the me ah, hello and welcome to was a hard while most people of goodwill, how long rejected war as a legitimate force of action that governments continue investing in new armaments and larger armies, therefore, affirming with the taxpayers money that's more is still a continuation of politics or geo politics, by other means, can the fear and moral rejection of more obscure something, hid them, and perpetuating about its nature. well, to discuss that i'm now joined by so yet a tom, his name, a retired lieutenant general of the engine army and a former commander of the engine army in shmear general. it's a great pleasure, great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much. for your time, thank you very much. my pleasure to be on your program. i take it from your writing that things even the most unexpected things rarely arise out of the blue the they

usually have antecedents, even if those into sentence may have been obscured. if we take the russia ukraine conflict, which you, by the way described as, as a proxy war between nature and russia. what are some of the underlying reasons for it? see, of course, it's a very, very complex geopolitical situation because existing day in eurasia, central eastern europe or bases like that's what we basically want to describe. but what obviously be the root cause of it goes back to 1945, 46, the end of the 2nd world war, and the subsequent cornwall, which exists for the better part of 4040 years in which the finally, the soviet union broke up. and all the states which were part of the soviet union, 15 states, the commonwealth of independent states, subsequent b underwater, back states me, mr. natal,

one and short the balance of power in europe dead to started joining the neutral site. and it was there to florida near dawes week green minute keywords in the military week be in the cold war, which was pushing the former soviet union of russia backwards. there wasn't a dollar and there was a level of dog rooms at red light which exist or it was really difficult to finding that, but under no rush of continued to accept a denito offensive. or, you know, conduct of on of itself is job politics. the renewal operations are such and i'm finally stopped at, do you agree? and while up every, all of the gun fees could join nato and not directly threaten russia, but you can in becoming an integral part of nato will result in dyadic trent. the russian homeland, can i ask her specifically about the ukraine?

because we have had a lot of american political analysts and girls are writing about how critical i ukraine is for russia. and, you know, remember that the same as virginia quote that without the ukraine, russia can never consider itself a great power or an, an empire. de thing in the air, the substance of russia's objections, do they come down to emotions and nostalgia, the soviet nostalgia, or do they have sort of military strategy at their core? neither of them. i think the same quality under sir, it's, or russia was fully justified about one just to russia, the only access that russia has to does. what does any read the word is primarily the arctic circle into the arctic sea or it is on velocity was stopped, was the pacific ocean. there are no other way that the russians have access to the

sea except the black sea. now in the black sea itself, it is too cool your grain that russia exercises the power, you know, what is the whole area of crimea? i'm the ceo. busy valve, the porch, exciting day during orders are the places like that. i strongly always have subscribe to this idea that everything is acceptable, even even a, even a land to me is threat to russia is acceptable. but leaving russia without access to the black, she is actually o king, russia is actually instigating russia responded and this is exactly what happened. my love wind on this particular argument is the fact that in 2015, russia went to the board of her let back here in syria. all quite not all go by. but the book was there was deployed there also the,

the abby's there. it was. so important for russia, because that's the only manner in which you can have access to the mediterranean, into the area of the, of the gulf and the for everybody important strategic region of the world. so russia was essentially ever seeing a strategic interest meant in case of syria. it was doing that in accordance in agreement with the legitimate and you and recognize syrian government and when it comes to ukraine. and one could argue that the ukraine is a sovereign nation, that is, up to itself, didn't define who wants to be associated with. and yet you still claim that the russia on ukraine had been pushed to a health. what do you mean by that? it displays both ways. i mean, i knew seen the stance that i've been valued by the manner in which india has been . india has did good and neither side is only analyzed. this will be argued for

both side effect as a valuable because you are a distance and a tennis. absolutely, i would say mid or justification of nato is to portia, is drugs. and as, as a democratic, right. and the nation has got the capability and the right good join. any other nation, any other organization, any other entity who are once it's a need for the, for its own people? this is exactly what they need to argument does. yeah. but if you really see it on real quality, off to the end of the cold war, the nickel bush east, towards the end of the was up back soon. the former was our back zone. was all about making it almost impossible for russia ever to root by leaving at no options at door. why the russians we get there where to 989 because they're bad in the

