ah ah hello and welcome to was apart. well, most people of goodwill have long rejected war as a legitimate course of action that governments continue investing in new armaments and larger armies, therefore, affirming with the taxpayers money that more is still a continuation of politics or geo politics. by other means, can the fear and moral rejection of more obscure something heathen and perpetuating

about its nature. to discuss that, i am now joined by so yet a talk has named a retired lieutenant general of the indian army and a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general, it's great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. my pleasure to be on your program. now, i take it from your writing, the things even the most unexpected things rarely arise out of the blue the. they usually have antecedents, even if those in to sit in may have been obscured. if we take the russia ukraine conflict, which you by the way, described as a, as a proxy war between nature and russia. what are some of the underlying reasons for it? see, of course, it's a betty complex geopolitical situation, but just existing day in eurasia, central eastern europe, of bases like that's what we basically want to describe it. what always be the, the root cause of it goes back to 1945, 46,

the end of the 2nd world war and up the subsequent order war which exist said for the better part of the 44 years. oh, in which to finally, the soviet union broke up and all the stitch witcher were part of the soviet union . 15 states the commonwealth of independence date subsequent b. a was all back states, all paused or nato when i'm and short. the balance of power in europe did to started joining the near to say, and it was there to florida near doors. rick remitted keywords in the military with me in the cold war, which was pushing the former soviet union of russia backwards. there was a dollar and there was a level of dog rooms in red light which exist or it was really difficult to finding that bit of a rush of continued to accept it up. now denito, offensive, old conduct of an officer of this job politics domino, operations are such,

and i'm finally stopped at. do you agree and why love every, all the countries could join natal? i'm not directly threatened russia, but jewel cleaned becoming an integral part of it or would result in direct threat will be a russian. oh, glad can i ask you specifically about the ukraine because we have had a lot of american political analysts and girls are writing about how critical i ukraine is for russia. and, you know, remember that the famous brzezinski quote that without ukraine, russia can never consider itself a great power or an an empire. do you think the and the substance of russia's objections, do they come down to motions in a style journal, the soviet nostalgia, or do they have said of military strategy at their core?

neither of them. i think the same quality under sir, it's, or russia was fully justified about wanting just to russia. the only access that russia has to does want those anywhere in the were, is primarily the arctic circle into the arctic sea, or it is on velocity was don't, was the pacific ocean. there are no other way that the russians have access to the sea, except the black sea. now in the black sea, it certain for dest, you cool your grain, that russia exercises the power, you know, is the whole area of crimea, ah, the sea of ours, all the porch, exciting day during orders are in places like that. i strongly always have subscribe to this idea that everything is acceptable, even even a, even a land based trip to russia is acceptable. but leaving russia without access to the black, she is actually o king, russia is at to me,

instigating russia to respond. and this is exactly what happened. my love wind on this particular argument is the fact that in 2015, russia went to the port offered lekia in syria. or why not all could why, but the book was there was deployed. there also be the ad based there. it was so important for russia because that's the only manner in which you can have access to the mediterranean, into the area of the, the gulf and the for the important strategic region of the world. so russia was essentially air for seeing it strategic interest meant in case of syria. it was doing that in accordance in agreement with the legitimate and recognized syrian government. and when it comes to ukraine on, one could argue that the ukraine is a sovereign nation, that it is up to itself to didn't define who it wants to be

associated with. and yet, you still claim that russia on ukraine had been pushed to a health. what do you mean by that? it displays will tweets. i mean, i knew seen the stance that i go in value by the manner in which india has been the south. india has it, given me the site is only analyzed is only argued for both site and as i respect, this is a valuable because you are a distance and a protagonist. absolutely, yeah, i would say mid or justification of nato is to portia, is drugs. and as, as a democratic right, and the nation has got the capability and the right good join. any other nation, any other organization than the other entity who are once it's a need for the, for its own people. this is exactly what the new argument does. you know,

but if you really see it on real quality of to the end of the cold war, the nickel bush east towards the was up back soon. the vamos, or back zone, was all about making it almost impossible for russia ever to root by leaving at no options at door. why is the right shows? we get the red and 989 because in the 90s at that time, not this one. when the russian bala became more comprehensive, became stronger, russia started responding and that's why you performed in 2000 and will be present to didn't finding just wanted a not with conventional wall it is wanted with hybrid wall. this was some of the i think i but it can be used which was for about and grammy and the areas like that. so both sides. i've got their justification to go what they're doing and are all good one to my argument only as a analyst is that if both sides had made their statements through various

acts or armed acts, whatever they had done, there must realize that this war is unwinnable. neither head can, when the american military strategist have been riding about the this idea of the proxy war as a cheaper and faster substitute for a conventional war. and i think for some time the russians have played along, even though the american capabilities to shape and to influence and sometimes distort global public opinion, a much more superior than rushes. but i wonder if in deciding to deploy these traditional conventional force, the crumbling was aiming not only for defending its strategic interest, but also for sort of challenging this american paradigm. the perception is reality that you reno lose war on television screens rather than on the actual battlefield

