long rejected more as a legitimate force of action that governments continue investing in new armaments and larger armies, therefore, affirming with a text or money that's more is still a continuation of politics or geo politics. by other means, can the fear and moral rejection of more obscure something, hidden and perpetrating about its nature. well, to discuss that, i am now joined, but so yet a ta, his name, a retired lieutenant general, of the indian army and a former commander of the engine army in kashmir. general, and great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much. for your time, thank you very much. my pleasure to be on your program. i take it from your writing that things even the most unexpected things rarely arise out of the blue the they usually have antecedents, even if those into sentence may have been obscured. if we take the russia ukraine conflict, which you by the way described as, as

a proxy war between nature and russia. what are some of the underlying reasons for it? see, of course, it's a very, very complex geopolitical situation, which is existing there in the where you're asia, central, eastern europe, or bases like that's what we basically want to describe. but what obviously be the root cause of it goes back to 1945, 46, the end of the 2nd world war, and the subsequent cornwall, which exists for the better part of 4040 years in which the finally, the soviet union broke up. and all the states, which were part of the soviet union 15 states, the commonwealth of independent states subsequent b. i was backstage me a call, paused natal when i'm in short, the balance of power in europe bid to started joining the nato side. and it was there to florida natal, rick re military was really military weekly in the cold war, which was ching,

the former soviet union of russia backwards. there was a dollar and there was a level of dog rooms in red light which exist or it was really difficult to finding that but under no rush of continued to accept a denito offensive. or, you know, conduct of on of itself is job politics. the renewal operations are such and i'm finally stopped at do you agree? and while up every, all of the gun fees could join natal, i'm not directly threatened russia, but you'll come in becoming an integral part of it will result in dyadic trent. the russian homeland can i ask you specifically about the ukraine because we have had a lot of american political analysts and girls are writing about how. 5 critical i, ukraine, is for russia then, you know, remember that the same as virginia quote that, oh, without the ukraine,

russia can never consider itself a great power or an an empire. do you think the substance of russia's objections? do they come down to emotions and nostalgia the soviet nostalgia, or do they have sort of military strategy at their core? neither of them. i think the same quality under sir, it's, or russia was fully justified. about one thing. just russia, the only access that russia has to does, what does any read in the word is primarily the arctic circle into the arctic sea or it is on velocity was don't, was the pacific ocean. there is no other way that the russians have what access to the sea except the black sea. now in the black sea, it says it is to you to your brain that arrests our exercises. you know, what is the whole area of crimea the sea. busy evolved the porch,

texting day during order us are places like that. i strongly always have subscribe to this idea that everything is acceptable, even even a, even a land to be a trip to russia is acceptable. but leaving russia without access to the black, she is actually o king, russia is actually instigating russia responded. and this is exactly what happened . my love, why don't this particular argument is the fact that in 2015, russia went to the board of her let back here in syria, all quite not all could buy, but the book was there was deployed. there also be the ab is there? it was so important for russia because that's the only manner in which you can have access to the mediterranean, into the area of the, the gulf, and the for everybody important strategic region of the world. so russia was

essentially pursuing its strategic interest, meant in case of syria. it was doing that in accordance in agreement with the legitimate and you and recognize syrian government. and when it comes to ukraine on, one could argue that the ukraine is a sovereign nation. that is, up to itself, didn't define who it wants to be associated with, and yet you still claim that the russia on ukraine had been pushed to a health. what do you mean by that? it displays both ways. i mean, i knew seen the stance that i've been valued by the manner in which india has been in the has it can neither site is only analyzed. distantly argued for both site. and as i suspect this is a valuable because you are a distance they're attacking us. absolutely, i would say mid or justification of ne toys or to pusher eastwood's and up as, as

a democratic. right. and the nation has got the capability and the right good join . no, any other nation, any other organization, any other entity who are once it's a need for the, for its own people? and this is exactly what the new argument does. yeah. but if you really see it and real quality off to the end of the cold war, the nickel bush east towards him to the was up back soon. the former was our back zone. was all about making it almost impossible for russia ever to root by leaving at no options at the door. why the russians, we get there, where in 1989, because in the ninety's at that time, not this one. when the russian bhalla became more comprehensive, became stronger, russia started responding and that's why you perform in 2004 be rather good in

