oh mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm. hello and welcome to one to part. well, most people of good will have long rejected war as a legitimate course of action that governments continued investing in new armaments and larger armies, therefore, affirming with the taxpayers money that war is still a continuation of politics or geo politics. by other means,

can the fear and moral rejection of more obscure something heathen and yet perpetuating about its nature. to discuss that, i am now joined by so yet a talk has named a retired lieutenant general of the indian army and a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general, it's great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. my pleasure to be on your program. now, i take it from your writing that things even the most unexpected things rarely arise out of the blue the. they usually have antecedents, even if those in to sentence may have been obscured. if we take the russia ukraine conflict, which you by the way described as a, as a proxy war between nature and russia. what are some of the underlying reasons for it? see, of course, it's a better complex geopolitical situation, which is existing day in eurasia, eastern europe,

of bases like that's what it would be. you want to describe it. what all the see the, the root cause of it goes back to 1945, 46, the end of the 2nd world war and of the subsequent or war which existed for the better part of the 4040 years. oh, in which to finally, the soviet union broke up and all the states which are part of the soviet union 15 states, the commonwealth of independent states, subsequent b, i'm the warsaw back states. let me go pause to nato, when i'm and short. the balance of power in europe did do started joining the neutral site and it was there to florida. near dawes, week 3 minutes. he went to the military with me in the cold war, which was pushing the former soviet union of russia backwards. there wasn't a dollar and there was a level of dog rooms in red light which exist, or it was really difficult to finding that. and the russia continued to

accept it, but now the natal offensive, old conduct of an officer of this job politic. there were no abrasions as such. and i'm finally stopped at do you agree? and while up every, all the countries could join natal, i'm not directly threatened russia, but you can in becoming an integral part of nato will result in dyadic trent, the russian homeland. can i ask you specifically about the ukraine because we have had a lot of american political analysts and girls are writing about how. 5 critical i, ukraine, is for russia and, you know, remember that the same as brzezinski quote that without the ukraine, russia can never consider itself a great power or an, an empire, de thing in the air, the substance of russia's objections do they come down to emotions and nostalgia

the soviet nostalgia, or do they have sort of military strategy at their core? neither of them, i think the same quality. and as sir, it's or russia was fully justified about wanting just russia. the only access that russia has to does. what does any read in the word is primarily the arctic circle into the arctic sea, or it is on velocity was don't do as the pacific ocean. there is no other way that the russians have got access to the sea except the black sea. now in the black sea, it's certain for this to you, cool your grain that a russia exercises the power you know, it is the whole area of crimea ah, the sea. busy evolved the porch, texting day during orders are in places like that. i strongly always have subscribe to this idea that everything is acceptable, even even a, even a land to be

a threat to russia is acceptable. but leaving russia without access to the black, she is actually o king, russia is at to me, instigating russia to respond. and this is exactly what happened. my love wind on this particular argument is the fact that in 2015, russia went to the board of her lekia in syria. oh, good bye. not all good bye, but the book was there was deployed there. also, the, the abbey is that it was so important for russia because that's the only manner in which you can have access to the mediterranean, into the area of the, the gulf and the for the important strategic region of the world. so russia was essentially pursuing a strategic interest, meant in case of syria. it was doing that in accordance in agreement with the legitimate and you and recognize syrian government. and when it comes to ukraine on,

one could argue that the ukraine is a sovereign nation. that is, up to it, south didn't define who wants to be associated with, and yet you still claim that the russia on ukraine had been pushed to a health. what do you mean by that? it displays both ways. i mean, i knew seen the stance that i've been valued by the manner in which india has been india has it, given me, the site is only analyzed. this only argued for both side effect. this is a valuable because you are a distance from the protagonist. absolutely, i would say mid or justification of nato is to porsha is drugs and up as a, as a democratic. right. and the nation has got the capability and the right. good join . any other nation, any other organization, any other entity who are, once it's

a need for the, for its own people? this is exactly what they need to argument does. yeah. but if you really see it on real quality off to the end of the cold war, the nickel bush east towards the was up back soon. the former was our back zone. was all about making it almost impossible for russia ever to root by leaving it. no options at all. why the russians we get there where in 1989 because they're bad in the ninety's at that time, not this one. when the russian bala became more comprehensive, became stronger, russia started responding and that's how you perform in 2004 be rather good in finding. just wanted a not with convention or was it just wanted with hybrid wall? this was some of the big i but it can bids, which was far out in grammy and the areas like that. so both sides,

