almost a 100 years wanting more details, wedding for you if you want to learn more about this devastating natural disaster. you can do so at r t dot com. we're also across so various audi telegram channels as well, giving updates by the minute. so we always keeping you fully up to date here from moscow one or 2 international thanks for joining us. we'll see you soon with me. hello and welcome to was a part of the last several. they came to the american foreign policy community has become an armored with a carrot and stick approach, seeming to believe that positive and negative reinforcements when applied

methodically can reliably produce outcomes preferred by the self appointed tamer. but given that even donkeys don't respond consistently to these behaviors, training, is it effective against the entire nations? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by john college president of the u. s. q by trade and economic council, mystic of which is great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. you're welcome. now my primary interest in this interview is the american. then more broadly, western sanctions against russian tongue would say indirectly against the in the rest of the world as well. but let's start with the more contained case of the decades long american efforts to economically penalize q by which i'm sure you are familiar through your line of work better well hasn't been effective. the, the challenge with determining effect ness,

with respect to us sanctions toward cuba. commercial, economic and political is defining the term because when they originated, the goal was regime change. and then you get to what is that defined as, does that mean change the people in the regime or change the behavior of the people in the region. and so over the last 60 years, the u. s. has continued to expand the commercial and the economic and the political perspective with respect to changing the behavior. cuba has it, has it worked? the cuban government remains, quote, communist, unquote, on the cuban government has not made the type of changes the united states just wanted to made primarily why? well, they've been able to suffer, and i'll give you

a quote. for us, diplomat in the midnight ninety's said to me during the visit, this was when we had the us interest section that was during the time where official diplomatic relations were suspended. and he said to understand cuba, you have to understand fidel castro saying this to the united states, and he said, fidel castro would say, i'm willing to let my people suffer. are you willing to let my people shot? well, this is actually a good question. i are then mary, can officials willing to love dark people suffer because i've heard the scene in a couple of interviews, that this functions hurt not only in the cuban side, but even more so than american side. so what's been the game for the united states from this policy against cuba, as well as against other countries and by the united states, i mean, the american people, the american try, taxpayers and some highbrow american officials. you know, the, how you define success is basically in 4 year cycles,

the term of the president of united states. and so what you have is continuing every 4 years. you redefine what you're doing to cuba, and then you redefine how you're going to define success for the cuban people. they've suffered mightily during the last 60 years. now, have they suffered solely because of us policies, regulations, and laws. now, they suffered also because of decisions by the cuban government, which inherently minimized their ability to earn foreign exchange. has us policy just waited, the interest of us companies and us individuals toward engage with cuba. it has to some extent, particularly companies because the nature of us sanctions on cuba, which extend to the russian federation in current time and extend to other countries, china and syria, north korea, and venezuela, nicaragua, etc,

is what's called ex territory. and that means that the u. s. government takes the position that when it implements a sanction on cuba, that that sanction is good anywhere in the world. and so any other company that engages with cube, or any government that engages from cuba, they potentially can run afoul of these treasury department's co fact sanctions and the amount of fines are tremendous in russia or frontier. does the goth complex, the american got complex, but you mentioned before and there's nothing funny about it because it's actually calculated in numerous debt like millions of doubts if you actually take the cumulative effect of it. you know, like i once made a story from around about children dying from cancer because they cannot get life saving drugs and 11 with wonder. what do dial lives have to do with, you know,

the actions of that government that they are not even conscious enough to understand. but speaking of that, do you think that the link between economic sanctions, economic limitations and regime change aspiration is it wasn't only about cuba or is it the general feature of the american sanctions regime? it is, you're generally the goal of us sanctions to change the behavior of either an entire government or individuals within a government. and that's why you see us sanctions, whether from the treasury department, the state department, to where the commerce department will be, you know, sometimes they will say we're sanctioning these people and we're not going to let them come to united states, which generally isn't a great deterrent because most of these people don't come to me, i'd states most and don't have bank accounts in the united states. so, you know,

