it's been reported to william burns up and brushed 20 percent of ukrainian territory in exchange for indian, the conflict, the kremlin, the white house, and the ca all had rejected this reporting, all of which makes us be the opposite. some of the binding ministration. want to wrap up if needless intervention. ah, hello, i'm manila chan. you are tuned into modus operandi. this week, we will dive into libya now more than 10 years after the death of mo, mar adolphe, in a divided, libya littered with a patchwork of rebel group vying for power. only one thing is unanimous by international observers. this north african country is a failed state. so just how did a once thriving society go from this to this in just a matter of a decade will discuss with a former us diplomat to africa. all right,

let's get into the m o. the me. thousands of armed rebel major cities in ruins. open slave trade happening on the streets. the rule of law no longer exists in this fractured country, destroyed by nato. bombings in 2011 now began as 3 separate colonies, foreign niga, triple atanya, and physician under the ottoman empire. but today, we know it simply as libya, after world war 2, a sort of guardianship was granted to the u. k. and france. soon after the u. n. g, a granted independence and unification of all those 3 regions. but its independence, however, came at a cost. the agreement that western friendly, keen interests come into power in 1951. now interest allowed the u. s. and new ok

to build military bases in the country and exchange for economic aid. for the americans part they gave about $100000000.00 us dollars to interest, which was a lot of money at that time. especially for a country that was rather impoverished. but it wouldn't be long before libya discovered it wasn't poor at all. as it turns out, libya was sitting on one of the richest oil fields in the world. and certainly the biggest reserves in africa at the time. the year was $959.00. the nasir wells hit liquid black gold back then it was called a mall and delton. but in just 2 short years, libya was an oil exporter. now this after oil exploration had turned out dry since 1915. so let's fast forward 10 years to 969. now there's a saying about jobs and management, right?

that when you finally get to go on vacation, that's when anything that can go wrong will go wrong. and that's exactly what happened to king interests of the kingdom of libya. while interest was on holiday and turkey. but some argue he was actually seeking medical treatment. there a young army officer lead a bloodless who to talk to posing king interests in 1969. that officer was more mark adoptee. now one general gadhafi came to power despite libby a vast oil well, little had been done for the general public in the way of education, health care, and even basic living standards. back then, only about a quarter 1000000 libyans were actually literate of the estimated 4000000 people of the country. the majority of libyans lived well below the un poverty line, and many were dying of terrible diseases. in one generation under gadhafi,

it's rule the nationalizing of the countries. oil industry drove the literacy rate up to 88.4 percent, brought libyan life expectancy up to 74 and a half years and a number of other positive indicators as measured by the u. when development program in 2010, just a year before his ouster and death, they called libya a quote, high development country in the middle east and north africa. so in the early, 2, thousands, libya had the highest g d, p per capita. and life expectancy on the entire african continent and percentage against population actually had similar numbers to poverty in the netherlands. i mean, sounds pretty good, right? especially compared to present day. but let's be clear about something. gadhafi was an all come by yon rainbows and lollipops. he led his country as an authoritarian

leader does with an iron fist that came crashing down on anyone who got out of life, political opposition, free speech, all of that iron fist. now gadhafi had a lot of grand ideas though. chief among them building tight bonds with the arab world and unifying africa even before there was an african union. he wanted a joint, gold based dean, our currency. he put libya in opec, but he also liked the fun rubble groups and what some would say tara campaigns take . for example, the 1988 bombing of the pan am jet over lockerbie, scotland, killing all 259 people on board and 11 more on the ground that you went subsequently imposed sanctions on libya in 1992. they later removed them in 2003 after libby, a formally accepted responsibility for that tragedy. libya had to pay $2300000000.00

us dollars in compensation for their role in international terrorism. but then feeding off the arab spring in neighboring tunisia and egypt in 2011. the discontent found its way into libya. aided by us, led nato. a bombing campaign ensued. in aid of gadhafi is opposition. the 7 month campaign rip the corps of the country apart, displacing some $2000000.00 of its residents, causing death in the thousands. now, multiple factions of rebel groups all claiming authority over territory. by all international accounts, libya is a failed state. for his perspective, we'll talk to a man who actually knew low mark adolphe, he spent decades as a career diplomat, retiring in 1993. as the assistant secretary of state for african affairs,