finding. just wanted a not what convention of what it is wanted with hybrid wall. this was some of the, i think i but it can bids, which was far out in grammy and the areas like that. so both sides, i've got their justification to go what they're doing and are all going to my argument only as the analyst is. that the, if both sides had made their statements through various acts arm, that's what the, what they had done. there must realize that this war is unwinnable. neither head can win. this war, american military strategy have been riding about the this idea of the proxy war as a cheaper and faster substitute for a conventional war. and i think for some time the russians have played along even though the american capabilities to shape and to influence. and sometimes distort global public opinion,

a much more superior than russia is. but i wonder if in deciding to deploy these traditional conventional force, the crumbling was aiming not only for defending its strategic interest, but also for sort of challenging this american paradigm. the perception is reality . that you reno lose war on television screens rather than on the actual battlefield actually is even more complex than what you explain at the moment. it's not just a question of a direct confrontation. what the russian side decided finally was. that it red line had been crossed, right. we, most of us who analyzing of that particular time in february last year, 24th of every, to be precise. read all the opinion because we were reading too much into how the word act shipped both the pandemic and political and i'm even thinking that no nation would probably want to war to conventional water this particular state. but

if we had gone pads deeper and understood the russian mind, we were to realised that the red lines had already been crossed and president guten, was willing to commit as conventional forces to defend russian interest in eastern europe. that is very clear other than americans are concerned there, that it would be a proxy war, that they will not to come into their own groups though we're not coming to europe in groups to just through ukraine, through the comprehensive lasher bought of ukraine. only that this will be for, i'm not sure that this is if venomous trackage, although i'm also not for american deployment or any other nettle deployment, because that will make the situation so, so dangerous that we are almost getting into the eyes of a code wardwall. but both sites now at this stage have to realised that this ward is unwinnable. it is causing misery is not that their own people is causing melodies to the whole work, the energy crisis, the vendor make economic recovery,

which is so necessary for the old one of food crisis. everything is happening. yeah . i was expecting that by the month of february, some payments start, something while that that would start moving, but now i'm getting less hopeful than what i was. now, india is home to one of the world's greatest non violent resistance tradition. but you also have one of the world's strongest armies, and i wonder how did it shape your own domestic discourse around the russian ukranian war and more generally, about the application of this conventional military capability. do you think, in, perhaps legitimize the use of force limited use of force in the eyes of the indian problem? because you also have your fair share of, you know, conflicts with your neighbors. well, very good question. indeed, we ought to be all one of the nation's suffering from getting them process that it

is them for the better part of 30 years. proxy water would just be important. gosh, me to and that's the place where i commanded my groups to some years ago. having said that, the want to have conscious of india by india, about the effects of proxy water and what it can lead broke. she was going against walk often dimensional wards at different moments. we've had our own share of this in the past couple of years. we've overcome it. so we know how dangerous proxy was in 2014. when russia decided to launch is roxy water in crimea. i'm in this general area. i'm sure you know that the russia believes that it's the ukrainian side, that the in the west, the west that initiated that crisis with the overthrow of the legitimate government . i'm fully aware of what happened in our perceptions about it, but yes, there are certain thoughts which we cannot deny. it was the question of pushing and

that push came to shove at the end and then we'll go to sponsor from the russian side. i've not justified as a public or believer on either side, but i would say the yes that i some decided not to going conventionally 2014 was not at the time when convention or water was being looked at as a means of his already gotten mixed in all that it has been got to be either what bulldog, 14 was perhaps dying with. i would say russia had bounced back supper should i visited the country? nobody would from capital moscow in, in 2015. and i got to lots of pretty g briefings. i think tanks and places that i started understanding that i should my lot better than i did lie. is that 2014 russia had been pushed and it in most about i think you would find that i older bist and to give a perception that the russia was weak, it could respond. it wanted to come back and be

a competitive organization with as far as natal, wisconsin. but that was not possible that can only be possibly russia has gives a pushback that was bad, had to start from somewhere. it started from your grand and 2014. what was it time? by which i am a russia that i should have gone in me of the russian comprehensive back to bar is leadership and strategic given at the, at all government to be in place. but having said that, the last word on that i had a surprise that the in the quantity of the russian military initially awake into conventional operations from 24th of february last year, dot game as a surprise for most of us or not rational. well, on general, let's pause here for a moment, but we will be back to the discussion in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah,