ninety's at that time, not this one. and when the russian bhalla became more comprehensive, became stronger, russia started responding and that's how you perform in 2004 be present today. and finally, i just wondered if not, we're going to mention of what it is wanted, but hybrid wall. this was some of the big i but it can bids, which was far out and grammy and the areas like that. so both sides, i've got their justification to do what they're doing and are all going to my argument only as the analyst is. that the, if both sides had made their statements through radius acts on, that's what the, what they had done there must realize that this war is unwinnable. neither head can win. this war, american military strategy have been riding about the i this idea of the proxy war as a cheaper and faster substitute for

a conventional war. and i think for some time the russians have played a long, even though the american capabilities to shape and to influence and sometimes distort global public opinion, a much more superior than rushes. but i wonder if in deciding to deploy these traditional conventional force, the crumbling was aiming not only for defending its strategic interest, but also for sort of challenging this american paradigm. the perception is reality that you reno lose war on television screens rather than on the actual battlefield . actually is even more complex than what you explain at the moment. it's not just a question of a direct confrontation, what the russian side decided finally was. that it red line had been crossed, right. we, most of us were analyzing of that particular dime in february last year,

24th of february to be precise. read all the opinion because we were reading too much into how the word act shipped both the pandemic and political and i've been thinking that no nation to be probably one to were to conventional water this particular state. but if we had gone bad dba and understood the russian mind, we were to realised that the red lines had already been crossed and president guten, was willing to commit his conventional forces to defend russian interest in eastern europe. that is very clear other than americans are concerned there that it would be a proxy war, that they will not come. it didn't go over not coming to europe in groups to just through ukraine, through the comprehensive flash bought of ukraine. only that this would be for, i'm not sure that this is if venomous packaged, although i'm also not for american deployment or any other natal deployment. because that will make the situation so dangerous that we are almost getting into

the eyes of a code word wall. but both sites now at this stage have to realised that this ward is unwinnable. it is causing misery is not their own people. it's causing miscellaneous to behold where the energy crisis, the vendor make economic recovery, which is so necessary for the old one. it full crisis. everything is happening. yeah. i was expecting that by the month of february, some payments start something while the different start moving, but now i'm getting less hopeful than what i was. now, india is home to one of the world's greatest non violent resistance tradition, but you also have one of their will strongest armies. and i wonder how did it shape your own domestic discourse around the russian ukranian war. and more generally about the application of this conventional military capability. do you think it perhaps, legitimize the use of force limited use of force in the eyes of the indian problem?

because you also have your fair share of, you know, conflicts with your neighbors. well, very good. question, indeed, we ought to be all one of the nation's suffering from getting them proxy that them or to the better part of 30 years is a proxy water would just be important. gosh, me to and that's the place where i commanded my groups to some years ago. having said that, the want to have conscious of india by india, about the effects of proxy water and what it can lead broke. she was going against walk off intervention or wards at different moments. we've had our own share of this in the last couple of years we've overcome it. so we know how dangerous proxy was in 2014, when russia decided to launch a proxy war in crimea. in this general area, i'm sure you know that the russia believes that it's the ukrainian side in the west,

the west, the initiated that crisis with the overthrow of the legitimate government. i'm fully aware of what happened that perceptions about it. but yes, there are certain brots we cannot deny. it was the question of pushing and that push into a shop at the end. and then we'll go to the one from that auction site. i'm not justified as a public public lever on either side. but i would say the yes, there are some decided not to go in convent truly, to tell them who was not at the time when convention or water was being looked at as a means of dissolving garden lakes. not that it is being looked at today either, but will be in was perhaps a dining, but i would say russia had bounced back somebody should i visited the kandrique already cooperating my scope in, in 2015 and i got lots of pretty debriefings. i think dang some place to glad i started understanding that actually mine was better than i rely, is that 2014 russia had been pushed in most of my writing,

you will find that i orvis tend to give a perception that russia was a week. it could respond, it wanted to come back and be a competitive organization with as far as data was concerned, but doubled, not possible. that can only be possible if russia has gives a push back. that was about had to start from somewhere. it started from ukraine, that 2014. what was it? i'm by which i am russia that i should have gotten me russian comprehensive back to wow. it's leadership and gave me these are all going to be into place. but having said that, the last right on that i was surprised that the, in the quantity of the russian military make initially edward into conventional operations from 24th of february our last year dot game as a surprise for most of us or no rush. while our general, let's pause here for

a moment, but we will be back to the discussion in just a few moments stationed ah ah, ah.