ambassador herman cohen is now the president of cohen, woods international and advisement group on african and mid east business development. mister ambassador, thank you so much for joining us. first, can you describe for us physically what libya actually looked like in the 40 years under marg adolphe? i mean, what was life like for the average libby in there? well, i think life was pretty good. be there. there was plenty of money coming in from oil and they, they did consume of consumer goods. so i think it was significantly above the poverty level for the average libyan, and there wasn't much involved in politics, could actually just controlled everything. so they weren't asked to, to vote on anything or what have referendum or anything like that. they just, they said keep out of politics could actually said, i'll run everything and,

and he made sure that they had a high standard of living. now historically, how would you describe the u. s. position on libya? well, you know, for many years we had a u. s. air base in libya. and this is what we use. well, we were planning to use in case we needed to intervene in the middle east or in africa. and so that was our highest priority. we and as long as the libyan government didn't bother us, we didn't bother them we, we just operated our air base and did exercise there. how would you characterize the, the us libya relationship for all those years prior to gadhafi is death? well, i wouldn't close friendly actually, it was it was not friendly. after cadaver,

he organized a terrorist attack in berlin. it was a u. s. army social club there and he organized the. busy terrorist attack against the u, the americans and it was americans kill. so at that point, the united states became very hostile and took it to harvey and we, we bombed his, his whole, we sent, we said the us, us air force planes from england to bomb his home. and there was a death, there was a death of kathy's adopted child, and this caused him to be very, very angry at the united states. and from that point, relations were quite bad. now, under brock obama, we saw the fall of gadhafi and ultimately his brutal demise. this came after us lead nato intervention in the country. we know president obama made

references to democracy, dictatorship, violence, and so on. however, at one point on the issue of libya, president obama said, quote, we must always measure our interest against the need for action. so, what exactly is or was the interest in libya? libya we want to make sure that the net, the flow of oil continues libya is a major produce of crude oil. and if that is interrupted and then the international markets are trouble, prices go up. and actually, i would say that that is currently our main interest in libya. and also we want to make sure that sub saharan africa remained stable and libya has a lot of impact on what goes on instruction. for example, in south east libya,

there are major arms deposits, their interest in warehouses. and this is the area code. and currently, terrorists in, in the hill countries, the south countries, molly niger and looking at 5 so terrorist attacking those countries are getting their arms from southern libya in the place called so libya has an impact and what goes on in the rest of africa. and we want libya to be a stable country that's looking to maintain peace and stability and all of that for me, while margaret duffy actually played an outsider role in shaping modern day opec methodology . how would you describe his efforts? i mean, was he, you know,

a guy that was basically trying to unionize these arab oil countries or do you think it was something else? was there something to various, how would you describe it? well, his 1st objective, he was a man for unity and incense that he wanted to have. all countries in the middle east, 3 come part of libya. you might get a large federation of which libya he could actually would be the head of it. so he, he approach syria producer, he wanted to have the syria arab union joined libya and he was rejected. it was rejected. everyone said, no, we don't want to join libya, so that got him very angry at the arabs. i remember him telling me after that, he says, i'm not, i'm not an arab anymore. i'm an african. he says i'm going to, i'm going to unity with the africans. and he proposed to have an african union before there was an african union. it was after african union, which he would,

it would of course be the head. and he because he had a lot of money. it was inviting a lot of african leaders to come visit him. and he had the molly president, molly, the niger ever president of angola, they all came to visit me, very happy to do that. and he kept proposing. let's have him. african ewing is. busy will will become one country, but none, none of them wanted to do that and that was very frustrating for him. and so he, for example, lee, he sent his own troops to northern chad. there is a strip of land and the noises of chad. it has an ear vase, and he sent troops unoccupied, and it was called, it was a strip. and he said, well, now unity with chad. he was using that base to bomb other countries. like he sent

