we go, mahash, did it be slow in implementing the ebooks? as of yet all the latest news updates, discussions and debates you can check our website dotty dot com. thanks for choosing martinez. mm ah. with ah, i can. i'm african retents, e, and welcome back to going underground ragas single round the world from dubai. in the united arab emirates, african nations faced mounting pressure from nato nations to support that war on

russia through ukraine, especially since vladimir putin's foreign minister sag elaborate, groundbreaking tour of african nations, culminating, and joint military drills between the armies of russia in south africa. with me today is a professor at a k, at about joe, former director of the institute for pan african thornton conversation at the university of john as well, who served on you admissions in south africa. he's also the author of the new book, boutros boutros golly, apropos prophet proselytize, a pharaoh and pope, one of the very few written works in the u. n. z. first african arab 60 general, whose contributions he says had been raised by nature nation scholars professor at about your joins me now from johannesburg in south africa. thank you so much, professor for joining us before we get to the book. i must ask, man, i should say a book about a un secretary general that wasn't assassinated. unlike dag hamish old famously, your view of oliver rob's visit to africa. i mean, in a donation meteor i don't, i knew you were in nigeria at the time during the visit,

but i mean all but condemning as african counterpart, melody and door. oh, vera joined russia. south africa perhaps shine a military drill, sir. i suppose it's a class divide in all the sorts of things elite in south africa, looking down at the a government in south africa for doing anything with russia and a different story for the masses. well, thank you very much and i have to say, i'm the university of sorry i even though i'm based in johannesburg, i think the last visit and the whole ukraine issue has divided opinion in south africa. generally. i think it's also important to note that among the ruling african national, congress leads many of the educated and received military training in the soviet union at the time. and a lot of empathy for russia generally

and the way at the time. but typically the us and britain on the reagan gotcha was supporting the regime against which the n c was fighting. so those dynamics are quite important to understand in south africa position. and i think, i don't think it's clear as a lead math divides because among many of the black l. e i talk to they may not necessarily support the russian aggression against ukraine box. they tend to be very critical of what they see as well. and the actions lightly us and iraq, which was done without un, all right. ation. so they said divide. it's not so straightforward. rusher a course doesn't that it wasn't even in an aggression compares it to,

i don't know was tanza near going into you gander in 978 and aggression. you don't also believe that nato mainstream media is running the story. nonstop rusher is starving africa. i know lover of coven nato countries to allow fertilizer to be given to africa from russia. i know it's not perhaps being starved, a weapons leaking out, perhaps from the grain conflict into, is amiss group says from previous was, is russia solving africa? i don't put it crudely as that, but we are li, the conflict, and i do see it actually as a, as an aggression by the way i said just of i see the us intervention in iraq as i'm out of aggression. and i think both need to be con them, but that's the way that alignment is meant to work both. i think they're different and may be trent pool crisis. have i think that africa, the kobe crisis,

obviously was one. the crisis is that, and i think that a lot of the boom and grain that africa is getting it from russia and ukraine of the also accept the bait that that issue. but i wouldn't put it crudely as russia style in africa. actually just on the aggression point, since we are addressing a un secretary general of the subject of your book, i mean, you saying you see it as aggressive. so you'd see the invasion of france by the allies in 1943 as an act of aggression as well. well, problems was actually attacked by non german the, well, it was a visa, vc, france, that there was a government in france was in the anyway, i don't want to get too long into the idea of a grant because i think maybe we should focus maybe on our issues,

but i don't think they watch the bait that nancy jim knew was the grass and the whole rule. i think we can all agree with either we can all agree with that one. so why choose boutros boutros god is the subject of the biography. i mean, he's no noted by some to be an apologist for french war crimes. of course what was rolling over to us israel priorities in palestine. what, why did you choose boutros boutros gully? the past reason is that out of the former 8 un secretary general that we've had since the current one, antonio perez. there has been no biography in english, on boutros, boutros garley. the only one has been by former french diplomat by the un. and i thought there was a conscious erasure by some western scholars of blue truth galleys

