that i talk to they may not necessarily support the russian aggression against ukraine box. they tend to be very critical of what they see as west them, the actions lightly us inspection and iraq, which was done without un. all right, nation. so they, that divided straightforward rusher was, doesn't, it wasn't even an aggression compares it to, i don't know was tanza near going into you gander in 978 and aggression. you don't also believe that nato mainstream media is running the story. non stop russia is starving africa. i know lover of coven nato countries to allow fertilizer to be given to africa from russia. i know it's not perhaps being starved, a weapons leaking out, perhaps from the grain conflict into islam as groups as of from previous wars. is russia solving africa?

i don't put it crudely as that, but all the li, the conflict, and i do see it actually as a, as a back aggression, by the way i said just of i see the us intervention in iraq as of aggression. and i think both need to be condemned. and that's the way that alignment is meant to work both. i think they're different and may be trent pool crisis. have i think that africa, the coven crisis, was one. the crisis is that, and i think that a lot of the boom and grain that africa, i guess it is russia and ukraine of the also accept debate that, that issue. but i wouldn't put it crudely as russia in africa. actually just on the aggression point, since we are addressing a un secretary general or the subject of your book. i mean,

you saying you see it as aggression. so you'd see the invasion of france by the allies in 1943 as an act of aggression as well. or francois nicely attacked by nancy germany. i was a veto. it was a v. she france, that there was a government in france was m. anyway, i don't want to do long into the idea of a grant because i think maybe we should focus maybe on our issues, but i don't think they watch the bait that nancy jim knew was the grass in the cycle hold. i think we can all agree with either we can all agree with that one. so why choose boutros boutros god is the subject of the biography. i mean, he's no noted by some to be an apologist for french war crimes. of course, in what was rolling over to us israel priorities in palestine. what, why did you choose boutros boutros gully?

the past reason is that out of the former, a un secretary general that we've had since the current one antonia perez. there has been no biography in english, on boutros, boutros golly, the only one has been by the french diplomat by the. ready un and i thought there was a conscious erasure by some western scholars of drugs, galleys achievement san brent courts. i am also, as i'm academic myself, really interested in the most intellectually accomplished un secretary general on record. i mean, book scholarly, got his b, h the, from the boy and brought it published over a 100 scholarly articles. he wrote the book on the united nations in the arab

language and was a very accomplished in the nice no law scholar before he came into office. he also was the 1st african i'm the arab united nations secretary general. ready and he occupied the office as a really significant time when the cold war between russia us have thought after 4 to 5 years. and when you and peacekeeping was greatly expanded, and there was an opportunity to resolve some of the regional conflicts calls by the . ready ready call to remind us. well yeah, reason remind us what years he was there. he died in in 2016, but he was un secretary general between 1992 and 99 to 6. so you guess slab via the sanctions on iraq. and actually madeline albright, let's go straight to that figure moving. he's in your book, not a great friend,

boutros boutros golly people can watch the clip of madden albright clinton's secretary of state, celebrating some people say, but suddenly arguing that the deaths of 500000 iraqi children are a price worth paying for us interests in the middle east, they didn't get on. no, not at all. madeline, all rights was with us and the united nation. by the time that boutros, boutros golly, was there. and she basically found him arrogant. she had found him dismissive of her own diplomatic intellectual skills. i'm blue cross was somebody who was it patricia and you know, hid it. he came from a gives 200 families. his grandfather had been prime minister egypt fascinated in 19, and he had to call the school for

a minute. and he'd been deputy foreign minister of egypt for 14 years himself. he knew his worth and he came from a very small lived family background. i'm believed that noblesse bleached the obligations of rank and so he didn't really cow to madeline albright just because she was a us and believe that she almost seemed to think that because she was a representative of the us, whatever she said was little. she didn't need to kind of combine the whole team members of the un security council. so it was clear that these 2 personalities will go to clash. and i think i love the final point that's important, is that the power of the un, thanks, 3 general are very limited. and the big powers on the security council often say

