separate colonies, sara niga, triple atanya, and phys on under the ottoman empire. but today, we know it simply as libya, after world war 2, a sort of guardianship was granted to the u. k. and france. soon after the u. n. g, a granted independence and unification of all those 3 regions. but its independence, however, came at a cost. the agreement that western friendly king interests come into power in 1951 . now interest allowed the u. s. and u. k. to build military bases in the country and exchange for economic aid for the americans part they gave about $100000000.00 us dollars to interest, which was a lot of money at that time. especially for a country that was rather impoverished. but it wouldn't be long before libya discovered it wasn't poor at all. as it turns out, libya was sitting on one of the richest oil fields in the world. and certainly the

biggest reserves in africa at the time. the year was 1959. the nasir wells hit liquid black gold back then it was called a mall and delta. but in just 2 short years, libya was an oil ex border. now this after oil exploration had turned out dry since 1915. so let's fast forward 10 years to 969. now there's a saying about jobs and management, right? that when you finally get to go on vacation, that's when anything that can go wrong will go wrong. and that's exactly what happened to king interest of the kingdom of libya. while interest was on holiday and turkey. but some argue he was actually seeking medical treatment. they're a young army officer, lead a blog with who to talk to, posing king interests in 1969. that officer was more mark adoptee. now one general

gadhafi came to power despite libya, the vast oil well, little had been done for the general public in the way of education, health care, and even basic living standards back then, only about a quarter 1000000 libyans were actually literate, a be estimated 4000000 people of the country, the majority of libyans lived well below the un poverty line, and many were dying of terrible diseases. in one generation, under gadhafi, the rule, the nationalizing of the countries oil industry drove the literacy rate up to 88.4 percent. brought libyan life expectancy up to 74 and a half years. and a number of other positive indicators as measured by the u. when development program in 2010, just a year before his ouster and death, they called libya a quote, high development country in the middle east and north africa. so in the early,

2000 libya had the highest g d, p per capita. and life expectancy on the entire african continent and percentage against population actually had similar numbers to poverty in the netherlands. i mean, sounds pretty good, right? especially compared to present day. but let's be clear about something. gadhafi was an all come by yon rainbows and lollipops. he led his country as an authoritarian leader does with an iron fist that came crashing down on anyone who got out of line political opposition, free speech, all of that iron fist. now gadhafi had a lot of grand ideas though. chief among them building tight bonds with the air of world and unifying africa even before there was an african union. he wanted a joint gold based being our currency. he put libya in opec,

but he also liked the fun rubble groups and what some would say tara campaigns take . for example, the 1988 bombing of the pan am jet over lockerbie, scotland, killing all 259 people on board and 11 more on the ground that you went subsequently imposed sanctions on libya in 1992. they later removed them in 2003 after libby, a formally accepted responsibility for that tragedy. libya had to pay $2300000000.00 us dollars in compensation for their role in international terrorism. but then staving off the arab spring in neighboring tunisia and egypt in 2011, the discontent found its way into libya. aided by us, lead nato. a bombing campaign ensued in aid of gadhafi is opposition. the 7 month campaign rip the core of the country apart,

displacing some $2000000.00 of its residents, causing death in the thousands. now, multiple factions of rubble groups all claiming authority over territory. by all international accounts, libya is a failed state. for his perspective, we'll talk to a man who actually knew low mark adolphe, he spent decades as a career diplomat, retiring in 1993. as the assistant secretary of state for african affairs, ambassador herman cohen is now the president of cohen, woods, international and advisement group on african and mid east business development. mr . bassett, or thank you so much for joining us. first, can you describe for us physically what libya actually looked like in the 40 years under marg adolphe? i mean, what was life like for the average libby in there? well, i think life was pretty good. be there. there was plenty of money coming in from