achievement, san brent courts. i am old, so as i'm after them myself, really interested in the most intellectually accomplished un secretary general on record. i mean, book scholarly gods, his b h. the problem was a boy and it's published over a 100 scholarly articles. he wrote the book on the united nations in the arab language and was a very accomplished in international law scholar before he came into office. he also was the 1st africa and i'm the arab united. ready nations secretary general, of course, and he occupied the office as a really significant time when the cold war between russia. you have thought after 4 to 5 years. and when you and peacekeeping was greatly expanded,

and there was an opportunity to resolve some of the regional conflicts calls by the cold. ready war to remind us. well yeah, reason remind us what years he was there. he died in in 2016, but he was un secretary general between 1992 and 99 to 6. so you guess slab via the sanctions on iraq. and actually madeline albright, that's go straight to the figure of he's in your book, not a great friend, boutros boutros golly people can watch the clip of madeline albright clinton's secretary of state, celebrating some people say, but suddenly arguing that the deaths of $500000.00 iraqi children are a price worth paying for us interests in the middle east. they didn't get on. no, not at all. madeline, all rights was us and the united nation. that

the time, that boutros, boutros golly, was there. and she basically found him arrogant. she had found him dismissive of her own diplomatic intellectual skills. i'm blue cross was somebody who was it patricia and you know, hid it. he came from a gives 200 families. his grandfather had been prime minister, so egypt fascinated in 19, and he had to uncle school for a minute. and he'd been deputy foreign minister, egypt for 14 years himself. he knew his worth and he came from a very solid family background. i'm believed noblesse of bleach the obligations of rank. and so he didn't really cow cow to madeline albright just because she was a us and believe that she almost seemed to think that because she was

a representative of the us, whatever she said was little. she didn't need to kind of combine the all the key members of the un security council. so it was clear that these 2 personalities will go to clash. and i think i love the final point that's important. is that the power of the un, thanks. 3 general are very limited and the big powers on the security council often say that there are expected 3 to a general and the us. ready for a thought that butram scully was to independent mind that i'm to us, that they wanted him to be more compliance and to do what the us wanted him to do. so those were really the all the clash between the 2. i mean, clearly we invite antonia to tear is on who isn't african or arab and will no doubt say, you know what? pressures are there right now?

you don't mention, i don't think the direct wiki league snowden allegations or revelations that the un secretary general coffee and, and his success boutros boutros college success was bugged by the c. i. am i 6, i don't know whether you found in your research or the boutros, boutros galleys office with bugs. but you do, you do say that we just, we just golly or a religious man. you know, way. i don't want to say something on your point. cross was religion growth or what they call christian, which is a minority in egypt and he wasn't, he didn't say himself, i was really particularly religious and he was he. busy of course went to church as a child, and i don't believe well as he grew older, you seem to be more of an extra cost of tradition. what he did on the

quote from the bible. and he did at least have read all the called co. christie and religion. do you think if boutros boutros, god, he was still alive and the inspector general, he would have allowed it to pass that the european union equivalent of foreign minister, joseph burrell, said, europe is a garden. most of the rest of the world is a jungle, something redolent or the kind of well, it's throughout your book, implicit, the racism against boutros, boutros girlie. europe is the garden. the rest of the world is a jungle. yes, there was a rabo unfortunate comment and you know, boutros golly, there's no software will gladly knew his knew his intelligence. and, you know, he, he was the one brave enough to tell the powerful western powers on the un

security council that they were focusing on there. because that was a rich man's ball. and they were neglect in africa as open conflicts. and when he was why it was being given such a rough time by the british media over boston, he said quite candidly, because i am the one. so chris got a new race of them have the experience. and he was very outspoken about, that's why he didn't kind of hop on it because he relied also on his intellect. he knew that he was, you know, he could, he could basically, either, you know, also get by professor at a k at about joe, i'll stop you there. more from the author boutros boutros golly, after our profit prophesies of pharaoh and pope after this break. ah