that there are a secretary to a general and the us full thought that brutal scully was too independent minded. i'm to us that they wanted him to be more compliant. and to do what the u. s. wanted him to do so. those were really the clash between. ready but i mean, clearly we invite antonia good terrorist on who isn't african, or arab, and will no doubt say, you know, what? pressures are there right now? you don't mention, i don't think the direct wiki, leak snowden allegations or revelations that the un secretary general coffee and then his successor, boutros boutros college success, was bug by the see, i am i 6, i don't know whether you found in your research where the boutros boutros galleys office was bugged, but that you do, you do say that boutros boutros golly or a religious man. you know, way. i don't want to say something on your point. boutros was. ready rigid girls,

of course what they call christian, which is the minority in egypt. and he wasn't, he didn't say himself, i was really particularly religious. and he was, he of course, went to church as a child and have some believe. well, as he grew older, you seem to be more of an astro cost of tradition. what he did on the quote from the bible. and he did at least have respect all the call co creek, christie and religion. do you think? if boutros boutros, god was still alive and the inspector general, he would have allowed it to pass that the european union equivalent to foreign minister, joseph burrell, said, europe is a garden. most of the rest of the world is a jungle, something redolent or the kind of well, it's throughout your book, implicit,

the racism against boutros, boutros girlie. europe is the garden. the rest of the world is a jungle. yes, there was a rabo unfortunate comment and you know, boutros scholarly, there's no soft pools, gladly knew his knew his intelligence. and, you know, he, he was even brazen enough to tell the powerful western powers on the un security council that they were focusing on there. because that was a rich man's ball and they were like in africa all from conflicts. and when he was why it was being given such a rough time by the british media over boston, he's there quite candidly because i am the wog. so boutros golly new race of them have the experience and he was very outspoken about that's why he didn't kind of

hop on it because he relied old on his intellect. he knew about. ready was, you know, he could, he could basically, out of the, you know, also get by professor at a k at about joe, i'll stop you there. more from the author boutros boutros golly, after our profit process size of pharaoh and pope after this break. ah, who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing additional strong sanctions. today russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that is constantly growing. which of course, when you come to mind the ship were bending all in port. so russian oil and gas side where you're suffering the price for you have been in another country of those

. we're going to look at, you know, when are you getting a good job by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy . so there's your boomerang at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people. and to defend the world from gravely booth with both we will bring to the iraqi food and medicines and supplies. and freedom with

some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities. another comes the united states of america is different . wearable people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with deep pro law, feel it out by the body, bolts, anybody phase eat? sincerely, city. if you draw, you look at the book, the incentives of each cigarette color revolutions is one among several meanings to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of usaa weston economic interests. people in sad it hadn't that he did to that grow valley

democrats. yeah. langley cheney cork page. so know who you best say low their soft power and they get the final goal. these seem revolutions to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. ah welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor at the k at about joe be former director of the institute for pan african thought and conversation at the university of johannesburg on yugoslavia. and it has to be said, i mean, obviously on iraq in those sanctions, some sector generals might have resigned over half a 1000000 deaths in iraq. as regards the yugoslavia, i'm not sure whether you think that was aggression, nato bombing yugoslavia and destroying last place completely white. why was he not more vocal in stopping up the breakup of yugoslavia, which nato went for time?

