the posing team interests in 1969. that officer was more mark adoptee. now when general gadhafi came to power, despite libya, the vast oil well, little had been done for the general public in the way of education, health care, and even basic living standards back then, only about a quarter 1000000 libyans were actually literate of the estimated 4000000 people of the country, the majority of libyans lived well below the un poverty line, and many were dying of curable diseases. in one generation, under gadhafi rule, the nationalizing of the countries oil industry drove the literacy rate up to 88.4 percent. brought libyan life expectancy up to 74 and a half years. and a number of other positive indicators as measured by the u when development program in 2010, just a year before his ouster and death, they called libya a quote,

high development country in the middle east and north africa. so in the early 2, thousands, libya had the highest g d, p per capita. and life expectancy on the entire african continent and percentage against population actually had similar numbers to poverty in the netherlands. i mean, sounds pretty good, right? especially compared to present day. but let's be clear about something gadhafi was an all come by yon rainbows and lollipops. he led his country as an authoritarian leader does with an iron fist that came crashing down on anyone who got out of life, political opposition, free speech, all of that iron fist. now good off. he had a lot of grand ideas though. chief among them building tight bond with the arab world and unifying africa even before there was an african union. he wanted

a joint gold based the nar currency. he put libya in opec, but he also liked to fun rubble groups and what some would say tara campaigns take, for example, the 1988 bombing of the pan am jet over lockerbie, scotland, killing all 259 people on board and 11 more on the ground that you went subsequently imposed sanctions on libya in 1992. they later removed them in 2003 after libby a formally accepted responsibility for that tragedy. libya had to pay $2300000000.00 us dollars in compensation for their role in international terrorism, but then feeding off the arab spring in neighboring tunisia and egypt in 2011. the discontent found its way into libya. aided by us, lead nato, a bombing campaign ensued in aid of gadhafi is opposition. the 7

month campaign ripped the core of the country apart. displacing some 2000000 of its residents, causing death in the thousands. now, multiple factions of rebel groups all claiming authority over territory. by all international accounts, libya is a failed state for his perspectives, will talk to a man who actually knew low mark adolphe, he spent decades as a career diplomat, retiring in 1993. as the assistant secretary of state for african affairs, ambassador herman cohen is now the president of cohen, woods international and advisement group on african and mid east business development. mister ambassador, thank you so much for joining us. first, can you describe for us physically what libya actually looked like in the 40 years under marg adoptee? i mean what was life like for the average libby in there?

well i think life was pretty good. be there was plenty of money coming in from oil . and they, they could consume consumer goods. so i think it was significantly above the poverty level for the average, libyan, and there wasn't much involved in politics. canarvy just controlled everything. so they weren't asked to, to vote on anything or what have referendum or anything like that. they just said, keep out of politics, crappy said, i'll run everything and, and he made sure that they had i standard of living. now, historically, how would you describe the u. s. position on libya? well, you know, for many years we had a u. s. air base in libya and this was what we use. well, we were planning to use in case we needed to intervene in the middle east or in

africa. and so that was our highest priority. we and as long as the libyan government didn't bother us, we didn't bother them we, we just operated our air base and then did exercises there. how would you characterize the, the u. s. libya relationship for all those years prior to gadhafi is death? well, i wouldn't close friendly actually, it was it was not friendly. after cadaver, he organized a terrorist attack in berlin. it was a u. s. army social club there and he organized a. busy test attack against the you, the americans and it was 2 americans killed. so at that point, the united states became very hostile and took it to harvey and we, we bombed his,

his whole, we sent, we said the us, us air force planes from england to bomb his home. and there was a death, there was a death of could out fees adopted child, and this caused him to be very, very angry at the united states. and from that point, relations were quite bad. now, under brock obama, we saw the fall of gadhafi and ultimately his brutal demise. this came after us lead nato intervention in the country. we know president obama made references to democracy, dictatorship, violence, and so on. however, at one point on the issue of libya, president obama said, quote, we must always measure our interest against the need for action. so, what exactly is or was the interest in libya?

when we're libya, we want to make sure that the net, the flow of oil continues. libby as a major produce of crude oil. and if that is interrupted and then the international markets are trouble, the prices go up. and actually i would say that that is currently our main interest in libya. and also we want to make sure that sub saharan africa remain stable and libya has a lot of impact on what goes on instruction. for example, in south east libya, there are major arms deposits there, inch in warehouses. and this is the area code. and currently, terrorists in, in the hill countries, the south countries,

molly niger and looking at 5 so terrorist attacking those countries are getting their arms from southern libya in the place, go on. so libya has an impact and what goes on in the rest of africa. and we want libya to be a stable country that's looking to maintain peace and stability and all of that for well, margaret duffy actually played an outsider role in shaping modern day opec methodology . how would you describe his efforts? i mean, was he, you know, a guy that was basically trying to unionize these arab oil countries or do you think it was something else? was there something to various, how would you describe it? well, his 1st objective, he was a man for unity and incense that he wanted to have all countries in the middle east to become part of libya. you might get a large federation of which libya he could, that he would be the head of it. so he,