. actually is even more complex than what you explained at the moment. it's not just a question of a direct confrontation. what the russian side decided finally was. that it red line had been crossed, right. we, both of us were analyzing of that particular dime in february last year or 24th of every to be precise. read although benin, because we were reading too much into how the word shaped. both the pandemic and political and i'm even thinking that no nation to be probably one of the war to conventional water this particular state. but if we had gone pads, dba and understood the russian mind, we were to realised that the red lines had already been crossed. and president wooten was willing to commit as conventional forces to defend russian interest in eastern europe. that is very clear other than americans are concerned there that it would be a proxy war,

that they will not come into their own groups over not coming to europe in groups to just through ukraine, through the comprehensive rational bought of ukraine. only that this would be for, i'm not sure that this is if venomous packaged, although i'm also not for american deployment or any other natal deployment, because that will make the situation so, so dangerous that we are almost getting into the eyes of a code. we're wall, but a boat sites now at this stage, have to realised that this ward is unwinnable. it is causing misery is not that there won't be, will it's causing milanese to hold where the energy crisis, the vendor make economic recovery, which is so necessary for the old one. it full, the crisis. everything is happening. yeah. i was affecting that by the month of february, some payments start, something while the different start moving, but now i'm getting less hopeful than what i was. now, india is home to one of the world's greatest non violent resistance tradition. but

you also have one of their will, strongest armies, and i wonder how did it shape your own domestic discourse around the russian ukranian war and more generally, about the application of this conventional military capability. do you think, in perhaps legitimize the use of force, the limited use of force in the eyes of the indian problem? because you also have your fair share of, you know, conflicts with your neighbors were very good question. indeed, we ought to be one of the nation's suffering from get rid of them, proceed better them for the better part of 30 years. it's a proxy water would just be important, gosh me to and that's the place when i commanded my groups to some years ago. having said that, the no one has conscious of india by india, about the effects of proxy water and what it can lead broke. she was going against

walk off conventional wards at different moments. we've had our own share of this in the last couple of years. we've overcome it, so we know how dangerous proxy was in 2014 when russia decided to lunch in rocky war in crimea. in this general area, i'm sure you know that the russia believes that it's the ukrainian side in the west or the west, the initiated that crisis with the overthrow of the legitimate government. i'm fully aware of what happened that perceptions about it. but yes, there are certain products we cannot deny. it was the question of pushing and that push into a shop at the end. and then we'll do this once from that auction site. i'm not justified as a public public lever on either side. but i would say the yes, there are some decided not to go in conventionally to tell them who was not at the time when convention or water was being looked at as a means of dissolving garden flex. not that it is being looked at today either. but

will be in was perhaps a dining, but i would say russia had bounced back, somebody should be able to do a concrete nobody cooperative must go in in 2015 and i got lots of pretty g briefings. i think tank some place. so glad i saw other understanding that you might be better that i realized that 2014 russia had been pushed. and it, in most of my writing, you will find that i orvis tend to give a perception that the russia was a week. it could respond, it wanted to come back and be a competitive organization with as far as data was concerned, the doubles not possible. that can only be possible if russia has gives a push back. pushback had to start from somewhere. it started from ukraine, that 2000 will be what was it time? by which i am russia, that i should have gotten me russian comprehensive back to wow. it's leadership and

gave me these are all government to be in place. but having said that, the last read on that i was surprised that be in the quality of the russian military make initially ed week into conventional operations from 24th of february last year dot game. as a surprise, most of us in mold russian forces. while our general, let's pause here for a moment, but we will be back to the discussion in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah with

welcome back to we'll depart with a huss, nane retired lieutenant general of the indian army and a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general before the break, we were discussing your perception of russia, so they're being pushed and pushed and pushed. and then finally, finding enough well, strengthened perhaps, perhaps a resentment you to push back. and you've also written in one of your articles that someone should have anticipated someone within nato or someone within their western camps should have anticipated that at some stage, russia will rise and demand some dignity. isn't that true about any nation, no matter how big or small it is, that it's minimum interest need to be respected?