i've got their justification to go what they're doing and are all going to my argument only as the analyst is. that if both sides had made their statements through various acts arm, that's what the, what they had done there must realize that this war is unwinnable. neither head can win. this war, american military strategy have been riding about the i this idea of the proxy war as a cheaper and faster substitute for a conventional war. and i think for some time the russians have played along, even though the american capabilities to shape and to influence and sometimes distort global public opinion, a much more superior than rushes. but i wonder if in deciding to deploy these traditional conventional force, the crumbling was aiming not only for defending if strategic interest,

but also for sort of challenging this american paradigm. the perception is reality that you reno lose war on television screens rather than on the actual battlefield . actually is even more complex than what you explained at the moment. it's not just a question of a direct confrontation. what the russian side decided finally was. that it red line had been crossed, right? we, most of us were analyzing of that, but it will die in february. last, you got 24th of every to be precise. read. although benin, because we were reading too much into how the word shaped. both the pandemic and political and i'm even thinking that no nation to be probably one of the war to conventional water this particular state. but if we had gone pads, dba and understood the russian mind, we were to realised that the red lines had already been crossed. and president wooten was willing to commit as conventional forces to defend russian interest in eastern europe. that is very clear as other americans are concerned there,

that it would be a proxy one, that they will not to come into their own groups though we're not coming to europe in groups to just through ukraine, through the comprehensive lasher bought of ukraine. only that this will be for, i'm not sure that this is if venomous trackage, although i'm also not for american deployment or any other nettle deployment, because that will make the situation so, so dangerous that we are almost getting into the eyes of a code word wall but both sites now at this stage have to realised that this ward is unwinnable. it is causing misery is not that their own people is causing miscellaneous to the whole way the energy crisis, the vendor make economic recovery, which is so necessary for the old one of food crisis. everything is happening. yeah . i was expecting that by the month of february, some payments start, something while the different start moving,

but now i'm getting less hopeful than what i was. now, india is home to one of the world's greatest non violent resistance tradition. but you also have one of the world's strongest armies, and i wonder how did it shape your own domestic discourse around the russian ukrainian war and more generally about would be applicable ition of this conventional military capability. do you think in, perhaps legitimize the use of force limited use of force in the eyes of the indian problem? because you also have your fair share of, you know, conflict with your neighbors. well, very good question. indeed, we ought to be all one of the nation's suffering from them. proceed that it is them for the better part of 30 years. it's a proxy water would just be important. gosh me to and that's the place where i commanded my groups to some years ago. having said that, no one has conscious of india by india,

about the effects of proxy water and what it can lead broke. she was going against walk, often mentioned wards at different moments. we've had our own share of this in the last couple of years. we've overcome it. so we know how dangerous proxy was in 2014, when russia decided to lunch, it brought you war in crimea. in this general area, i'm sure you know that the russia believes that it's the ukrainian side in the west or the west, the initiated that crisis with the overthrow of the legitimate government. i'm fully aware of what happened that perceptions about it. but yes, there are certain parts we cannot deny. it was the question of pushing, and that push came to shove at the end. and then we'll go to once from the auction site, i'm not justified. does the public public leave or either site, but i would say the yes, there are some decided not to go and conventionally,

2014 was not at the time when convention or water was being looked at as a means of dissolving garden flex. not that it is being looked at today either, but will be in was perhaps a dining, but i would say russia had bounced back so we should be kind of the deal concrete. nobody cooperative must go in, in 2015. and i got lots of pretty debriefings, i think tank some place that i saw other understanding that i should might, was better than i rely, is that 2014 russia had been pushed. and in most of my writing, you'll find that i always tend to give a perception that russia was a week, it could respond. it wanted to come back and be a competitive organization with as far as data was concerned. but that was not possible that can only be possible if russia has gives a push back. that was about head start from somewhere. it started from your grand 2000. and what was it time?

