thanks, clark, sol, suite bus, a loaders softball. whenever you can. the final goal of these thim revolutions is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. ah. with hello and welcome to ends of heart. well, most people of good will have long rejected war as a legitimate course of action that governments continue investing in new armaments and larger armies, therefore, affirming with the taxpayers money that more is still a continuation of politics or geo politics. by other means,

can the fear and moral rejection of more obscure something heathen and yet perpetuating about its nature or to discuss that i am now joined by so yet a taut has inane. i retired lieutenant general of the indian army and a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general, it's a great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. my pleasure to be on your program. now i take it from your writing that things even the most unexpected things rarely arise out of the blue the they usually have antecedents, even if those in to sit ins may have been obscured. if we take the russia ukraine conflict, which you, by the way described as a, as a proxy war between nature and russia. what are some of the underlying reasons for it? see, of course, it's a better complex geopolitical situation, which is existing day in the well, eurasia, central,

eastern europe of bases like that's what it would be. you want to describe it. what all this the, the, the root cause of. it goes back to 1945, 46, the end of the 2nd world war, and the subsequent cornwall, which existed for the better part of the 4040 years. oh, in which finally the soviet union broke up and all the stitch, witcher report of the soviet union, 15 states the commonwealth of independent states subsequent b. i'm the warsaw back states legal pause denito when i'm ensured the balance of power in europe did to started joining the new to say and it was there to florida. near dawes rick green minutes. he went to the military with me in the cold war, which was pushing the former soviet union of russia backwards. there wasn't a dollar and there was a level of dog rooms in red light which exist, or it was really difficult to finding that. and the russia continued to

accept it up. now benito offensive, or, you know, conduct of an officer of his job politics domino, operations are such and i'm finally stopped at do you agree? and while up every, all the countries could join nato and not directly threatened russia, but jewel cleaned becoming an integral part of nato will result in direct threat to the russian. oh, glad can i ask you specifically about the ukraine because we have had a lot of american political analysts and girls are writing about how critical i ukraine is for russia. and, you know, remember that the same as brzezinski quote that without ukraine, russia can never consider itself a great power or an, an empire. de thing in the air, the substance of russia's objections, do they come down to motions and nostalgia the soviet nostalgia,

or do they have said of military strategy at their core? neither of them, i think the same quality. and as sir, it's or russia was fully justified about wanting just dreshaun, the only access that russia has to does. what does anyone in the were, is primarily the arctic circle into the arctic sea, or it is on velocity was doctor was the pacific ocean. there are no other way that the russians have got access to the see, except the black sea. now in the black sea, it 7 for dest, you cool your grain, that a russia exercises, you know, what is the whole area of crimea? ah, the sea. busy evolved the porch, exciting day during orders are places like that. i strongly always have subscribe to this idea that everything is acceptable, even even a, even a land to be

a trip to russia is acceptable. but leaving russia without access to the black, she is actually o king, russia is at to me, instigating russia responded, and this is exactly what happened. my love wind on this particular argument is the fact that in 2015, russia went to the board of her let back here in syria. oh, good by not all go by, but the book was there was deployed. there also be the ab is that it was so important for russia because that's the only manner in which you can have access to the mediterranean, into the area of the, the gulf, and the for everybody important strategic region of the world. so russia was essentially and pursuing a strategic interest meant in case of syria. it was doing that in accordance in agreement with the legitimate and you and recognize syrian government. and when it

comes to ukraine, i'm one could argue that the ukraine is a sovereign nation, that it is up to itself to didn't define who it wants to be associated with. and yet, you still claim that russia on ukraine had been pushed to a health. what do you mean by that? it displays will tweets. i mean, i knew seen the stance that i go in value by the manner in which india has been the south. india has it, given me the site is only analyzed is only argued for both site and as i respect as a valuable because you are a distance and a protagonist. absolutely, yeah, i would say mid or justification of nato is to portia, is drugs. and as, as a democratic, right, and the nation has got the capability and the right good join. any other nation,

any other organization, any other entity who are once it's a need for the, for its own people? this is exactly what the new dragoman does. yeah. but if you really see it on real quality off to the end of the cold war, the nickel bush is good until the was up. but soon the vamos are back on. was all about making it almost impossible for russia ever to root by leaving it. no options at door why the rush is weak as though read in 1989 because they read in the ninety's at that by not this one. and when russian ball are became, will comprehensive, begin stronger russia started responding. and that's why you performed in 2004 b rosen group. and finally, i just wondered if not what kind of reginald wall it is wanted with hybrid. well, this was some of the classic hybrid gum bibs, which was caught out in crimea and, and the areas like that. so both sides are got their justifications to go what