isn't that also true? in the case of ukraine when it comes to russia's offensive? it will remember when one of the 1st article that i wrote, i started the dimension of the video to the science and in 19, and i said that was the biggest mistake that the allies made of that i'm not really getting the dignity of the defeated german state and you saw what happened or indian it over with? well, we are not in varying thinking what in the russian to nazi germany. but i understand that this is the failure to address the proper termination of 4 is leading to a conflict that's, i guess, the point. absolutely. conflict domination is a such an important aspect of, of the whole conflict process. you see, it's not a question of leaving it that a conflict resolution. no wonder what it does, does the nation that time, and then taking it beyond in resolution to make sure that it is a comprehensive solution which comes about it addresses not just the military,

not just to put it to go, but the psychological aspects, as far as the, the ego of the people of the civilized vision, this concert. none of this happened right. in this case, i strongly don't see that the 1989 onwards, the victorious sir western word or did wish russia becky eastwards. i'm in the making sure that their comprehensive national bar did not emerge that levels did raise and means of doing it. one of them was of course economic. the other was military militarily to ensure that russia reduces its own. it's a military bala where the most important aspect was psychological. the try again in impose under our son side that they will not come back ever again. but that i think somehow was it mistake both the biden and as it sounds,

can ministration are portraying these were in very ontological terms. for savanski, it's a it, sir, that is essential, fight a free them versus a terrorism with tyranny. the biden administration describes this as a struggle between the forces of democracy and the forces of authoritarian is more to tell the terrorism. i wonder if there could be any psychological resolution for the ukrainians or the americans. for that matter, when the conflict is framed in those terms, the ultimate forces of good against the ultimate forces of evil and by the letter they mean russia. what kind of a psychological resolution could be there with the demo? one of those very was where i find it very difficult to find the william and i am binding to that. both sides are to blame as far as the war is jennifer construct. oh, but what is the point towards what as far as the instigation is concerned,

i did put a greater blame on the on the natal side because i do feel that the with in a, in a war and the water was as much of water i as the bus, the, where was the 2nd world war we don't, at the end of a war, needs to be making that i'm us in terms of his retreat and wanting to achieve at the end of the day. he has to ensure that war does not return to the same zone again. i don't think to west, i don't think of natal run through this. did not analyze it through the see that psychologically they were creating if it's set up people whose best i do, all of these was a financial existence with honor and pride was to be growing down was being brought under the mother and that this lot will rise again, maybe as germany did,

but some days will rise again the russian side as with much faster than that, and actually come back in a matter of just 24 years. when 2013, you saw that the proxy was started. so by the end of the day, i still feel that i mean, to want to kinetic the end of the day as didn't be dead. now it does not know what is be spoken by the united states all by ukraine is actually grew there fighting a war, essentially to prevent the don that is sudden so fresh and power once again in this region and to and saw that that is, was born to the flood its limits as far as this possible. the only solution to it is to ensure f use fire gumble the table. it will be a long drawn out engagement process. this is not going to be about debt it be just not going to be about national board or anything is going to be about existence.

now general, most of our viewers and not strategies, and i wonder if you can give us a sense of how decision makers arrive at the balance of pushing against an unpleasant neighbor. but also not going too far and not allowing others to exploit your legitimate grove. and grievances for the own aims. i guess i'm asking you about how to delineate your own war from the wars that others want you to fight for this. this is a central responsibility. what decision makers have back or is and they have to ensure that ended and to the, as i'm really when dad in a big tony of small and they don't was the, as i'm did not all what step and did not go beyond. because this can lead to something just get escalate or something but just thought be on for example, 4 months ago, 3 months ago we were finding that the steps moving to

a nuclear engagement, becoming more and more serious. we were finding president boot and talking about it very often, although the little side would not need 5 of much more responsible about that. but the russian side, particularly with the counter offensives, having started from the ukranian side, they were on the back foot. and that of a diamond, these kind of statements were being made, know that has struck that us mostly please stop. and obviously some kind of a sense of responsibility has a return or what i want to highlight view it is if we are living in a world of information, what inc. dense information warfare, perception management, communication, scratch. this is going to make war fighting that much more complex because of the boot. no one knows what the group is. what is coming out in the western media to didn't dump the the situation in ukraine. dwight, necessarily have to believe it does. what does we spoken about in russia?