by which i am russia, then i shall be economy russian. comprehensive back to wall is leadership and gave me these are all coming to be in place. but having said that, the last right on that i was surprised that be in the quantity of the russian military make initially, adobe into conventional operations from 24th of february last year, dot game as a surprise to most of us or not rational rep. well, on general, let's pause here for a moment, but we will be back to the discussion in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah, hughes eames are important for preserving our history so that it is a loss to future generations. but our physical museums, places themselves

a relic of the past. this is what are the best museums of the world or human touch in saint petersburg? to help refuse the director here and i bet he has met with ah welcome back to worlds apartments. i had a house name, a retired lieutenant general of the indian army, and a former commander of the indian army english near general. before the break we were discussing your perception of russia, so they're being pushed and pushed and pushed. and then finally, finding enough well, strengthened to have perhaps

a resentment to you. she push back. and you also written in one of your articles that someone should have anticipated someone within nato or someone within the western camps should have anticipated that at some stage, russia will rise in demand some dignity. isn't that true about any nation, no matter how big or small it is that it's minimum interest need to be respected? isn't that also true in the case of ukraine when it comes to russia offensive? it will remember when one of the 1st article that i wrote, i started the dimension of the video to the science, the ending id. and i said that was the biggest mistake that the allies made of that i'm not reading the dignity of the defeated german state and you saw what happened or indian it over with. well, we're not in varying thinking what in the russian to not to germany, but i understand that this is the failure to address the proper termination of war

is leading to a conflict that's i gag in the point. absolutely gone victim innovation is a such an important aspect of, of the whole conflict process. you see, it's not a question of leaving it that a conflict resolution. know what the, what it does dome of the nation that i think and then taking it beyond in resolution to make sure that it is a comprehensive solution which comes about it addresses not just the military, not just to put it to go. but the psychological aspects, as far as the, the ego of the people, most of the civilized vision is concerned. none of this happened right in this case, i strongly don't see that the 1989 on the woods, the victoria sir western word or did wish to russia back eastwards. i mean the making sure that their comprehensive national bar did not

emerge that levels. david risen means of doing it. one of them was of course economic. the other was military little militarily to ensure that russia, you know, reduces his own. it's a bala, for the most important aspect, was psychological. the triangle in impose on the russian side that they will not come back ever again. but that i think somehow was it mistake both the biden and as announced kent ministration are portraying these were in very ontological terms. for zalinski, it's a and that's essential flight of freedom versus terrorism with tyranny. the biden administration describes this as a struggle between the forces of democracy and the forces of authoritarian is more to tell the terrorism. i wonder if there could be any psychological resolution for the ukrainians or the americans for that matter when the conflict is framed in

those terms, the ultimate forces of good against the ultimate forces of evil and by the letter they mean russia. what kind of a psychological resolution could be there with the demo? one of those very was where i find it very difficult to find the william. and i am finding tool that both sides are to blame as far as the what is self concept or but what is the point towards what as far as the instigation is concerned, i did put a greater blame on the, on the nato side because i will feel that the written in a, in a war and the water was as much a water i as was what was the 2nd world war we don't at the end of a war needs to be magnanimous in terms of his recreate and wanting to achieve at the end of the day he has to ensure that war does not return to the same zone again

. i don't think the west i don't think natal run through this. did not analyze it through the see that psychologically they were creating if it's set up people whose basic ideologies would essential existence with honor and pride, water being grown down was being brought under the mother and that this lot will rise again, maybe as germany did. but some days will raise against the russians, right? as we go, much faster than that and actually come back in a matter of just 24 years. when 2013, you saw water that the proxy was started. so at the end of the day, i still feel that i mean to, on, to the genetic end of the day, as we did now, it does not of what is being spoken by the united states all by you actually grew there fighting a war essentially to prevent the re done. that is surgeon of russian power once

again in this region and to and saw that that is, was born to the flood its limits as far as possible. the only solution to it is to ensure f use fire come to the table. it will be a long drawn out engagement process. this is not going to be about debt. it be just not going to be about national board or anything is going to be about existence. now general, most of our viewers and not strategies, and i wonder if you can give us a sense of how decision makers arrive at the balance of pushing against an unpleasant neighbor. but also not going too far and not allowing others to exploit your legitimate grove. and grievances for the own aims. i guess i'm asking you about how to delineate your own war from the wars that others want you to fight for

this. this is a sense of responsibility with decision makers have back or is. and they have to ensure that ended and to the, as i'm really when dad in a bit more in that was the of them did not all what step and they do not go beyond the because this can lead to something just get escalate or something. but just, you know, far beyond, for example, 4 months ago, 3 months ago, we were finding that the steps moving to a nuclear engagement, becoming more and more tedious. we were finding president boot and talking about it very often, although the little side would not the next 5 of much more responsible about that. but the russian side that's been put, relieved with the counter offensive. having started from the ukranian side, they were on the back foot and that of a diamond, you can the statement to be made. no, that has stopped. that is mostly please stop. and obviously some kind of a sense of responsibility have done what i want to highlight. view it is if we are