they're doing, a demo, our argument, my argument only as a analyst is that if for both sides admit their statements to radius are acts armed acts for the what they had done, there must realize that this war is unreasonable neither said can, with the american military strategy have been writing about the i this idea of the proxy war as a cheaper and faster substitute for a conventional war. and i think for some time the russians have played the long, even though the american capabilities to shape and to influence and sometimes distort global public opinion. i'm much more superior than the rushes. but i wonder if in deciding to deploy this a traditional conventional force, the kremlin was aiming not only for defending its strategic interest,

but also for sort of challenging this american paradigm. that perception is reality, that you will lose war on television screens rather than on the actual battlefield actually is even more complex than what you explained at the moment. it's not just a question of a direct confrontation, what the russian side decided finally was. that it red line had been crossed, right. we've, most of us were analyzing of that particular time in february last year. got ready, full tough every to be precise. read. although benin, because we were reading too much into how the word shaped. both the pandemic and political and i'm even thinking that no nation to be probably one of the war to conventional water this particular state. but if we had gone pads, dba and understood the russian mind, we were to realised that the red lines had already been crossed. and president wooten was willing to commit as conventional forces to defend russian interest in

eastern europe. that is very clear as other americans are concerned. they were care that it would be a proxy one, that they will not come into that own groups though we're not coming to europe in groups to just through your grain. through the comprehensive lasher bought of ukraine. only that this will be for, i'm not sure that this is if venomous packaged, although i'm also not for american deployment or any other nettle deployment, because that will make the situation so, so dangerous that we are almost getting into the eyes of a code word wall but both sites now at this stage have to realised that this ward is unwinnable. it is causing misery is not their own people. it's causing miscellaneous to the whole world, the energy crisis, the vendor make economic recovery, which is so necessary for the old one and food crisis. everything is happening. yeah. i was expecting that by the month of february, some payments start,

something while that that would start moving, but now i'm getting less hopeful than what i was. now, india is home to one of the world's greatest non violent resistance tradition. but you also have one of the world's strongest armies, and i wonder how did it shape your own domestic discourse around the russian ukranian war. and more generally about would be applicable ition of this conventional military capability. do you think it perhaps, legitimize the use of force limited use of force in the eyes of the indian problem? because you also have your fair share of, you know, conflicts with your neighbors. well, very good question. indeed, we ought to be all one of the nation's suffering from them, proceed that it is them or to the better part of the proxy water would just be important. gosh me to and that's the place where i commanded my groups to some years ago. having said that, no one has conscious of india by india,

about the effects, approximate water and what it can lead broke. she was going against walk, often wrenching or wards at different moments. we've had our own share of this in the last couple of years we've overcome it. so we know how dangerous proxy was in 2014, when russia decided to launch a proxy war in crimea. in this general area, i'm sure you know that the russia believes that it's the ukrainian side in the west, the west, the initiated that crisis with the overthrow of the legitimate government. i'm fully aware of what happened that perceptions about it. but yes, there are certain we cannot deny it was the question of pushing and that pushed into a shop at the end. and then we'll do this once from that auction site. i would not just divide the public obliquely from either side, but i would say the yes, there are some decided not to go and conventionally,

2014 was not at the time when convention or water was being looked at as a means of dissolving garden flex, not that it is being looked at today either, but the dean was perhaps a dining, but i would say russia had bounced back. somebody should be able to do a concrete nobody cooperative moscow in, in 2015. and i got lots of pretty g briefings. i think tank some place. so glad i saw other understanding that i should mind was better than i realized that 2014 russia had been pushed. and it, in most of my writing, you'll find that i, all of this tend to give a perception that the russia was a week. it could respond. it wanted to come back and be a competitive organization with as far as data was concerned. but that was not possible that can only be possible. russia has, gives a push back. pushback had to start from somewhere. it started from ukraine and 2000