what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy conference taishan. let it be an arms race. is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical. i'm time to sit down and talk ah welcome back to worlds apart. where say at our house name, retired lieutenant general of the engine army and a former commander of the indian army in kashmir. general before the break, we were discussing your perception of russia,

so they're being pushed and pushed and pushed. and then finally, finding enough well, strengthen perhaps, perhaps resentment you to push back. and you've also written in one of your articles that someone should have anticipated someone within nato or someone within their western camps should have anticipated that at some stage, russia will rise and demand some dignity. isn't that true about any nation, no matter how big or small it is, that it's minimum interest need to be respected? isn't that also true? in the case of ukraine when it comes to russia's offensive? it will remember when one of the 1st article that i wrote, i started the dimension of the video to the science, the ending id. and i said that was the biggest mistake that the allies made, that i'm not returning the dignity of the defeated german state. and you saw what

happened or india as nato the with well, we are not in varying thinking what in the russian to nazi germany. but i understand that this is the failure to address the proper termination of war is leading to a conflict that's i gag in the point. absolutely gone victim innovation is a such an important aspect of, of the whole conflict process. you see, it's not a question of leaving it that a conflict resolution. no wonder what it does dome of the nation that i think and then taking it beyond in resolution to make sure that it is a comprehensive solution which comes about. it addresses not just the military, not just to put it to go, but the psychological aspects, as far as the, the ego of the people of the civilized vision, this concert. none of this happen. i in just case i strongly don't see that the 1989 on the woods, the victoria sir western word didn't push russia back

eastwards. i mean the making sure that they have comprehensive national bar did not emerge that levels. david risen means of doing it. one of them was of course, economic. the other was military military militarily, to ensure that russia reduces his own. it's a follow up with the most important aspect was psychological. the triangle in impose on that i. since i that dick will not come back ever again, but that, i think somehow was it mistake both the biden and as in nancy, kent ministration are portraying these were in very ontological terms. for zalinski, it's a set, and that is essential flight of freedom versus terrorism. with tyranny, the biden administration describes this as a struggle between the forces of democracy and the forces of authoritarian is more to tell a terrorism. i wonder if there could be any psychological resolution for the ukrainians

or the americans. for that matter. when the conflict is framed in those terms, the ultimate forces of good against the ultimate forces of evil and by the letter they mean russia. what kind of a psychological resolution could be there with the demo? this is one of those very was where i find it very difficult to find the william and i am binding to that both sides. i don't blame as far as the what is self concept or but what is the point towards what as far as, as the instigation is concerned, i be put a greater blame on the, on the natal side because i do feel that the, we in a, in a war and the water was as much of water i as the bus, where was the 2nd world war we don't at the end of a war, needs to be magnanimous in terms of his recreate in warranty, in

a jeep at the end of the day, he has to ensure that war does not return to the same zone again. i don't think to west i don't think of natal real true this did not analyze it through the see that psychologically they were creating if it said the people whose basic ideologies would essential existence with honor and pride, water being grown down was being brought under the mother, and that this lot will rise again, maybe as germany did, but some days will rise again the russian side as we don't much faster than that and actually come back in matter of just when you print. when 2014, you saw what that the proxy was started. so at the end of the day, i still feel that i mean to want to kinetic the end of the day. i still be dead now

. it does not afford to be spoken by the united states all by ukraine is actually who they're fighting a war, essentially, to prevent the re done. that is surgeons of russian power once again in this region, and to ensure that that is, was one to the flood its limits as far as possible. the only solution to it is to ensure f use fire come to the table. it will be a long drawn out engagement process. this is not going to be about debt. it be just not going to be about national board or anything is going to be about existence. now general, most of our viewers and not strategies, and i wonder if you can give us a sense of how decision makers arrive at the balance of pushing against an unpleasant neighbor. but also not going too far and not allowing others to exploit your legitimate girlfriend grievances for the own ames. i guess i'm asking you

about how to delineate your own war from the wars that others want you to fight for this. this is a sense of responsibility with decision makers have a bad or is and they have to ensure that ended and to the, as i'm barely when dad in victoria small in data and to them did not all what step and they do not go beyond the because disk and lead or something just get escalate or something but just you know, far beyond what example 4 months ago, 3 months ago we were finding that the steps moving to a nuclear engagement, becoming more and more tedious. we were finding present boot and talking about it very often, although the natal side would not the knit 5 was much more responsible about that, but the russian side, i put the girl leave with the counter offensive. having started from the ukranian side, they were on the back foot and out of a diamond, these can,