do i have to necessarily believe it? i have to get the right information to understand why and that is not coming by. we i, this is going to be a challenge in the future. in other wars, thinking about all our future work, there is one potential conflict that a lot of international media talking about. i'm, i mean, the, the suppose an intention of beijing to take control over taiwan and taking stalk of the, at times quite provocative american diplomacy. it's a, it's hard for me to figure out whether the americans actually want to prevent that from happening or whether they are trying to act china on to push it into action and your creed and pre tax from brother confrontation with beijing. what's your sense of it? is you, ma'am? well, we can give specific good reference to the visit of the you, a speaker and nancy book you went, you went into dye one

a matter of about 4 months on maybe 5 months ago. and the pro cushion which, which, which came about at that time is the best example to understand this whole situation. i think the u. s. ad once did i for the u. s. was all players cards. and that it was a very provocative. it was taking a pretty deep risk and in the situation of what was happening, a nuclear and suddenly challenge china right on his doorstep. it was the best of kind of a situation with developing greater when i, when i discussed this, when i, when i analyzed as deep up, i realised that, that the united states was really not taking a risk. it was perhaps convinced that there would be really northern spots. it was best didn't die, not it was psychologically but i, we think it was pushing it back and making china feel that it was not capable of responding in wrench lead to the united states challenge. it was no doubt it risk

which had been taken at that particular time and all of us perceived it but, but the united states came out. we're not the winner. there's no good or lose it in the scope of supervision, but definitely came out of the dominant ball. and that sent home a message very strongly to bridging at a particular time. this is just on the time of the brenda, calmness of the, of the chinese communist party. that was also one of the but the important factors which was playing in dead china that it had to remain in this place. while what was happening, a new plan was resolved on the other fact. i know that the india has a quite a long list of grievances with china and it is also being quarantined by the americans to build this sort of counterbalance against china, both within the framework of quad and possibly al. cuz do you think the indian leadership is balanced enough to know where it's to sort of pick up its own battles

to you know, defendant's interest, but you know, without and, you know, providing some unnecessary services war services for the americans. thank you for that question. as an excellent wish, and i would say a bit, i think you'll mind back to 1990 and ended $91.00 india was down to his last $1000000000.00 of foreign exchange reserves. we're new m m and as a nation we read down down in the dumps dynamic looking at becoming a $10000000000.00 economy by 2035. how do single minded living and leadership is looking at a quantitative upgrade? ation of the quality of life of the indian citizens in the future. we are not interested or we want trish coming on our borders of church in don't really come in would be delivered to us. but india is the last mission, but you want to, we are in want to make sure that we align ourselves, or to should you say we can engage with many others who can come to what assistance

if it comes to this q situations on our, on our borders, and i think this relationship with the united states is based on that. it's a strategic relationship we ought to. well, we're not really, we're not provoking china in any way. we are making strong statements primarily to exercise our right to get china. that it is acting aggressively on the borders and it could be risky for large emissions to nuclear power to nuclear weaponized nations cannot afford to do this kind of for the that's the message which is going out to china. but at the same time, we are lining the united states, particularly because we feel that v half to and short a balance in our, in our approach, our relationship with russia is very strong. most of our materially good point. it all comes from russia is very important for us to maintain that relationship. and you can see that india is also a member of the shang cooperation organization as c e o. we are

a member of that along with russia. china, in fact of meeting future meeting is about to take place in one of us bits of the state of gore, in the very near future where all these countries i'm going to be loaded up. we have to leave it here. our time is out. i'm very, very grateful for your conversation and participation in our program today. it was a most enjoyable conversation that i had, and i thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to hear again on worlds apart. ah, with

a with, with the clinicians with i'm no go, you know, if there was a big deal back last year, we do a little social some, a lot of money on this globally. they're called what, what sandwich is work for those who will do a bite, b, loan, all a good you too bye. ah

ah, baking slams washington pushing things down. would it call the chinese weather balloon that drifted over the year when, if by numerous assurances but they did not pose a threat? as well as former prime minister revealed was coordinated by the west and his efforts to mediate at peace still for ukraine last year. which ultimately failed the washington pulled the plug. also ahead with less than a teaspoon of dry hand to write little bit about this amount. this is just about the amount of a teaspoon we have 1st and description of biological weapons factories on we'll.