oil and they, they can consume of consumer goods. so i think it was significantly above the poverty level for the average libyan, and there wasn't much involved in politics, could actually just controlled everything. so they weren't asked to, to vote on anything or what have referendum or anything like that. they just said keep out of politics could actually said, i'll run everything and, and he made sure that they had a high standard of living. now historically, how would you describe the u. s. position on libya? well, you know, for many years we had a u. s. air base in libya, and this was what we use. well, we were planning to use in case we needed to intervene in the middle east or in africa. and so that was our highest priority. we and as long as the libyan

government didn't bother us, we didn't bother them. we, we just operated our air base and did exercises there. how would you characterize the, the us libya relationship for all those years prior to gadhafi is death? well, i will include friendly actually it was, it was not friendly. after cadaver, he organized a terrorist attack in berlin. it was a u. s. army social club there. and he organized the terrorist attack against the you, the americans, and it was americans killed. so at that point the united states became very hostile and took it alfie and we, we bombed his, his whole we sent, we said the us,

us air force planes from england to bomb his home. and there was a death, there was a death cannot fees adopted child, and this caused him to be very, very angry at the united states. and from that point, relations were quite bad. now, under brock obama, we saw the fall of gadhafi and ultimately his brutal demise. this came after us lead nato intervention in the country. we know president obama made references to democracy, dictatorship, violence, and so on. however, at one point on the issue of libya, president obama said, quote, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. so, what exactly is or was the interest in libya? will in libya we want to make sure that the net,

the flow of oil continues. libby as a major produce of crude oil. and if that is interrupted and then the international markets are trouble, the prices go up. and actually i would say that that is currently our main interest in libya. and also we want to make sure that sub saharan africa remain stable and libya has a lot of impact and what goes on instruction. for example, in south east libya, there are major arms deposits there and in warehouses. and this is the area code. and currently, terrorists in, in the hill countries, the south countries. molly niger and looking at fossil terrorist attacking

those countries are getting their arms from southern libya in the place go on. so libya has an impact and what goes on in the rest of africa. and we want libya to be a stable country that's looking to maintain peace and stability and all of that for while margaret duffy actually played an outsider role in shaping modern day opec methodology. how would you describe his efforts? i mean, was he, you know, a guy that was basically trying to unionize these arab oil countries or do you think it was something else? was there something to feria? how would you describe it? well, his 1st objective, he was remanded for unity and incense that he wanted to have. all countries in middle east 3 come part of libya, wanted a large federation of which libya he could, that he would be the head of it. so he, he approach syria producer,

he wanted to have the syria arab union joined libya and he was rejected. it was rejected. everyone said, no, we don't want to join libya, so that got him very angry at the arabs. i remember him telling me after that, he says, i'm not, i'm not an arab anymore. i'm an african. he says i'm going to, i'm going to unity with the african. and he proposed to have an african union before there was an african union. it always after african union, which he would, it would of course be the head. and he because he had a lot of money. it was inviting a lot of african leaders to come visit him. and he had the molly president, molly, the niger ever president of angola, they all came to visit it real, very happy to do that. and he kept proposing. let's have him. african ewing is. busy well, we've become one country, but none,

none of them wanted to do that and that was very frustrating for him. and so he, for example, lee, he sent his own troops to northern chad. there is a strip of land in the north of chad. it has an ear vase and he sent troops unoccupied. it was called that losing strip. and he said, well, now unity with chad and he was using that base to bomb other countries. like he, he sent bombers to bomb cartoon in sudan, c, because they refused to join his soon. so he was very aggressive. it was very aggressive and he wanted to be the leader. what would be the leader of war, africa, if he couldn't be the leader of all the countries, he could be the leader of all of africa. but of course the africans didn't want to join. and he was very frustrated. can you expand for us on this? libya and his dreams of this big oil monopoly. yes,

they will. they had to join opec in order to make sure they get the prices that they wanted and that they could influence. oh pick no. i don't remember how many barrels a day they were exploding. i think it was about a 1000000 and he could, it could influence the price of oil and he wanted to make sure that the price was maximum because he wanted all that, all that currency. alright, ambassador cohen has agreed to stick around, unpack more about the situation in libya, and will also get his analysis on modern day diplomacy, or i would say lack thereof. we will discuss it when we return with ambassador cohen sit tight. the emma will be right back i i

ah ah for is your media a reflection of reality? ah, in a world transformed what will make you feel safe?