it gets, it becomes more of a political posturing than it does having real teeth and real meaning. if i can circle back one moment to what you said about iran, because it is valid with you. every year the cubans go to the united nations and they introduce a resolution condemning u. s. policy. and generally it, it is approved. overwhelmingly, usually it's united states, israel and one or 2 other countries that vote against the cubans do have a point in terms of when they say that even though us law. so this isn't us regulations, this isn't the president saying, oh guess, go ahead and do it. it's not a policy that can be changed. it's by law from 990 to the human democracy act that says you can export health care products to cuba. but because of the, the order richness, because of the, the challenges in terms of getting a license because of the politics, they're always going to be members of congress and others that are going to

criticize. even though companies connect sport health care products to cuba. a lot of them just don't. now, one of the things i often hear these days from my north western gas, you know, people from asia, from africa is the frustration that they are being drawn into this conflict that russia has with, with the west or that they are being forced to bear the consequences of this conflict in terms of their can all make activity despite our will. and i wonder, do you think the united states should give any saw to that? i mean, does it heard the united states about the other countries, big and small, perhaps not as powerful as, as russia still develop resentment against its policies. because hello, it is one thing to, to have a sunbeam with russia. but it's quite another one because of that,

some african country cannot fulfill its budget or kind of feed its people are absolutely right. in terms of the u. s. is putting countries particularly on the african continent, less in, in southeast asia, in the position of your, with us or you're against us. and, you know, that goes to just a much bigger on fundamental issue that we're having. now, when the united states, you, mr. i mean, if it's just one moment, i think the, the choice is even more stark is to leave or to die. because for some of these people, this isn't not laughing matter for them. providing what for their people is it is a big challenge. so when they are put in that position it's, it's not just about policy, it's literally about human lives. if you are correct, i'm not making making light of that. my point is that for these countries, and i've traveled throughout the african continent and for decades, so i,

i know from what i say, i've seen that they are being put in a difficult position. and then you're right in terms of the commentary by politicians will always be, this isn't against the people and you can't separate the 2. it's in, it is impossible. and so for united states, for the european union, for specifically with respect to what's happening between russia and ukraine, now they are being put in a difficult position. south africa, you know, most recently where you have the foreign minister lever off there. you have a war war games going on, you have south african needing to feed its people, they have all kinds of internal political problems, and then you throw that on to them. oh, by the way, we're now going to make it more difficult and more expensive. you to get food for your people. so yeah, the, the consequences are, are global with respect to trying to change behavior. and you can't separate 2

from harming people and trying to change your government's policy. now, as we know from physics any action produces a reaction and as you noted in one of your articles, the western lab sanctions have spawned a global sanctions resisting industry and it was in place and before the war in the ukraine. but i think after the conflict began, the kinetic kinetic stage of the conflict began the scale and the visibility of a sanction evasion has become far more prominent. do you take that as a, as something situational or do you think it may have a broader structural impact on the global economy? it a broader structural impact. no question. you know, cuba was sort of the, the poster child of the sanctions. and over 60 years,

they have figured out ways to mitigate them, not completely, but they've figured out ways to mitigate them. and then you move forward with venezuela, nicaragua, north korea, and syria, and iran, and the russian federation and china. so over the last decade, but absolutely, during the last year it's gone on steroids because these countries they get together and they basically will say, how do we mitigate primarily what the united states has done. and they've been able to do it and they've develop basically a powerpoint presentation to worry, a book volume of how do you avoid sanctions? how do you get by would sanctioned. and so for the united states, the question is becoming our effective, is it? and unless you have global by in they generally art and we're seeing that with respect to the russian federation and china,

specifically where they've been successfully able to get around and less than the impact is still impact, but less than the impact. and then we get to the bigger, bigger question would sanctions, which is how good are sanctions when those imposing the sanctions are supporting both sides of a conflict? well mr. cumberland, it's a deep ethical question. let's consider it after a short break. they told me i at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people. and to defend the world from gray. with

we will bring to the iraqi food and medicine in supplies and freedom with ah hey, welcome back to was appointment to john kimbell, which president of the us cuba trade and economic council music village. before the break we were talking about various ways of circumventing western sanctions. and i