bombers to bomb cartoon in sudan because they refused to join his soon. so he was very aggressive. it was very aggressive and he wanted to be the leader. what would be the leader of war, africa, if he couldn't be the leader of all the countries. he could be the leader of africa . but of course the africans didn't want to join it. and he was very frustrated. can you expand for us on this? libya and his dreams of this big oil monopoly. yes, they will. they had to join. okay. in order to make sure they get the prices that they wanted and that they could influence. oh pick. no. i don't remember. i'm really bows a day. they were exploiting. i think it was about a 1000000 and he could, it could influence the price of oil and he wanted to make sure that the price was maximum because he wanted all that well, that currency. alright,

ambassador cohen has agreed to stick around, unpack more about the situation in libya and will also get his analysis on modern day diplomacy, or i would say lack thereof. we will discuss it when we return with ambassador cohen sit tight. but emma will be right back, i i ah, who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today. russia is the country with

the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that is constantly growing. i think you think of little rooms, the cosigner as we speak on the bill in your senior most the morning the sheila were banding all imports of russian oil and gas. new g. i suffering the price for a guarantee with regard to joe by imposing the sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang with awe.

and welcome back to the m. o. we are again joined by ambassador her men cohen. thank you for staying with us, mister ambassador, as we continue this discussion about libya. so libya has this sort of interesting varied role in the world. it's both part of the arab world. it's also part of the african world, which gadhafi thought to really develop with this whole african union idea, even a gold based currency for the continent similar to the you with the euro. did that dream die with gadhafi? or could we see something like that come to fruition maybe in the future? well, it, it died with godaddy, but it already exist. for example, well, of the french speaking countries that used to be french colonies, they have a common currency called the cfc. and its, its back by the french treasury. so it's a hard currency and they can,

you can use it. she has a to import anything from any place in the world. because if you get, if you pay off and, and see a everybody's happy with that, it's backed by, it's backed by gold. so it's that coming closer coming currency. but having all of africa and common currency that that is never been really discussed except by bike adoption himself. but it's never been realized. could, ah see, i might mention right now that could out. he believes in revolution. he says, i, i support rebel. so the world, and he had a couple of adventures outside of africa, for example, in northern ireland, when the northern island war was going on against the u. k. i forgot when that ended in 10 years ago, he supported gravels in northern island. he supported the catholic rebels in northern island. he said he sent them money, he sent them arms. and secondly,

in the philippines, i believe it was the philippines. there was a rebellion going against the philippine government and the island of min to now. and he sent arms to the rebels. now, who happened to be the moslems? he said, these moslems are being oppressed and now by the philippine government, i'm going to help them. he did, he said money. so he was, he had his concept of revolution is good. revolution is good and honest support revolutionaries all over the world. and he had these 2 adventures, one in northern island, and one in the philippines. now, there are also a lot of external forces at play in libya. the last estimates by the un put around 30000 foreign fighters in the country as of 2021. now beyond the us, there is russia, or is turkey, the addictions, are there the you way eat? why so much for an interest in this country,

what's on the table in libya that all these other nations, including the u. s. wish to exert? i don't know, maybe influence or even control over its future. will you know, libya ever should. daffy's does not have a unified government, it's have really to government. she had one in, in the eastern provinces, syrian acre and united, another government and tripoli in the western provinces. triple atanya. and it was, it was nothing. and in the southern province of them is just sort of local local control. so everyone is worried. the egyptians live the border would, would be they are worried that the instability in libya will spill over into, into egypt. and the turks feel that they have an interest in protecting turkish interests, which is they're buying oil from libya. ready so,