. and what was it time? by which i am russia, that i should have gotten me russian comprehensive back to wow, it's leadership and gave me these are all going to be into place. but having said that, the last word on that i was surprised that be in the quantity of the russian military make initially anyway into conventional operations from 24th of february, last year, dot game as a surprise to most of us or not rational. well, on general, let's pause here for a moment, but we will be back to the discussion in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah, a . so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy,

even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians. confronted ukrainian security service offices, looking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for a russian spies among the monks. we mean deal of seeming or formal reason for the brutal crime down one church. his parishioners had song a song about, ah me,

it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any old adult christian attack, imprison, and even kill them. russia, what i knew rush up on you to pick it up when you load. store you when you store across like tenuous total us you used to me stop a samuel sample i use from his dog. this seems to me we just saw them. ah welcome back to wells fargo where santa has name retired lieutenant general of the indian army and a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general before the break, we were discussing your perception of russia, so they're being pushed and pushed than pushed. and then finally,

finding enough for well, us, strengthened perhaps, perhaps a resentment you to push back. and you've also written in one of your articles that someone should have anticipated someone within nato or someone within their western camps should have anticipated that at some stage, russia will rise in demand some dignity. isn't that true about any nation, no matter how big or small it is, that it's minimum interest need to be respected? isn't that also true in the case of ukraine when it comes to rush us offensive? it will remember when one of the 1st article that i wrote, i started the dimension of the video to the science and the 19. and i said that was the biggest mistake that the allies made of that i'm not really getting the dignity of the defeated german state. and you saw what happened 20 years ago with varying

thinking what and they rushed to nazi germany. but i understand that this is the failure to address the proper termination of 4 is leading to a conflict that's i guess, the point. absolutely. conflict domination is a such an important aspect of, of the whole conflict process. you see, it's not a question of leaving it that a conflict resolution. no wonder what it does. delma the nation, the right time. and then taking it beyond in resolution to make sure that it is a comprehensive solution which comes about it addresses not just the military, not just to put it to go, but the psychological aspects, as far as the, the ego of the people, most of the civilized vision is concerned, none of this happen right, in this case, i strongly don't see that there are 1989 onwards. victoria sir. western word are did wish russia becky eastwards,

i'm in the making sure that their comprehensive national bar did not emerge that levels debit raise and means of doing it. one of them was, of course, economic. the other was military militarily, to ensure that russia reduces his own. it's a minute paula. but the most important aspect was psychological. the try again in impose under our son side that they will not come back ever again. but that i think somehow was it mistake both the biden and as it sounds, can ministration are portraying these were in very ontological terms. for zalinski, it's a and that is essential, fight a free them versus terrorism or tyranny. the biden administration describes this as a struggle between the forces of democracy and the forces of authoritarian is more to tell the terrorism. i wonder if there could be any psychological resolution for the ukrainians or the americans. for that matter,

when the conflict is framed in those terms, the ultimate forces of good against the ultimate forces of evil and by the letter they mean russia. what kind of a psychological resolution could be there with the demo? this is one of those that was where i find it very difficult to find the villain. and i am finding today that both sides are to blame as far as the water's surface contract or butter as far as the stores water. as far as, as the instigation is concerned, i do put a good to blame on the, on the metal side. because i do feel that a weak done in a, in a war. and the cold water was as much a water i as, as the 1st world war, the 2nd world war to week to, at the end of a war, needs to be magnanimous in don's of his rec, greedy. and what he did achieve at the end of the day he has to ensure that warm

does not return to the same zone. again. i don't think the west i don't think natal looked through this, did not analyze it through to see that psychologically they were creating it is set of people whose basic ideologies would essential. existence with honor and pride was being ground. our was being brought up under the mother earth and that this lot would rise again, maybe not on as quickly as germany did. but some day it would rise again, and the russian side has risen much faster than that and actually has come back in the matter of just 24 years when 2014 you saw with her and that the proxy war started. so that the end of the day, i still feel that, i mean, to answer the question that it, he had the end of the day. i still feel dead now. it is none of what has been spoken by the united states all by ukraine is actually go there fighting a war,

essentially to prevent the. but it done the resurgence of russian power once again in, in this region and to and saw that that is, was born to the fathers limits as far as it is, it's possible the only solution to it is to ensure a ceasefire. come to the table. it will be a long drawn out engagement process. this is not going to be about dead. it be just not going to be about national board or anything is going to be about existence. now general, most of our viewers and not strategies, and i wonder if you can give us a sense of how decision makers are drive a balance of pushing against an unpleasant neighbor. but also not going too far and not allowing others to exploit your legitimate grove. and grievances for their own aims. i guess i'm asking you about how to delineate your own war from the