one that share my own experience here because i think it's the brother counter intuitive. my kid loves coca cola lot and it's not being produced in russia these days. but a couple of weeks ago i was able to go to iran for work matters and surprise, surprise, i was able to bring him a couple of my accounts from there. so what do you think about the russian smuggling, the trademark american drink from iran? isn't it ironic where became that's, that's a great story. i can give you one with cuba. coca cola used to be produced in cuba . and when the cuban revolution happened, they expropriated the coca cola plant, coca cola, stop producing. but over the years, coca cola, mexico has exported coca cola products into cuba. so when you get a cube a libra, coca cola roman in cuba, you're using coca cola that is made in mexico. that is owned by coca cola in

atlanta, georgia. so it, it is amazing how products flow and they generally know what's like water. if you've got a leak in your house water, you would think the water is going to go in one direction, but it doesn't. it goes in all different directions and that's the same with avoiding sanctions. there are always ways to do it because it's a business. people are always going to want to make money from it, and people are always going to want to find the products that they want. now, i know for a fact that the russians are now very deliberate in studying both the iranian and cuban variance of circumventing functions and growing their own domestic industry. instead, i wonder if you think that's also worthwhile for other countries, not necessarily american adversaries. given your understanding of where the goal, local economies having, what do you think is a safe or bad to sort of rely on the global production change or to invest in your

own self sufficiency in this regard, coven, beginning and 2020. change the dynamic with respect to how countries looked at what had been, you know, the big word was out source, you know, during the last 5 years it was, you know, don't do it yourselves, send it to a country that has lower costs, have them do it and then import it back and so that's what everyone was doing. but what had koga, do it disrupted? supply change and so factories were shut down. shipping companies weren't operating . and then when they were shipping prices were going, you know, fivefold in terms of cost. so from 2020, basically 20212022 governments. those are, those are that are under sanction. and those that are not started say wow, we need to now look at in sourcing. so let's try to bring all this production back, just in case there's another pandemic, or with respect to russia, ukraine. there's

a war, there's a conflict, there's a special military or whatever you want to call it, but there's an interruption that becomes global. and for the u. s taiwan is a great example of this because the u. s. is that a protector of taiwan? the consensus is that president, she, during probably next 5 years, is going to absorbed taiwan peacefully by force, by both whatever. but one of the reasons that taiwan is important is because chips computer chips. and so what is the united states been doing last year and this year president biden has

from a business perspective, there are a 145000000 consumers in the russian federation. so no company is going to want to write that off. and even since february 24th of last year, the number of companies that have remained in the russian federation are much higher than people think for various reasons, whether it's, you know, legal or it's positional. but they've remained and, you know, the u. s. government goal with respect to changing the behavior of the russian federation when it comes to ukraine. it's difficult to separate that from the impact of sanctions and with respect to access to the marketplace. because for us companies even today, and this goes sort of circle to what i was saying before about both sides supporting both sides of the sanctions from the united states from european union.

other countries today exempt certain products from sanctions, including products that are transported from china across russia, into the european union. and why is that? because russia's deemed an important source of those products. they don't want market disruption at the same time. those same countries that are importing some of those products from the russian federation are also supporting you credit. so until until those that are supporting both sides make a decision in terms of lessening that support ending that support. we have a, an economic conflict. it's going to continue, but in terms of just the marketplace, you every, every company that i've talked to, you know, they want to return to the russian federation marketplace. now i want to seize upon

something that you said a moment ago. that while trying to change rushes behavior certain countries and not trying to change their own behavior and continue sort of penalizing or russia while also buying products from it while also sending weapons to ukraine. and perhaps also making some profit. from that, i assure that those countries that proclaim that hard support for ukraine actually won a cnn to this war. war is incredibly profitable. and the war between russia and ukraine will continue until it's not profitable. ok, wars become profitable for defense industries. they become profitable for financial institutions. they become profitable for politicians who end up running on world war more tough than the person we're running against. and you get this, this, this battle of testosterone, you know,