and since there was no real government, it would be the one government in, in, in eastern will be in another government in tripoli. everyone said it, it's basically a failed state. so we want to make sure that the libyan entity remain is stable. and the only way to do that, the only way to do is send troops to the turkish government, send troops in the gyptian, and even the russians, because the russian said mercenaries there who were looking to make money. she mercenaries come and said, oh, we will project you. but the real interest is to make money. so it libya is still today, basically a fail state. it's really not a modern government today. many have called libya a failed state. i mean, you yourself just assigned it that label. can you expand

a little bit more on that for us? i think it was basically could. you did not want a strong state in parliament. he didn't want local governors. and actually he was, he was afraid that he would be overthrown if it, if there was people with, with guns and people with authority in the rest of the libya. so he maintained it that way. let me give you an example of one thing that happened. i had a meeting with a private meeting with him and he said, i have something that will interest you. mr. coleman. what is that? i've invited the jewish people to come back to you know, beef before he came to power. it was a kink. king edris, who was living in eastern libya and when the palestine thing blew up, when the state of israel was, was established,

lot of african countries expelled all the jews. and so did libya, the king could ask the king injurious expel libyans, jewish people who are mainly italians known that libya started out in the italian country. so where did these people go after that? went to italy and handsome went to israel. so could api. and that's good because they took, it took a lot of money out. so could api in a private conversation be so this will interest you is colon, i'm inviting all be in jewish people to come back. should all. that's wonderful. terrific. and he actually did that. he said, he said emissaries to ro, israel, and should please come back. so a maybe a year later, i was visiting, i didn't talk to good. actually. i talked to one of these high ranking people. in fact, is he had an institute call the institute for the green book, you know,

like mounts and tell them how to read book. he had a green book with a lot sayings in there. so i went to the head of the as to, to the green book, turned out i had made friends with him. i said, well, what happened to deduce come back. so yeah, a lot of a king bed. i said what happened and said they sold all their property. let's forget. so that was their only interest is listed, make sure they get their money and they want to live. you see? so and it turned out that could, that sees wife because his wife was a, an italian jewess. and and what she was doing is taking care daffy's money and sending it to good causes in israel. and i'm sure he didn't know anything about it. but anyway, he had a, he had an interesting encounter, but it,

it's too bad because the jewish people in libya, the italian jewish people, you know, they were doing industry and that sort of thing. so libya lost all of that enterprise enterprise during the spirit that they had brought. now on your many decades in public service, you are what's called a career diplomat. can you share with us what you've learned about dealing with foreign leaders? well, is to be a successful diplomat, the 1st that don't understand who the other guys are. you know, if you, if you get sent to a country, you have to understand who are they, what, what motivates them. and where are the different power structures in the country? and as i look back on my career, i think i spent 3 quarters of my time asking questions. always asking questions

of people, local officials, local dignitaries. because i want to know who these people are, what motivates them, so that i could recommend policies to washington policy should be. and so it's mainly a question or understanding also you, we have archives about these countries. know every embassy, every american embassy sends back reports. this is what's going on this week in the country. so before you even go out, you look at all these reports from previous, from previous diplomats in that country. that gives you knowledge about what, how things are going. and also you want to make contacts, not just with the government, you want to talk to people in the press. he want to talk to people in cultural organizations, to example, the national association of women. you want to talk to them,

you want to talk to youth national association of the libyan youth or nigerian, you and that sort of thing. you want to talk to a position political parties. he just don't want to talk to the to the, to the peep party in tallahassee. so it's a question of getting around and asking questions. so that's the best way to be a diplomat ambassador herman cohen. thank you so much for sharing all of that insight with us today. interviewing me appreciate while there is so much chaos in libya right now. so many loud external voices. let's not forget to listen to the softer speakers. those of the average libyan civilian, who by a large, only wish for peace, stability and sovereignty, that's gonna do it for this week's episode. modus operandi the show that digs deep

into foreign policy, i am your host manila chan. thank you for tuning and we'll see you again next week to figure out the elo ah ah, ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a lot to future generations. but our physical museums, places themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world are human touch and st. petersburg. to help refuse the director here and i bet he has met with a lab aisha cloth. it who, what is the best? i mean, one of the i did about them, this is on the vocal with

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