ah ah, none of what is me my the night is that it's all by you when you actually fighting a war, essentially to prove when the it done that a surgeon. so crushing forward once again in this region and saw that that is what i wanted to deploy the limit as water. the water with the news november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service officers looking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for alleged russian spies among the monks. we mean dealer seaman and he was no violent foam. the reason for the brutal crime down one church is

parishioners had sung a song about russia. ah me. ah, it's long been reason enough to condemn any orthodox christian attack in prison and even kill them. russia, what are you shipping to pick ross when you love store new store of bro? i slight banging noonish total thought as you used to stop at the receiving end of the cmu senior bomb. i used to miss doug this evening. he just sat down with ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor at the k at about joe, the former director of the institute of an african thought and conversation at the university of johannesburg on yugoslavia. and it has to be said, i mean,

obviously on iraq in those sanctions, some sectors generals might have resigned over half a 1000000 deaths in iraq. as regards the yugoslavia, i'm not sure whether you think that was aggression, nato bombing yugoslavia and destroying vast place completely white. why was he not more vocal in stopping up? the break up of yugoslavia which nato went for time and then began during his tenure and that that was the worst was in the 2nd world war. that was the beginning of things. maybe even the seeds of the grain will well, you see, i mean my understanding of the yugoslav was, is that these were woolfolk session. so you had a war lords. ready basically so crow muslim wall. ready who are basically seek into a car about nuclear pier territory. one,

i think you cannot use the west though, is neglect on do you caution and failure to into being to way, sorry, i'm sorry. profess i've what. there are so many books and how about the war in yugoslavia? no, i'm chomsky has been on this show in the past few weeks as written some of them. this was nothing to do with ignorance of what was going on. this was a deliberate attempt to destroy the last bastion of something approaching anti neoliberalism in europe. it was something quite, quite different to that. let's get on to something nice about that. let me just make your final point. ready if i may, i wasn't trying to say they were ignorant about that because don't forget that france, i'm breton, had troops on the ground. i'm saying move that they were being on duty course year about stopping slower. so when you know they did track to say they started,

it hang on to detract to say it was a deliberate attempt to call them you love you after the german recognition of caricature in the 1st place. but anyway, i want to get through and do you get a lot of politics? i would say that, you know, the leaders in belgrade certainly don't say that there were warlords. this was a deliberate attempt by nature in washington and madeleine albright and others to to come up because of it. interesting that you mentioned eritrea and ethiopia, and boutros boutros got it because in the past few months, perhaps in bus year or so, some have accused nato nations of trying to drum up g grey, rebellion there against the peace process that has been successful between us. mara and addis ababa, why was boutros boutros garley remarkably even handed, even as the nature of nations were involved in, you know, some people call it the live aid war. desperately backing the war on eritrea from the then if you're a pin dictator the

civil boy, the d. o, b, i have been going on for 30 years, as you know, since the 69 to 91 when malice and his troops basically took over at it. and melanie was able to consolidate it, hold on power, and the wall between if you ok, and there a trip, the border wall that happened between the 2 broke out later on blue had left off by the time that that border war broke out. it was wild trophy and then what the un secretary general. i mean clearly. yeah and, and he's not following the nature line on, on our address there in the book, given you a previous scholarly work. and i know this biography is a, is a scholarly, disinterested look at the form is actually general the united nations. it's clear that you damn him with frame praise. when you talk about his betrayal of the non

line movement at time and time again. although you couch it in more nuanced prose perhaps. why did he betrayed, why did he understand? he went to yugoslavia and in front of tito. so he did a good job is he attacked cuba over angola, where of course, the seeds of and go this position today who knows. we leverage visits still were sewn from havana. i think it's important. we put this in context because i was talking about is interaction with the number line, but not when he was un secretary general, but when he was empty for a minute of egypt. and what he was trying to do then was having that go. she a b street day with israel, with the arrow was overwhelmingly rejected. it was trying to prevent egypt,