isolation for community. are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is great in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk

the me and welcome back to the memo. we are again joined by ambassador herman cohen. thank you for staying with us. mister ambassador, as we continue this discussion about libya, the libya has this sort of interesting varied role in the world. it's both part of the era world. it's also part of the african world, which gadhafi thought to really develop with this whole african union idea. even a gold based currency for the continent, similar to the e. you with the euro, that dream die with gadhafi or could we see something like that come to fruition? maybe in the future? well, it, it died, we could, as we, but it already exists. for example, all of the french speaking countries that used to be french colonies. they have a common currency. it's called the c f a. and it's,

it's backed by the french treasury. so it's a hard currency and they can, you can use a, c, f, a to import anything from any place in the world. because if you get, if you pay off and, and see a, everybody's happy with that it's backed by, it's backed by gold. so it's coming close to coming currency, but having all of africa and common currency that that is never been really discussed except by bike adoption himself. but it's, it's never been realized. could, ah, see, i might mention right now that could out, he believes in revolution. he says, i, i support rebel. so the world and he had a couple of adventures outside of africa, for example, in northern ireland, when the northern island war was going on against the u. k. i forgot when that ended about 10 years ago. he supported rebels in northern island. he supported the

catholic rebels in northern island. he said he sent them money, he sent them arms. and secondly, in the philippines, i believe it was the philippines. there was ever a rebellion going against the philippine government in the island of minda now, and he sent arms to the rebels. now, who happened to be the moslems? he said, these moslems are being oppressed and, and now by the philippine government, i'm going to help them. he did, he said money. so he was, he had his concept of revolution is good. revolution is going to support revolutionaries all over the world. and he had these 2 adventures, one in northern ireland, and one in the philippines. now, there are also a lot of external forces at play in libya. the last estimates by the un put around 30000 foreign fighters in the country as of 2021. now beyond the us,

there is russia or is turkey, the addictions, are there the you way eat? why so much for an interest in this country, what's on the table in libya that all these other nations, including the u. s. wish to exert. i don't know, maybe influence or even control over its future will, you know, libya ever should get out. he's not had a unified government is really to government. she had one in, in the eastern provinces, syrian acre and united, another government and tripoli in the western provinces. triple atanya and it was from there was nothing in the southern province. ok exam is just sort of local, local control. so everyone is worried. the egyptians live the border with libya. they are worried that the instability in libya will spill over into, into egypt. and the turks feel that they have an

interest in protecting turkish interest, which is they're buying oil from libya. so and since there was no real government in would be the one government and in an eastern will be in another government in tripoli. everyone said that it's basically a. busy fail state, so we want to make sure that the libyan entity remain is stable. and the only want to do that the only way to send troops. so you had the turkish government, send troops and the egyptian, and even the russians, because the russian said mercenaries there who were looking to make money. see the mercenaries come and said, oh, we will protect you. but the real interest is to make money. so it libya is still today basically a fail state. it's really not a modern government today. many have called libya

a failed state. i mean you yourself just assigned it that label. can you expand a little bit more on that for us? i think it was basically could, he did not want a strong state parliament. he didn't want local governors necessarily. he was, he was afraid that he would be overthrown if it, if there was people with, with guns and people with authority in the rest of the libya. so he maintained it that way. let me give you an example of one thing that happened. i had a meeting with a private meeting with him and he said, i have something that will interest you, mr. coleman. what is that? he said i've invited the jewish people to come back to you, you know, beef before he came to power. it was a king, the king edris who was living in eastern libya and when the