living in a world of information, what in denison formation? walker perception management communication scratch. this is going to make war fighting that much more complex because it have to do it. no one knows what the coaches, what is coming out in the western media to dan dumble. the situation in ukraine. dwight necessarily have to believe it does. what does we spoken about in russia? do i, i don't necessarily believe it. i have to get the right information to understand why. and that is not coming by. we, i, this is going to be a challenge in the future in all or was thinking about all our future. 6 work there is one potential conflict that a lot of international media talking about i'm, i mean the, the suppose an intention of beijing to take control over a tie one and taking stalk of the,

at times quite provocative american diplomacy. it's a, it's hard for me to figure out whether the americans actually went to prevent that from happening or whether they are trying to act china on to push it into action and to create a pretext from brother confrontation with beijing. what's your sense of it? is you, ma'am about me can give specific good reference to the visit of the you a speaker and nancy, because you went, you went into di one a matter of what 4 months on maybe 5 months ago and the pool cushion which, which, which came about at that time, that's the best example to understand this whole situation. i think the us at once did i failed to us was all players cards. and that it was a very provocative. it was taking a bed, a deep risk. and in the situation of what was happening and euclid and suddenly challenge china right on his doorstep. it was a best perfect kind of

a situation with developing gator. when i, when i discussed this, when i, when i analyzed as deep up, i realised that that the united states was really not taking a risk. it was perhaps convinced that there would be really northern spots. it was best didn't die, not it was psychologically but i, we teach, i think it was pushing it back and making china feel that it was not capable of responding conventionally to the united states challenge. it was no doubt it risk which had been taken at that particular time and all of us perceived it but, but the united states came out. we're not the winner. there's no good or lose it in the scope of supervision, but definitely came out of the dominant ball. and that sent home a message very strongly to bridging at a particular time. this is just on the time of the brenda goddess of the, of the chinese communist party. that was also one of the but the important factors which was playing in china that it had to remain in this place. while what was

happening, a new plan was resolved on the other front. i know that the india has a quite a long list of grievances with china and it is also being quarantined by the americans to build this sort of counterbalance against china, both within the framework of quad and possibly al. because do you think the indian leadership is balanced enough to know where it's it to sort of pick up its own battles to, you know, defendants interest. but you know, without a, you know, providing some unnecessary services war services for the americans. thank you for that question. as an excellent wish, and i would say a bit, i think you'll mind back to 1990 and ended $91.00 india was down to his last $1000000000.00 of foreign exchange reserves. we're new m m and as a nation we read down down in the dumps. today they're looking at becoming

a $10000000000.00 economy by 2035. how do single minded living and leadership is looking at a quantitative upgrade? ation of the quality of life of the indian citizens in the future. we are not interested or we have got a trench coming on our borders. eagle church in don't really come in would be delivered to us. but india is the last mission which route want to we would want to make sure that we align ourselves, or should you say we can engage with many others who can come to what assistance if it comes to this q situations on our, on our borders. and i think this relationship with the united states is based on that. it's a strategic relationship. we are, well, we're not really, we're not provoking china in any way. we are making strong statements primarily to exercise our right to get out of china. that it is acting aggressively on the borders and it could be risky to large emissions to nuclear power to nuclear weaponized nations cannot afford to do this kind of the that's the message which is

going out to china. but at the same time, we are lining the united states, particularly because we feel that the half dull and short a balance in our, in our approach, our relationship with russia is very strong. most of our materially opened it all comes from russia, is very important for us to maintain that relationship. and you can see that india is also a member of the shang cooperation organization as c e o. we are a member of that along with russia. gina, in fact of meeting future meeting is about to take place in one of us bits of the state of gore, in the very near future where all these countries i'm going to be loaded up. we have to leave it here. our time is out. i'm very, very grateful for your conversation and participation in our program today. it was a most enjoyable conversation that i had, and i thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to sir, again on well, the part with

. mm hm. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with

ah staging. hassan washington for shooting down what it's called a chinese weather balloon that drifted over the us despite new miss assurances that it was a threat. also had this our less than a teaspoon of dry hand to write a little bit about this amount. this is just about the amount of a teaspoon. we have 1st hand descriptions of biological weapons, factories on wheels and on rails, called the top claim, the life of hundreds of thousands of innocent iraqis, 20 years on cynthia, post the invasion of iraq. the un we, we kept the legacy of the devastating.