and tim began during his tenure, and that was the worst was in the 2nd world war, that was the beginning of things. maybe even the seeds of the grain will well, you see, i mean, my understanding of the yoga la was, is that these were, will. so session so you had a lot. ready basically, so crow mostly all who are basically seek into cow, ethnically, peer territory want i think you cannot use, the west style is neglect on you caution and failure to intervene to way, sorry, i'm sorry. profess, i've what there are so many books and how about the war in yugoslavia? no, i'm chomsky who's been on this show in the past few weeks as written some of them this was nothing to do with ignorance of what was going on. this was

a deliberate attempt to destroy the last bastion of something approaching anti neoliberalism in europe. it was something quite, quite different to that. let's get on to something nice about that. let me just make your final point. ready if i may, i wasn't trying to say they were ignorant about that because don't forget that france i'm britain had troops on the ground. i'm saying that they will be on do leave course year about stopping slower. so when will know who to track to say they started it hang on, the detract to say it was a deliberate attempt to call that you love you after the german recognition of correct you're in the 1st place. but anyway, i do want to get through and do you get a lot of politics? i would say that, you know, the leaders in belgrade certainly don't say that they will wall or this was a deliberate attempt by nature in washington and madeleine albright and others to, to call up because of it. interesting that you mentioned eritrea and ethiopia,

and boutros. boutros got it because in the past few months, perhaps in bus year or so, some have accused nature nations of trying to drum up g grey, rebellion there against the peace process that is being successful between as martin addis ababa. why was boutros boutros garley remarkably even handed, even as the nature nations were involved in, you know, some people call the live aid war desperately backing the war on eritrea from the then if you're a pin dictator, the civil boy d o b, i have been going on for 30 years, as you know, since the 16th 1991 when malice and his troops basically took over at it. and melissa was able to consolidate in hold on power. and the war between yogi and their address,

the border wall that happened between the 2, broke out later on google had left off by the time that that border war broke out. it was wild trophy. and what were you in general? i mean, clearly. yeah. and, and he's not following the nato line on, on our address there in the book, given you a previous scholarly work. and i know this biography is a, is a scholarly, disinterested look at the form. it's actually general, the united nations. it's clear that you damn him with brain praise when you talk about his betrayal of an online movement at time and time again, although you couch it in more nuanced prose, perhaps. why did he betrayed, why did he understand? he went to yugoslavia and in front of tito. so he did a good job is he attacked cuba over angola where of course, the seeds of and go this position today who knows we leverage visits still were

sewn from havana. i think it's important. we put this in context because i was talking about is interaction with the number line. ready but not when he was un secretary general, but when he was empty for a minute of egypt and what he was trying to do then was having that go. she a b street day with israel with the arrow was overwhelmingly rejected. it was trying to prevent egypt, isolation diplomatically. i'm all the wise at the non aligned and i think sometimes that very closely. ready in the way he engaged with respect that leaders of them on the line movement like castro and others. and, you know, sometimes nearly lost support, but in the end, most members of the non aligned movement. so all 10

o at least agreed not to expel egypt as many of the arab radical countries in the had wanted to happen. would it made any difference if he'd been secretary general when nato destroyed africa's riches per capita, country libya and well, the opponents of the was a basically led up to the assassination and want to get a you know, i think it's very important to recognise, as i said the, at the very limited powers of the united nations secretary general is basically a servant of the security council. and the powerful members, especially the permanent 5 veto wills, empowers who manipulate the professor why? why then do they bug coffee? and on his successor, we know from the snow,

snowden had to run north. why bug is office if it has no power? no. in my office, you come book an office to find out what is been discussed in order to know what positions that they go on. you go out there on iraq must be like important them being secretary general. well, it's important thing so far as you deal with all the world leave as you know. so a you office has also been to use the been booked bugs have been found there as well. but i wouldn't say that the chair of the african union commission, most kids, but they clearly power. it's a matter of me formation. the position of african boss could be it could be, but i would argue that in practice, boudreau often had to do things that he instinctively would not have

had to do. he had to bow of power. one of the things he complained about the most was the sanctions are not just the rock bottom, libya and he rotates. men was 9 tonight, denied after he left power after he left office. which really was this thing give indictment of the us in particular. and then he made very clear how unfair and one sided and balance it found. the western sang shows on both iraq and libya. so there were always you have to go there. i mean, most ordinary men and women around the world. if they find that what they're doing is somehow giving an imprimatur to the mass. murder of one colleague, let alone the killing wound to go displacing of tens of millions of men, women and children. they resign their position. so it being quite i yeah,

