and the way at the time, but big lead the us and britain under reagan was supporting the regime against which the n c was fighting. so those dynamics that quite important

to understand in south africa position. and i think, i don't think it's as clear as lead math, they bites because among many of the black l. e i talk to they may not necessarily support the russian aggression against ukraine box. they tend to be very critical of what they see as western hypocrisy. actions lightly us and them and they were up which was done without. ready un authorization, so they divide, it's not straightforward. rusher a course doesn't. it wasn't even in an aggression compares it to, i don't know was tanza near going into you gander in 978 and aggression. you don't also believe that nato mainstream media is running the story. non stop russia is starving africa. i know lover of coven nato countries to allow fertilizer to be

given to africa from russia. i know it's not perhaps being starved, a weapons leaking out, perhaps from the grain conflict into islam as groups as of from previous was, is russia solving africa? i don't put it crudely as that, but all the li, the conflict, and i do see it actually as a, as a back aggression, by the way, i said just of i see the us intervention in iraq as aggression. and i think both need to be con them, that's the way that alignment is meant to work both. i think they're different and may be trent pool crisis. have i think that africa, the kobe crisis was one. the crisis is that, and i think that a lot of the food and grain that africa is getting from russia and ukraine of

definitely also accept debate that, that issue. but i will do that the crudely as russia style in africa, actually just on the aggression point. and we are addressing a un secretary general of the subject of your book. i mean, you saying you see it is aggressive. so you'd see the invasion of france by the allies in 1943 as of acts of aggression as well. but france was actually attacked by non gen the. it was a veto v c. france. they, there was a government in france was in the anyway, i don't want to get too long into the idea of a grant because i think maybe we should focus maybe on our issues. but i don't think they watch the bait that nazi germany was the grass and the whole rule. i think we can all agree with either we can all agree with that one. so why choose boutros boutros scholarly as the subject of the biography? i mean, he's no noted by some to be an apologist for french war crimes. of course what was

rolling over to us israel priorities in palestine. what, why did you choose boutros boutros gully? good. the past reason is that out of the former, a un secretary general that we've had the current one antonia perez. there has been no biography in english, on boutros, boutros garley. the only one has been by former french diplomat by the un. and i thought there was a conscious erasure by some western scholars of the drug galleys achievement, san brad court. i am old, so i got back to them myself. really interested in the most intellectually accomplished un secretary general on record. i mean, book scholarly, got his ph,

d from the boy and brought it published over a 100 scholarly articles. he wrote the book on the united nations in the arab language and was a very accomplished in international law scholar before he came into office. he also was the 1st africa and i'm the arab united. ready nations secretary general, of course, and he occupied the office as a really significant time when the cold war between russia. you have thought after 4 to 5 years. and when you and peacekeeping was greatly expanded, and there was an opportunity to resolve some of the regional conflicts calls by the cold. ready war to remind us. well yeah, reason remind us what years he was there. he died in in 2016, but he was un secretary general between 1992 and 99 to 6. so

yugoslavia the sanctions on iraq and actually madeline albright. let's go straight to that figure moving. he's in your book, not a great friend, boutros boutros golly. people can watch the clip of madeline albright clinton's secretary of state, celebrating some people say, but suddenly arguing that the deaths of 500000 iraqi children are a price worth paying for us interests in the middle east. they didn't get on. no, not all madeleine albright's was, were us and by the united nation that the time that boutros, boutros golly, was there. and she basically found him arrogant. she had found him dismissive of her own diplomatic intellectual skills. i'm blue cross was

somebody who was it patricia and you know, hit it. he came from a gives 200 families. his grandfather had been prime minister of egypt fascinated in 19, and he had to on call for foreign minister. and he'd been foreign minister of egypt for 14 years himself. he knew his wife and he came from a very slow lived family background and believed noblesse of please the obligations of rank. and so he didn't really cow to madeline albright just because she was a us and believe that she almost seemed to think that because she was a representative of the us, whatever she had said was little. she didn't need to kind of combine the whole team members of the un security council. so it was clear that these 2 personalities will

go to clash. and i think i love the final point that's important, is that the power low? the un, thanks, 3 general have very limited and the big power on the security council often say that they are expected 3 to a general. and the us full thought that boutros goalie was too independent minded. i'm to us that they wanted him to be more compliant. and to do what the u. s. wanted him to do. so those were really the clash between the 2. i mean, clearly we invite antonia good terrace on who isn't african, or arab and will no doubt say, you know what pressures are there right now? you don't mention, i don't think the direct wiki, leak snowden allegations or revelations that the un secretary general coffee and, and his successor, boutros boutros college success was bug by the see, i am i 6,

i don't know whether you found in your research where the boutros boutros galleys office was bugged, but that you do, you do say that we just, we just got a religious man. no way. i just wanted to say something on your point lat boutros was. ready rigid growth of what they call christian, which is a minority in egypt. and he wasn't, he didn't say himself, i was really particularly religious. and he was, he of course, went to church as a child and i don't believe well as he grew older, you seem to be more of an astro cost than tradition. but he did on the quote from the bible, and he did at least have respect all the call co creek, christie and religion. do you think? if we just, we just got, he was still alive and the inspector general, he would have allowed it to pass that the european union equivalent to foreign