he approach syria producer, he wanted to have the syria arab union joined libya and he was rejected. it was rejected. everyone said, no, we don't want to join libya, so that got him very angry at the arabs. i remember him telling me after that, he says, i'm not, i'm not an arab anymore. i'm an african. he says i'm going to, i'm going to unity with the africans. and he proposed to have an african union before there was an african union. it was after african union, which he would, it would of course be the head. and he because he had a lot of money. it was inviting a lot of african leaders to come visit him. and he had the molly president, molly, the niger ever president of angola, they all came to visit him, very happy to do that. and he kept proposing. let's have an african ewing is. we

all will become one country. but none, none of them wanted to do that and that was very frustrating for him. and so he, for example, lee, he sent his own troops to northern chad. there is a strip of land in the north of chad that has an ear bass. and he sent troops unoccupied, and it was called at losing strip. and he said, well, now unity with chad and he was using that base to bomb other countries. like he, he sent bombers to bomb cartoon. and sudan said because they refused to join his unit. so he was very aggressive, it was very aggressive and he wanted to be the leader. what would be the leader of war, africa, if he couldn't be the leader of all the countries, he could be the leader of africa. but of course, the africans didn't want to join it, and he was very frustrated. and you expand for us on this,

libya and his dreams of this big oil monopoly? yes. well, they had to join opec in order to make sure they get the prices that they wanted and that they could influence. oh pick. no. i don't remember every bows a day. they were exploiting. i think it was about a 1000000 and he could. he could influence the price of oil, and he wants to make sure that the price was maximum, because he wanted all that, well, that currency. alright, ambassador cohen has agreed to stick around to unpack more about the situation in libya, and will also get his analysis on modern day diplomacy, or i would say lack thereof. we will discuss it when we return with ambassador cohen, 5th type. emma will be right back i i

i may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities another company, the united states of america is different. wearable people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with you little bit about it all ready? basie. so the city, if you draw the look at the book they incentives of each cigarette. a few color revolutions is one among several of means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them on to the help of u. s. western economic interest. people been sad, it,

i didn't that needed to everybody did them. okay. yeah. during training class, so no, we just say low their soft power. i'm ready for the final goal of these seem revolutions to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. oh, is your media a reflection of reality? in the world transformed? what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the

shallows. for ah, you stuck with the the quota sheet, just an asshole sheet to work on your voice which which manually would you go below what he says? not a strip of denial for moria. a fool ecologist? yes. yeah. oh god, you stand up yet then. well, more than enough, then you re yes. well, bunny pulls the pollute vision with no one actually spoke up. did you wanna do a visual with moving that

quote, to missed issue with genex, who took those 2? who should move you do. do is just put us bo boyd at the dome. here it's no worries . no, we do. but as little as you can with the new system, what did it still to what the clear use a ticker economic those number of national with that slow make them get the loan dissertation. the issue basically by the same with blue

and welcome back to the m o. we are again joined by ambassador her men cohen. thank you for staying with us, mister ambassador, as we continue this discussion about libya. so livia has this sort of interesting varied role in the world of both part of the era world. it's also part of the african world, which gadhafi sought to really develop with this whole african union idea, even a gold based currency for the continent, similar to the e. you with the euro. to that dream die with gadhafi, or could we see something like that come to fruition maybe in the future? well, it, it died, we could, as we, but it already exists. for example, all of the french speaking countries that used to be french colonies. they have a common currency, it's called the c f a and it's, it's backed by the french treasury. so it's a hard currency. and they can,

you can use a, c, f, a to import anything from any place in the world. because if you get, if you pay often and see a, everybody's happy with that it's bad by, it's backed by gold. so it's that coming closer coming currency. but having all of africa and common currency that is never been really disguised except by bike adoption himself. but it's, it's never been realized. could, ah, see, i might mention right now the cadaver, he believes in revolution. he says, i, i support rebels all the world. and he had a couple of adventures outside of africa, for example, in northern ireland, when the northern ireland war was going on against the u. k. i forgot when that ended in 10 years ago. he supported rebels in northern island. he supported the catholic rebels in northern island. he said he sent them money,

he sent them arms. and secondly, in the philippines, i believe it was the philippines. there was a rebellion going against the philippine government. and the island of min did now . and he sent arms to the rebels. now, who happened to be the moslems? he said, these moslems are being oppressed in the now, by the philippine government. i'm going to help them. he did, he said money. so he was, he had this concept of revolution is good. revolution is good and honest support revolutionaries all over the world. and he had these 2 adventures, one in northern island, and one in the philippines. now there are also a lot of external forces at play in libya. the last estimates by the you when put around 30000 foreign fighters in the country as of 2021. now beyond the us, there is russia through turkey. the egyptians are there the you way eat?