the statements were being made. no, that has stopped. that is mostly please stop and obviously some kind of a sense of responsibility. have it done what, what i want to highlight deal viewers is if we are living in a world of information, what in denison formation? walker perception management communication strategy. this is going to make war fighting that much more complex because it have to do it. no one knows what the group is. what is coming out in the western media today? dumb the, the situation in ukraine. dwight necessarily have to believe it does. what does we spoken about in russia? do i have to necessarily believe it? i have to get the right information to understand why and that is not coming by we, i, this is going to be a challenge in the future in other wars thinking about all our future. 6 work there is one potential conflict that a lot of international media talking about i'm,

i mean the, the suppose an intention of beijing to take control over a tie one and taking stalk of the, at times quite provocative american diplomacy. it's a, it's hard for me to figure out whether the americans actually went to prevent that from happening or whether they are trying to act china on to push it into action and to create a pretext for brother confrontation with beijing. what's your sense of it? is you, ma'am about me can give specific good reference to the visit of the u. s. speaker and nancy. but if you went, you went into di one a matter of what 4 months on maybe 5 months ago, and the pool cushion, which, which, which came about at that time is that the best example understand this whole situation . i think the u. s. at once, did i for the u. s. was all players cards and that it was a very provocative. it was taking a fed,

a deep risk and in the situation of what was happening on euclid and suddenly challenge china right on his doorstep. it was a best perfect kind of a situation with developing greater when i, when i discussed this, when i, when i analyzed as deep up, i realised that the united states was really not taking a risk. it was perhaps convinced that there would be really noticed once it was testing die, not it was psychologically but i, we think it was pushing it back and making china feel that it was not capable of responding conventionally to the united states challenge. it was no doubt it risk which had been taken at that particular time and all of us perceived it but, but the united states came out. we're not the winner. there's no good or lose it in the scope of supervision, but definitely came out of the dominant ball. and that sent home a message very strongly to bridging at a particular time. this is just on the time of the brenda congress of the,

of the chinese communist party. that was also one of the but the important factors which was playing in china that it had to remain in this place. while what was happening, a new plan was resolved on the other fact. i know that the india has a quite a long list of grievances with china and it is also being quarantined by the americans to build this sort of counterbalance against china, both within the framework of what and possibly alkalis do you think the indian leadership is balanced enough to know where it's this or the pick up its own battles to, you know, defendants interest but you know, without a, you know, providing some unnecessary services war services for the americans. thank you for that question. as an excellent question. and i would say a bit, i think you'll mind battle $9090.00 and ended $91.00 india was down to his last $1000000000.00 of foreign exchange reserves. we're new m m and as

a nation we read down down in the dumps today. they're looking at becoming a $10000000000.00 economy by 2035. i've been single minded living and leadership is looking at a quantitative upgrade ation of the quality of life of the indian citizens in the future. we are not interested or we want trish coming on our borders. you've got church in don't really come in would be delivered to us. but india is the last mission, but you want to we, we want to make sure that we align ourselves, or to should you say we can engage with many other who can come to the one assistance if it comes to this q situations on our, on our borders and i think this relationship with the united states is based on that. it's a strategic relationship. we are, well, we're not really, we're not provoking china in any way. we are making strong statements primarily to exercise our right to get china. that it is acting aggressively on the borders and

it could be risky to large emissions to nuclear power to nuclear weaponized nations cannot afford to do this kind of thing. that's the message which is going out regina. but at the same time, we are lining with united states that he jiggly, because we feel that we have to and short a balance in our, in our approach. our relationship with russia is very strong. most of our materially got pointers or comes from russia. it's very important for us to maintain that relationship and you can see that india is also a member of the shame, like what we should organization as c e o, we are a member of that along with the russia. china, in fact of meeting future meeting is about to take place in one of us bits of the state of gore, in the very near future where all these countries are going to be loaded up. we have to leave it here. our time is out. i'm very, very grateful for your conversation and participation in our program today. it was a most enjoyable conversation that i had,

and i thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to sir, again on will depart, ah, with with ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is lost to future

generations. but our fiscal museum spaces themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world, from a touch and st. petersburg to help refuse the director here and i bet he has met with hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered on peter labelle. it has been reported. the c i age william burns offered russia 20 percent of ukrainian territory in exchange for ending the conflicts, the kremlin, the white house and the cia all have rejected. this reporting, all of which makes us think the opposite. some of the biden administration want to wrap up.