minister, joseph burrell, said, europe is a garden. most of the rest of the world is a jungle. something redolent or the kind of well, it's throughout your book, implicit, the racism against boutros, boutros girly europe is the garden. the rest of the world is a jungle. yes, there was a rabo unfortunate comment and you know, boutros golly, there's no soft pools. gladly knew his knew his intelligence and you know, it, he, he was the one brave enough to tell the powerful western powers on the un security council that they were focusing on there. because that was a rich man's ball. and they were in africa all from conflict. and when he was why it was being given such a rough time by the british media over boston there,

he said quite candid me because i and it was. so i got a new race of them have the experience and he was very outspoken about, that's why he didn't kind of hop on it because he relied old on his intellect. he knew about he was the, you know, he, could he code basically, or the, you know, also get by professor at a k at about joe, i'll stop you there. more from the author, boutros, boutros, scholarly everywhere and profit prophesies of pharaoh and pope. after this break, ah oh, nice the russian state never. i've gone in the north lansky again. i'll send the 50000 bit.

okay, so i need to be doing else because we will bend in the european union, the kremlin machine, the state on russia today and was given our video agency roughly all band to on you to a stand with . so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy foundation, let it be in arms. race is on very dramatic and development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful,

very critical of time. time to sit down and talk to some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities and other countries. the united states of america is different wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with a little bit about it all to anybody phase. so the city, if you draw the look at the book, they incentives that needs to get a few color rebel notions is one among several meanings to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. western economic interest. people in sadie,

i didn't that needed to go by the democrats. yeah. during the training course. so no, that's a little bit soft by whatever you can do. the final goal of these seem revolutions is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor at the k at about joe, the former director of the institute of an african thought and conversation at the university of johannesburg on yugoslavia. and it has to be said, i mean, obviously on iraq in those sanctions, some sector generals might have resigned over half a 1000000 deaths in iraq. as regards the yugoslavia, i'm not sure whether you think that was aggression, nato bombing yugoslavia. and destroying that. her place completely white. why was he not more vocal in stopping up? the break up of yugoslavia which nato went for time. and tim began during his

tenure and that was the worst was in the 2nd world war. that was the beginning of things. maybe even the seeds of the grain will well, you see, i mean my understanding of the yoga law was, is that these were woolfolk a session. so you had a wall log. ready basically so crow most level. ready walls who are basically seek into cow, ethnically, peer territory want i think you cannot use the west all is neglect on. do you caution and failure to into being to way sorry, i'm sorry. profess, i've what there are so many books and how about the war in yugoslavia? no, i'm chomsky who's been on this show in the past few weeks as written some of them this was nothing to do with ignorance of what was going on. this was

a deliberate attempt to destroy the last bastion of something approaching ante neoliberalism in europe. it was something quite, quite different to that. let's get on to something nice about that. let me just make your final point please. ready if i may, i wasn't trying to say they were ignorant about that because don't forget that france i'm britain had troops on the ground. i'm saying move that they will be on duty course year about stopping slower. so when will know they did track to say they started, it hang on the detract to say it was a deliberate attempt to call that you love you after the german recognition of correct you're in the 1st place. but anyway, i want to get through and do you get a lot of politics? i would say that, you know, the leaders in belgrade certainly don't say that they will wall or this was a deliberate attempt by nature in washington and madeleine albright and others to, to come up because of it. interesting that you mentioned eritrea and ethiopia,

and boutros boutros got it because in the past few months, perhaps in bus year or so, some have accused nature nations of trying to drum up g grey, rebellion there against the peace process that has been successful between us. martin addis ababa. why was boutros boutros garley remarkably even handed, even as the nature of nations were involved in, you know, some people call it the live aid war. desperately backing the war on eritrea from the then if you're a pin dictator. the civil boy, the d. o b, i have been going on for 30 years, as you know, since the 69 to 91 when malice and his troops basically took over at it. and melissa was able to consolidate it, hold on power. and the wall between is the ok and there are

a trip. the border war that happened between the 2 broke out later on, broke had left off by the time that that border war broke out. it was while coffee . and then what the un secretary general, i mean, clearly, yeah and, and he's not following the nato line on, on our address there in the book, giving you a previous scholarly work. and i know this biography is a, is a scholarly, disinterested look at the form. it's actually general the united nations. it's clear that you damn him with rain praise when you talk about his betrayal of an online movement at time and time again, although you couch it in more nuanced prose, perhaps. why did he betrayed? why did he? i understand he went to yugoslavia and in front of tito. so he did a good job is he attacked cuba over angola where of course the seeds of and go list position today. who knows?