why so much for an interest in this country. what on the table in libya, that all these other nations, including the u. s. wish to exert. i don't know, maybe influence or even control over its future. will you know, libya ever should get out? he's not had a unified government, it's how really to government. she had one in, in the eastern provinces, syrian acre and united, another government and tripoli in the western provinces. triple atanya. and it was, it was nothing. and in the southern province, ok exam is just sort of local local control. so everyone is worried. the egyptians live the border with libya. they are worried that the instability in libya will still over into, into egypt. and the turks feel that they have an interest in protecting turkish interest,

which is they're buying oil from libya. so and since there was no real government at the end of the one government and in the eastern will be in another government in tripoli. everyone said it, it's basically a. busy fail state. so we want to make sure that the libyan entity remain stable. and the only want to do that, the only way to send troops to the turkish government, send troops in the egyptian and even the russians. because the russian said mercenaries there who were looking to make money. 3 missionaries come and said, oh, we will protect you. but the real interest is to make money. so it libya is still today, basically a fail state. it's really not a modern government today. many have called libya,

a failed state. i mean you yourself just assigned it that label. can you expand a little bit more on that for us? i think it was basically cuz he did not want a strong state parliament. he didn't want local governors. and actually he was, he was afraid that he would be overthrown if it, if there was people with, with guns and people with authority in the rest of the libya. so he maintained it that way. let me give you an example of one thing that happened. i had a meeting with a private meeting with him, and he said, i have something that will interest you mister cohen. what is that? i've invited the jewish people to come back to you, you know, beef before he came to power, there was a king, the king edris who was living in eastern libya. and when the

palestine thing blew up, when the state of israel was, was established. lot of african countries expelled all the jews and so did libya, the king could ask the king edris expelled libyans, jewish people who are mainly italians. no. libya started ours in italian army. so where did these people go? asked went to italy and. busy handsome went to israel, so could afi. and then of course they took a, took a lot of money out. so could api in a private conversation would be so this will interest you colon, i'm inviting all be in jewish people to come back. said all, that's wonderful. terrific. and he actually did that. he said, he said emissaries to ro, israel, and should please come back. so a maybe a year later i was visiting, i didn't talk to good. actually. i talked to one of his high ranking people. in

fact, is he had an institute call the institute for the green book, you know, like now to tell them how to read book. he had a green book with a lot is sayings and there. so i went to the head of the, as to, to the green book, turned out i had made friends with, i said, well, what happened to deduce come back. so yeah, a lot of a came back and said what happened and said they sold all their property unless they get so. so that was their only interest is listed, make sure they get their money and they want to live. you see? so and it turned out that could, that sees wife, daffy's wife was a, an italian jewess. and and what she was doing is taking daffy's money and sending it to good causes israel. and i'm sure he didn't know anything

about it. but anyway, he had a, he had an interesting encounter, but it's too bad because the jewish people in libya, the italian jewish people, you know, they were doing industry and that sort of thing. so libya lost all of that. the enterprise enterprise, during the spirit that they had brought now on your many decades in public service, you are what's called a career diplomat. can you share with us what you've learned about dealing with foreign leaders? well, to be a successful diplomat, you 1st have to understand who the other guys are. you know, if you, if you get sent to a country, you have to understand who are they were, what motivates them? and where are the different power structures in the country? and as i look back on my career, i think i spent 3 quarters of my time asking questions. always asking questions,

people, local officials, local dignitaries, because i want to know who these people are, what motivates them so that i could recommend policies to washington policy should be. and so it's mainly a question or understanding also you, we have archives about these countries, you know, every embassy, every american embassy sends back reports. this is what's going on this week in the country. so before you even go out, you look at all these reports from previous and from previous diplomats in that country. that gives you knowledge about how things are going. and also you want to make contacts, not just with the government. you want to talk to people in, in the press the want to talk to people in cultural organizations, to example the national association of women. and you want to talk to them. you

want to talk to youth, national association of libyan youth. or, oh my jury and you and that sort of thing. you want to talk to a position political party, so you just don't want to talk to the to the, to the party in town history. so it's a question and getting around and asking questions. so that's the best way to be a diplomat, ambassador herman cohen. thank you so much for sharing all of that insight with us today. interviewing me, appreciate. ah, while there is so much chaos in libya right now. so many loud external voices. let's not forget to listen to the softer speakers, those of the average libyan civilian, who by a large, only wish for peace, stability and sovereignty. that's going to do it for this week's episode at modus

operandi the show that dig deep into foreign policy. i am your host manila chan. thank you for tuning and we'll see you again next week to figure out the aloe ah ah with with

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territory in exchange for indian, the conflict, the gremlins, the white house, and the cia all have rejected this reporting. all of which makes us think the opposite. some of the bind administration want to wrap up this middle school and it's been a 2nd massive earthquake kids to kia and syria. and it felt as far away as israel ah, the devastating quakes are the most powerful the country seen in 84 years leaving over 1000 people dead and more than 5000 injured deadly. also strike the north western regions of neighboring syria claiming the lives of almost 400 and injuring hundreds more.