[000:00:00;00] with the with when it is, is that up with the law school you have to be on with white glove. you know, we do mom of border slap assumable african. yeah. because i thought that was good

enough. i just wondered with the social love to let you know this was the quote what, what symbol which it is word for that you will do it all good. was a, does use me bite, feet long all to do something wonderful classroom. would you do by ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is lost to future generations. but our physical museum spaces themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums of the world are human touch and st. petersburg to help roughly the director here and i bet he has smith. welcome back to world to part with a snake. retired lieutenant general of the indian army and

a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general before the break, we were discussing your perception of russia, so they're being pushed and pushed and pushed. and then finally, finding enough, well, us strengthen perhaps, perhaps a resentment you. she pushed back and you also written in one of your articles that someone should have anticipated someone within nato or someone within their western camps should have anticipated that at some stage, russia will rise and demand some dignity. isn't that true about any nation, no matter how big or small it is, that it's minimum interest need to be respected? isn't that also true in the case of ukraine when it comes to rush us offensive? it will remember when one of the 1st article that i wrote, i started the dimension of the video to the sales 1919. and i said that was the

biggest mistake that the allies made of that i'm not really getting the dignity of the defeated german state. and you saw what happened 20 years ago with and varying they came on and they rushed to nazi germany. but i understand that this was the failure to address the proper termination of for is leading to a conflict that's, i guess the point absolutely gone victim innovation is a such an important aspect of, of the whole conflict process. you see, it's not a question of leaving it that a conflict resolution. no wonder what it does, does the nation that time, and then taking it beyond in, in resolution to make sure that it is a comprehensive solution which comes about it addresses not just the military, not just a political, but the psychological aspects. as far as the, the ego of the people of the civilization is concerned. none of this happened right

. in this case, i strongly believe that the 1989 onwards, the victorious sir western word or did bush russia becky eastwards. i'm in the making sure that their comprehensive national bar did not emerge that levels different ways and means of doing it. one of them was of course, economic. the other was military religion, militarily, to ensure that russia reduces his own. it's a minute paula. for the most important aspect was psychologically the triangle in impose under our sin side that they will not come back ever again. but that i think somehow was it mistake both the biden and as the landscape ministration are portraying. these were in very ontological terms. for the landscape and that is essential flight of freedom versus terrorism or tyranny. the biden administration describes this as

a struggle between the forces of democracy and the forces of authoritarian is more to tell the terrorism. i wonder if there could be any psychological resolution for the ukrainians or the americans for that matter when the conflict is framed in those terms, the ultimate forces of good against the ultimate forces of evil and by the letter they mean russia. what kind of a psychological resolution could be there with the demo? this is one of those very was where i find it very difficult to find the william. and i am binding to that. both sides. i don't blame as far as the what is self. it's construct, oh, but what is the story? what as far as, as the instigation is concerned, i did put a greater blame on the, on the natal side because i do feel that the, we in a, in a war and the water was as much of water i as the bus. where was the 2nd world war we don't at the end of a war,

needs to be magnanimous in terms of his recreate and wanting to achieve at the end of the day, he has to ensure that war does not return to the same zone. again. i don't think the west i don't think of natal run through this, did not analyze it through the see that psychologically they were creating if it said the people whose basic ideologies was a financial existence with honor and pride, water being grown down was being brought under the mother and done this lot will rise again, maybe as germany did, but some days will raise against the russians. right. as we go, much faster than that and actually come back in a matter of just 24 years. when 2013, you saw what that the proxy was started. so at the end of the day,

i still feel that i mean to want to kinetic the end of the day. i still be dead now . it does not afford to be spoken by the united states all by ukraine is actually grew there fighting a war, essentially to prevent the breakdown that is sudden so fresh and power once again in this region and to and saw that that is, was one to the flood its limits as far as possible. the only solution to it is to ensure f use fire come to the table. it will be a long drawn out engagement process. this is not going to be about debt it be just not going to be about national board or anything is going to be about existence now general, most of our years and not a strategist. and i wonder if you can give us a sense of how decision makers arrive at the balance of pushing against an unpleasant neighbor,

but also not going too far and not allowing others to exploit your legitimate government grievances for the own aims. i guess i'm asking you about how to delineate your own war from the wars that others want you to fight for this. this is a sense of responsibility with decision makers have back or is. and they have to ensure that ended and the as i'm really when dad in victoria small and they don't was the them did not all what step and they do not go beyond the because disk and lead to something just get escalate or something. but just, you know, far beyond what example 4 months ago, 3 months ago, we were finding that the steps moving to a nuclear engagement, becoming more and more tedious. we were finding present boot and talking about it very often, although the little side would not the nit 5 of much more responsible about that. but the russian side,