isolation diplomatically, i'm otherwise at the non aligned. and i think sometimes that very closely in the way he engaged with respect that leaders of them on the line movement like castro and others. and, you know, sometimes nearly lost support. but in the end, most members of the non aligned movement. so both had at least agreed not to expel egypt as many of the arab radical countries in the man had wanted to happen. would it made any difference if he'd been secretary general when nato destroyed africa's richest per capita, country libya and well, the opponents of the was a basically led up to the assassination and one will get a you know, i think it's very important to recognise, as i said the,

at the very limited powers of the united nations secretary general is basically a servant of the security council and the powerful members, especially the permanent 5 vito world in power school. manipulate the professor why? why then do they bug coffee? and on the successor, we know from the snow, snowden had to run off why bug is off as if it has no power. no. ca. and i might come book an office to find out what is been discussed in order to know what positions that they gone. yugoslavia on iraq must be like important them being secretary general. well, it's important in so far as you deal with all the world, leave this you know, so the a you office has also been to the been booked bugs have been found there as well.

but i wouldn't say that the, the african union commission, most back is big, powerful. it's a matter of me formation. the position of african boss could be it could be, but i would argue that in practice, boudreaux often had to do things that he instinctively would not have had to do. he had to bow of power. one of the things he complained about the most while the sanctions are not just the rock bottom, libya and he rotates. men was 9 tonight, denied after he left power after he left office. which really was this thing give indictment of the us in particular. and then he made very clear how unfair and one sided and balance it found. the western sang shows on both iraq and libya.

so there were always you have to go there. i mean, most ordinary men and women around the world. if they find that what they're doing is somehow giving an imprimatur to the mass. murder of one colleague, let alone the killing wound to go displacing of tens of millions of men, women and children. they resign their position. so it being quite i yeah, i would actually argue that it's a minority of people who are principled enough to raise high. and i think most people make calculations that, you know, this is a benefit then level personally, all they make a calculation of writing scholarly did that even though some of these things be enough to do are all for their good thing that i'm able to do in liberia in syria, leo, in all the places to support regional peacekeepers who are trying to save lives and

provide humanitarian relief to people in distress. professionals are the kinds of calculations for me that will be made. well professor, you are clearly not making a calculation personally when you advocate packs african and that's not going to get you invited to any i m f. world bank conferences, just us. what is backs african and who do you believe we should watch out for who are going to be advocating this 21st century for africa, obviously now in the spotlight, partly because of the war in ukraine. this new global alliance is a forged packs. africa is basically a concept that was developed in 1967 by one of my intellectual mentors, the late kenyan academic, allen, missouri. and the basic idea is that outside those should stay out of the contraband africa. i left africans with their own conflicts,

and he explained that through the concept come principal of continental jurisdiction, almost like a monroe doctrine, africa. and he argued that through the principle of racial sovereignty, intra african intervention by african states themselves in neighboring countries was more legitimate than those by outsiders. today, it's a bit like get out the right. that's the same kind of thing that we advocated. dorothy was actually inspired by cuomo chroma, so in terms of his foreign policy was certainly an ear to quantum chroma, in trying to champion and they kind of kind of african security architecture. isn't there a problem? clearly there's a problem with anyone who advocates that who has power not in an academic way,

not in any way by a politician. often they get killed. well i, you know, my view is really got out there wasn't killed, but champion then african, they all get overthrown, new crew, me a new cream. it didn't do well either. nor did chrome or the patrice limit that they actually live. there has been recent literature that shows that with the i was involved in getting rid of the crew ma and that's been very meticulously document that in a book called white miss g class recently just come out. but i would argue that there was not necessarily been a champion in africa, and he was not in a full of pose in west position and issues like loc a,

b and the other. ready issues from the past. i think that's okay. but we didn't chrome our lab problem with yeah. you know. yeah. so no i think would no more, i think would be the closest to that because it was clear that belgium and the us in particular had their hand in getting rid of patrick lumber because. ready was the radical nationalist, so there in 1961, i would concede that well after my university in moscow was named, patrice and a member professor at a k at about joe, thank you so much for joining us. that's it for the show will be back next saturday with a brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch my social media. if it's not sense that in your country, we can always had to our channel going underground tv on rumble, dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see very soon the

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