i will actually argue that it's a minority of people who are principal enough to raise high. and i think most people make calculations that you know, this is the, the benefits in them personally. all they make a calculation as i think book trust golly, did that even though some of these things can be an hour to do all their good things that i'm able to do in live barrier in syria. leo, in all the places to support regional peacekeepers who are trying to save lives and provide humanitarian relief to people in distress. professionals are the kinds of calculations for me that were being made by professor. you're clearly not making a calculation personally, when you advocate packs african, that's not going to get you invited to any i m. f. a will and conferences just to us. what is back to africa, and who do you believe we should watch out for who are going to be advocating this

21st century for africa, obviously. now, in the spotlight, partly because of the war in ukraine is new global alliance is a forged packs. africa is basically a concept that was up to 967 by one of my intellectual mentors, leg kenyon, academic, allen, missouri. and the basic idea is that outside of should stay out of contraband africa. i left africans were though they own complex, and he explained that through the concept principle of continental jurisdiction, almost like a monroe doctrine for africa. and he argued that through the principle of racial sovereignty, in africa, intervention by african states themselves in neighboring countries was more legitimate than those by outside. this today is a bit like afi, right?

that's the same kind of thing that we advocated. dopey was actually inspired by cuomo chroma. so in terms of his foreign policy was in the air to kwan the chroma in trying to champion and they kind of pan africa, security architecture. isn't there a problem? clearly there's a problem with anyone who advocates that who has power not in an academic way, not in any way by a politician. often they get killed. well i, you know, my view is really got out there wasn't killed, but champion then african, they get overthrown, new crew, me a new cream. it didn't do well either. nor did chrome or the patrice. lemme yeah. that they actually, i'm going to live. there has been

a recent literature that shows that with the i was involved in getting rid of the crew ma and that's been very meticulously document that in a book called white miss g class recently just come out. but i would argue that it was not necessarily a fascinated champion in africa and he was not in a full of pose in west position and issues like locker b and the other. ready issues from the past. i think that's okay. but we didn't groom our lab problem with yeah. you know. yeah. so no, no, i think would no more, i think would be the closer to that because it was clear that belgian and the us in particular had their hand in getting rid of patrick lumber because. ready

the radical nationalist, so that in 1961, i would concede that well after my university in moscow was named, patrice and a member professor at a k at about joe, thank you so much for joining us. that's it for the show will be back next saturday . with the brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch my social media. if it's not sense it in your country, we can always had to channel going underground tv on rebel dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see very soon the the a,

some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities and other countries. the united states of america is different. wearable people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with a little bit about it evolved anybody? basie sincerely sitting p, draw you look at the book they incentives of each cigarettes, p color revolutions is one among several meanings to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. western economic interests people been sadie. i didn't that he did go by the demo lexia learning will change coral sol, suite. best say low their soft power maybe can the final goal of these seem

revolutions is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world. anymore oh, lisa, come to russian state little, never. i've side as i'm turning the no santini div asking him then i'll send them up for a group in the 55 when. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. one else with will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machine. restate on russia for date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency roughly all band to on you to a question. did you think even close with

me? i live in the 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians, confronted ukrainian security service offices, looking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for a russian spies among the monks. we mean deal of seeming us are from a reason to the brutal crack down one church is parishioners said, song a song about a long been recently enough to condemn any old adult christian attack in prison and even kill them. russia, what i knew, rush up, i need to pick grass when you love store new in your store of pro offline. you and

your store as you used to start a new phone i use from this dog with ah, at least one person is killed and up to 4 feet trapped to under rubble. that's all to the latest round of ukrainian shelling kate's residential areas of don't. yes, brazil's president refuses to send weapons to key it is international efforts to bring peace to you. craig plus president bide involved to take care of a chinese balloon floating across america. with the pentagon report of the proposed to shoot down the cross, which may jing cause a with.