particularly with the counter offensive having started from the ukranian side, they were on the back foot. and that of a diamond, these kind of statements were being made. no, that has stopped. that is mostly please stop and obviously some kind of a sense of responsibility. have it done, or what i want to highlight view it is, if we are living in a world of information, what information walker perception management, communication strategy. this is going to make war fighting that have to much more complex because of the debate. no one knows what the, what is coming up in the western media today in terms of the situation and you're going to, why necessarily have to believe it? that's what does we've spoken about in russia? do i have to necessarily believe it? i have to get the right information to understand why and that is not coming by. we are, this is going to be a challenge in the future in all are,

was speaking about all future wars. 6 there is one potential concern, does a lot of international media talking about, i mean, the, the suppose it intention of beijing to take control over time one and taking stalk of the, at times quite provocative american diplomacy. it's, it's hard for me to figure out whether the americans actually want to prevent that from happening or whether they are trying to act china on to push it into action and to create a pretext for brother confrontation with beijing. what's your sense of it is about making give special reference to the visit of the u. s. speaker, nancy, but when you, when you went to taiwan, a matter of about 4 months or maybe 5 months ago and the pro kitchen which, which, which came about at that time is that the best example to understand this whole

situation. i think you were at once did i for the us was playing is got and that it was very per walker. it was taking a very deep risk and in the situation of what was happening in your career and suddenly challenge china right on his doorstep. it was a best to for kind of a situation which was devil later when i, when i discuss this, when i, when i analyze this deep up, i realized that the united states was really not taking a risk. it was perhaps convinced that there would be really noticed once it was been di, not it was psychologically but i'll be driving. it was pushing it back and making general feel that it was not capable of responding conventionally to the united states challenge. it was no doubt at risk which had been taken at that particular time and all of us perceived it. but the but the united states came out were not do when i, there's no way or lose. i just got a supervision but definitely came out as a dominant follow that sent home

a message very strongly too busy at a particular time. this is just around the time of the brentley of congress of the, of the chinese communist party. that was also one of the, when the important factors were just playing in china that it had to remain in his place while what was happening in the grant was resolved on the other project. i know that the india has quite a long list of grievances with china and it is also being quarantined by the americans to build this sort of counterbalance against china, both within the framework of white and possibly al. cuz do you think the indian lead a ship is balance enough to know where it's sort of big it pick up its own battles to defend its interest, but without you know, providing some unnecessary services war services for the americans. thank you for that christian. as an excellent wish, and i would say a bit,

i think you'll mind back to 1990 and ended $91.00 india was down to his last $1000000000.00 of foreign exchange reserves. we're new m m and as a nation we read down down in the dumps today, and they're looking at becoming a $10000000000.00 economy by 2035. i've been single minded living and leadership is looking at a quantitative upgrade. ation of the quality of life of the indian citizens in the future. we are not interested or we have got a trench coming on our borders. eva church in don't really come in would be delivered to us. but india is the last mission which you want to we, we want to make sure that we align ourselves, or to should you say we can engage with many others who can come to what assistance if it comes to this q situations on our, on our borders and i think this relationship with the united states is based on that. it's a strategic relationship. we are to, well, we're not really, we're not,

we're walking china in any way. we are making strong statements primarily to exercise our right to get out of china. that it is acting aggressively on the borders and it could be risky to large emissions to nuclear power to nuclear weaponized nations cannot afford to do this kind of for the that's the message which is going out to china. but at the same time, we are lining the united states, but digitally because we feel that the half dull and short a balance in our, in our approach, our relationship with russia is very strong. most of our materially good point. it all comes from russia is very important for us to maintain that relationship. and you can see that india is also a member of the shang cooperation organization as c e o. we are a member of that along with russia. china, in fact of meeting future meeting is about to take place in one of us bits of the state of gore, in the very near future where all these countries i'm going to be loaded up. we have to leave it here. our time is out. i'm very,

very grateful for your conversation and participation in our program today. it was a most enjoyable conversation that i had, and i thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to hear again on, well, the part ah, with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic, a development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully,

very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with kindness plans, the u. s. for shooting down as a weather balloon which floated over u. s. territory. despite its numerous warnings that the airship does not pose any threat to american security, also ahead, left for the teaspoon of dry and for a little bit about this amount. this is just about the amount of a taste we have 1st and descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails blinds that have claim the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent iraqis, 20 years. and the u. s. invasion will be rock at the un. we continue our special