we love roads visit still was sewn from havana. i think it's important we put this in context because i was talking about is interaction with the number line, but not when he was un secretary general. but when he was tempted for a minute of egypt and what he was trying to do then was having negotiated the b street day with israel, with the arrow was overwhelmingly rejected. it was trying to prevent egypt, isolation diplomatically. i'm otherwise at the non aligned. and i think sometimes that very closely in the way he engaged with respect that leaders of the number line movement like castro and others. and, you know, sometimes nearly lost support. but in the end, most members of the non aligned movement. so both had at least

agreed not to expel egypt as many of the arab radical countries in the man had wanted to happen. would it made any difference if he'd been secretary general when nato destroyed africa's richest by capita country libya and well, the opponents of the was a basically led up to the assassination and one will get effie. you know, i think it's very important to recognise, as i said the, at the very limited powers of the united nations secretary general is basically a servant of the security council and the powerful members especially the permanent 5. vito world empowers who manipulate the professor why? why then do they bug coffee and, and the successor, we know from the snow,

snowden had to run off why bug is off as if it has no power. no c, i a and i might come book an office to find out what is been discussed in order to know what positions that they gone. yugoslavia on iraq must be like important them being secretary general. well, it's important doing so far as you deal with all the world, leave this you know? so the a you office has also been to use the been booked bugs have been found there as well. but i wouldn't say that the, the african union commission, most kids, but they clearly power. well, it's a matter of me formation. the position of african boss could be it could be, but i would argue that in practice, boudreaux often had to do things that he instinctively would not have

had to do. he had to bow of power. one of the things he complained about the most while the sanctions are not just the rock bottom, libya and he wrote his memoir, the 9 tonight denied after he left power after he left office. which really was this thing give indictment of the us in particular. and then he made very clear how unfair and one sided and balance it found. the western sang shows on both iraq and yet. so there will be always you have to good, i mean, most ordinary men and women around the world. if they find that what they're doing is somehow giving an imprimatur to the mass. murder of one colleague, let alone the killing wound to go displacing of tens of millions of men, women and children. they resign their position. so it being quite i yeah,

i will actually argue that it's a minority of people who are principal enough to raise high. and i think most people make calculations that you know, this is either benefit in them personally. or they make a calculation, as i think book or scholarly did that even though some of these things i'll be an hour to do all their good things that i'm able to do in live barrier in syria. leo, in all the places. just so for regional peacekeepers who are trying to save lives and provide humanitarian relief to people in distress. i don't profess those are the kinds of calculations for me that were being made well, professor, you're clearly not making a calculation personally, when you advocate packs african, that's not going to get you invited to any i m f. a will bank conferences just to us, what is backs african and who do you believe we should watch out for who are going

to be advocating this 21st century for africa, obviously now, in the spotlight, partly because of the war in ukraine is new global alliance. is a forged packs, africa is basically a concept that was developed in 1967 by one of my intellectual mentors, the late kenyan academic, allen, missouri. and the basic idea is that outside of should stay out of contraband africa. i left africans with vale and complex, and he explained that through the concept come principal of continental jurisdiction, almost like a monroe doctrine, africa. and he argued that through the principle of racial sovereignty, intra african intervention by african states themselves in neighboring country as was more legitimate than those by outsiders. today, it's a bit like it afi, right?

that's the same kind of thing that we advocated. dorothy was actually inspired by cuomo chroma, so in terms of his foreign policy was certainly an ear to quantum chroma, in trying to champion and they kind of kind of african security architecture. isn't there a problem? clearly there's a problem with anyone who advocates that who has power not in an academic way, not in any way by a politician. often they get killed. well i, you know, my view is really got out. there wasn't killed, but champion in africa overthrown. new chroma, new chrome, it didn't do well either. nor did chrome, patrice limit that they actually live. there has been

a recent literature that shows that with the i was involved in getting rid of the crew ma, and that's been very meticulously. document that in a book called white miss g class. recently just come out what i would argue that was not necessarily a been a champion in africa and he was assassinated, full, oppose in west position and issues like lock a, b, and the other issues from the past. i think that's okay, but we didn't groom our problem with yeah. you know. yeah. so i think would remember, i think would be the closer to that because it was clear that belgium and the us in particular had their hand in getting rid of patrick lumber because. ready

was the radical nationalist so there in 1961. ready i can see that well after whom a university in moscow was named, patrice, and remember, professor at a k at about joe. thank you so much for joining us. that's if the show will be back next saturday with a brand new episode. but until then, you can still keep in touch my social media if it's not sensitive in your country, we can always had to our channel going underground tv on ramble dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see very soon the the available 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service offices,

locking entrances and exits the keys oldest on the street. they were looking for alleged russian spies among the monks. we mean deal of seeming or formal reason for the brutal crime down one church. his parishioners had song, a song about russia. ah, it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any old adult christian attack in prison and even kill them. russia, what are you in russia? finance. when you love store, when you, when you store pro offline, you in your store thought us, you used to stop and we will send you info. i, you, from this dog with ah,

museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a lot to future generations. but our physical museums faces themselves, a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world. uh huh. tyson st . petersburg, how he's the director here, and i bet he has met with the i've never intentionally violated any countries territory. that's the message from china. as the u. s. suggest beijing is deliberately using its blues to spawn them inside thing attacks on russian regions. that's how moscow condemned the u. s . delivery of long range rockies to ukraine, which could potentially its crimea. g 7 imposes the price cap on russian oil to come. moscow's revenue, a president, putin says the country will not export all the states supporting the limits with.