who's going to be more muscular. and we've had that in with huberts, you'll hear politicians, we, well, if i'm elected all sanctioned cuba, i'm elected all invade cuba. i'm elected, i'll send nuclear weapons and blow up cuba. if it gets absurd. in the case of the russian federation and ukraine, you do have a you know, a, a conflict that is becoming profitable, or i'm sorry, it has become profitable and more continues. it's going to become more profitable and then it becomes more difficult to stop. now can i, can i ask you about something? because i know that the recently you visited both russia and ukraine, and i appreciate your desire and efforts to actually learn about the situation on the ground that i was struck by your account of a conversation that you had with some of ukrainian young men in key if, during which they ask here,

why don't the russian people take to the social media and tell they put in government, that war is horrible and correct me if i'm wrong. but i think your response was something along the lines that the, you know, the russian understanding of freedom is how a different, blah, blah, blah. and with all my respect to you, i find this extremely condescending, because i don't know a single person in russia who believes that this war is a marvelous option. i think a lot of people believe that this is the horrible option, but the policy of the united states divide and conquer policy of the united states left us with no other choice. and i was wondering whether it would perhaps have been more honest to tell those free ukrainian young people to tell the own government to stop turning the country into a, you know, battering ram against russia to stop, you know, getting all di advised, all the, all their weapons from the united states, or from the west,

and perhaps mind their own interest, because in this case, russia, ukraine can find the mutually respectful and profitable way of coexisting. what do you think about that? well, thanks for your comment. i would suggest that there's a little distance between how you described what i said to to those young people. and i said that there are different government structures and different social structures. and so it's, it's, you can't simply say that why young people are behaving one way and ukraine and not in the russian federation and use the same metrics just measure it. so i said that they were, they were different. it was just a different environment. even though the beliefs may be the same, how they manifest them are different. and that's not a criticism that's just looking at the reality of different structures. you know, you, you, you make

a point and that's valid. absolutely. in terms of how people are looking at the conflict from different perspectives and not just in the russian federation in ukraine, but from outside. and it's very difficult. you know, i have the luxury being able to go in and go out. but there are people who are in, in the russian federation, in the ukraine, who don't have that luxury. so they don't have the ability to, to distance themselves from what they're saying, what they're feeling, the impacts. they have to live it every day. you have to live it every day and it's all about degrees. that's all about your level of impact. but it does impact everyone in different ways and they manifest those beliefs in different ways. like young people, you know, what, i'm sorry for interrupting because we are running out of time quickly. but one of the hopeful messages in your writing was that you looked at the various histories

of antagonism between countries. you mentioned that if we actually look at that, can all make history starting from the world, will one all the way to the vietnam war. there were many examples of former antagonist becoming a comic partner. do you think that's still possible for your brain and russia to not be friends? not be brother, is i think that's something that we no longer hold for, but cor existing in a mutually respectful manner. when we can stop being enemies for one another deliberate, an image for one another? yes. ukraine and russia. shera. i believe it's about a 1300 mile border that you know that something however, you know we're drawing certain hard but you're next to one another. and there is a history with respect to the people, 44, roughly 44000000 people and ukraine,

roughly a 144 or more people in the russian federation. so when this conflict ends and it will end it mustang, and the definition of end is going to be subject to negotiation and semantics than that. but there will be again, commercial relationships. they'll be social relationships, they'll be family relationships. it's going to take some time, but it's natural and there isn't going to be a great wall built between ukraine and the russian federation that we're not going to get chinese architects to come and build a great wall or a little note, have them recon architects to come in then insistent on, but hearing that from an american like yourself as it was, i would say it's very encouraging, but it does produce some coping me mrc as well as we have to live in there. but i really,

really appreciate your time in your candidate. thank you so much for the opportunity . thank you for watching hope to sara young. one was a part ah with ah, ah, ah

ah ah, ah, without help headlines on our t international of the russian defense minister, he says ukraine has lost more than 6000 of his soldiers over the past one month as the u. s. and it's western allies do seek to further prolong the conflict. a more often shocked sitting tokyo through a set of devastating earthquakes rapids parts of the country, destroying many, many homes and living thousands day also on historic visit today or to the russian foreign minister visited count.