palestine thing blew up, when the state of israel was established, lot of african countries expelled all the jews. and so did libya, the king could ask the king edris expelled libyans, jewish people who are mainly italians known to libya, started out as in italian country. so where did these people go after that? went to italy and. busy handsome went to israel, so could api. and that's good because they took, it took a lot of money out. so could afi and a private conversation would be so this will interest you is colon. i'm inviting. all will be in jewish people to come back. should all that wonderful. terrific. and he actually did that. he said, he said emissaries to ro, israel, and should please from back. so a maybe a year later, i was visiting,

i didn't talk to gadhafi. i talked to one of these high ranking people. in fact, is he had an institute called the institute for the green book, you know, like now to tell them how to read book. he had a green book with the sayings of there. so i went to the head of the students of the green book that i had made friends with. i said, well, what happened to the jews combat? so yeah, a lot of a king bed. i said what happened and said, they sold all their property. let's forget so that was their only interest is listed, make sure they get their money and they want to live for you see? so and it turned out that could nazis wife could ask his wife was a, an italian jewess. and yeah. and what she was doing is taking care daffy's money and sending it to good causes israel. and i'm sure he didn't know anything

about it. but anyway, he had a, he had an interesting encounter. but it's, it's too bad because the jewish people in libya, the italian jewish people, you know, they were doing industry and that sort of thing. so libya lost all of that enterprise enterprise during the spirit that they had brought. now on your many decades in public service, you are what's called a career diplomat. can you share with us what you've learned about dealing with foreign leaders? well, is to be a successful diplomat. you 1st that understand who the other guys are. you know, if you, if you get sent to a country, you have to understand who are they were, what motivates them and where are the different power structures in the country?

and as i look back on my career, i think i spent 3 quarters of my time asking questions. always asking questions of people, you know, local officials, local dignitaries. because i want to know who these people are, what motivates them, so that i could recommend policies to washington policy should be. and so it's, it's mainly questioning, understanding also you, we have archives about these countries, you know, every embassy, every american embassy sends back reports. this is what's going on this week in the country. so before you even go out, you look at all these reports from previous and from previous diplomats in that country. that gives you knowledge about how things are going. and also you want to make contacts, not just with the government, you want to talk to people in, in the press. the want to talk to people in cultural organizations, to example,

the national association of women. you want to talk to them, you want to talk to youth national association of the libyan youth or oh my jury and you and that sort of thing. you want to talk to a position political parties. he just don't want to talk to the to the, to the peep party in town. so it's a question of getting around and asking questions. so that's the best way to be a diplomat ambassador herman cohen. thank you so much for sharing all of that insight with us today. thanks. re interviewing me. appreciate. ah, while there is so much chaos in libya right now, so many loud external voices. let's not forget to listen to the softer speakers. those of the average libyan civilian, who by a large, only wish for peace,

stability and sovereignty, that's going to do it for this week's episode. modus operandi the show that digs deep into foreign policy, i am your host manila chan. thank you for tuning in. we'll see you again next week to figure out the ammo. ah ah, a digital collaboration cloth to get what is the best time to do in which was the idea about them? this is, i'm a little bit of a vehicle with our to school for carbonate port backwards, but some claim. yeah. it's not that much scheme report from the id card order. the stuff that is written there lawfully called really

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a 1000 as well. yeah. wow, give easy. wow. find it. oh, yeah. or you know, it's a fun slice. yes. south. yeah. thrashing south with your doc. awesome. for years now watch. done for me that a bull up my pizza is emma? yeah. full of good. from sure. let me just kim's room. she thought it was a yes my thought watching in the again, do you watch in pre op? not be a lot about this morning. esther search financially ah

ah, breaking news, an earthquake head start key with dozens reported dead and 100 injured as buildings collapse, multiple provinces, and deadly after shock strike northwestern regions of neighboring syria claiming lies of at least 42 people in during hundreds more according to state media report, china says the attack on a weather balloon has undermined the process of stabilizing by, you know, you have relations that says u. s. military try to.