wars that others want you to fight for this. this is a central responsibility with decision makers have a bad or is. and they have to ensure that ended and to the, as i'm really when the, i don't know, be small and they don't was the them did not all what step and did not go beyond the because this can lead to something just get escalate or something. but just thought beyond what example 4 months ago, 3 months ago, we were finding that the steps moving to a nuclear engagement, becoming more and more tedious. we were finding present boot and talking about it very often, although the little side would not need 5 of much more responsible about that. but the russian side that they put really with the counter offensive having started from the ukranian side, they were on the back foot. and that of a diamond you can the statement to be made. no, that has stopped. that is mostly please stop and obviously some kind of

a sense of responsibility have done. what i want to highlight, viewers is if we are living in a world of information, what in dense information walker perception management, communication strategy. this is going to make war fighting that much more complex because it have to do it. no one knows what the group is. what is coming up in the western media to dan, dumb the, the situation in ukraine. dwight necessarily have to believe it does. what does we spoken about in russia? do i, i don't necessarily believe it. i have to get the right information to understand why. and that is not coming by. we, i, this is going to be a challenge in the future, in other wars. thinking about all our future. 6 work there is one potential conflict that a lot of international media talking about i'm, i mean the,

the suppose an intention of beijing to take control over a tie one and taking stalk of the, at times quite provocative american diplomacy. it's a, it's hard for me to figure out whether the americans actually went to prevent that from happening or whether they are trying to act china on to push it into action and to create a pretext for brother confrontation with beijing. what's your sense of it? is you, ma'am about me can give specific good reference to the visit of the you a speaker, nancy b u n t u o n, and or di one a matter of what 4 months on maybe 5 months ago and the pool cushion which, which, which came about at that time is that the best example understand this whole situation. i think the us at once did i for the u. s. was all players cards. and that it was a very provocative. it was taking a fed, a deep risk. and in the situation of what was happening on euclid and suddenly

challenge china right on his doorstep. it was a best perfect kind of a situation with develop gator. when i, when i discussed this, when i, when i analyzed as deep up, i realised that, that the united states was really not taking a risk. it was perhaps convinced that there would be really noticed once it was testing diana, it was psychologically but i, we think it was pushing it back and making china feel that it was not capable of responding conventionally to the united states challenge. it was no doubt. it risk which had been taken at that particular time and all of us perceived it but, but the united states came out. we're not the winner. there's no good or lose it in this kind of situation. but definitely came out of the dominant ball. and that sent home a message very strongly to bridging at a particular time. this is just on the time of the brent gardner of the, of the chinese communist party. that was also one of the but the important factors

which was playing in china that it had to remain in this place. while what was happening, a new plan was resolved on the other front. i know that the india has a quite a long list of grievances with china and it is also being quarantined by the americans to build this sort of counterbalance against china, both within the framework of quad and possibly al. cuz do you think the indian leadership is balance enough to know where it's this is a big pick up its own battles to, you know, defendants interest. but you know, without a, you know, providing some unnecessary services war services for the americans. thank you for that question. as an excellent wish, and i would say a bit, i think you'll mind back to 1990 and ended $91.00 india was down to his last $1000000000.00 of foreign exchange reserves. we're new m m and as a nation we read down down in the dumps dynamic looking at becoming

a $10000000000.00 economy by 2035. i've been single minded living and leadership is looking at a quantitative upgrade. ation of the quality of life of the indian citizens in the future. we are not interested or we have got a trench coming on our borders. eagle church in don't really coming to be delivered to us. but india is the last mission which route one to we would want to make sure that we align ourselves or distribute, say, we can engage with many others who can come to what assistance if it comes to this q situations on our, on our borders. and i think this relationship with the united states is based on that. it's a strategic relationship. we are, well, we're not b, b, a not provoking china in any way. we are making strong statements primarily to exercise our right to get out of china. that it is acting aggressively on the borders and it could be risky. pool, large emissions to nuclear power,

to nuclear weaponized nations cannot afford to do this kind of for the that's the message which is going out to china. but at the same time, we are lining the do not just did strategically, because we feel that the half dull and short a balance in our, in our approach, our relationship with russia is very strong. most of our materially go point it all comes from russia is very important for us from and then that relationship. and you can see that india is also a member of the shang cooperation organization. as c e o, we are a member of that along with russia. gina, in fact of meeting future meeting is about to take place in one of us bits of the state of gore, in the very near future where all these countries i'm going to be loaded up. we have to leave it here. our time is out. i'm very, very grateful for your conversation and participation in our program today. it was a most enjoyable conversation that i had, and i thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to hear again on will

depart, ah, with ah, ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a lot to future generations. but our physical museum spaces themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world. uh huh. in saint petersburg, how roughly is the director here? and i bet he has met a.