more than 1000000 vietnamese people became the victims of american aggressors. ah, with hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle assigned the west ukraine proxy war on russia is not going as planned. a new narrative is making the rounds. it's called the korea solution, the end of active hostilities and an armistice. keep in mind the side considering an armistice seeks to avoid complete defeat. we all know which side that is

cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he is a former cia analyst in tampa. we have larry johnson, he's a managing partner for burg associates and a former cia analyst, and u. s. state department, counter terrorism official and in brussels. we have gilbert doctoral. he's an independent political analyst and author of memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow . during the 1990s, ari gentlemen crossed sack rose. in fact that means you can jump any time you want . and i always appreciate. i want to ask all 3 of you before we go into the, the ma, main part of the program, your reaction to seymour hersh, his article on the united states planning, executing and destroying the north stream pipelines. re you 1st in raleigh. i'm shocked. i'm shocked to go ahead. we john brennan said i was the russians. we barrios said it was the russians. it will kind of hard. it was a stretch to think they would blow up their own pipeline, but i thought it was the russian. now turns about i'm just, i'm just shock peter. i can't sit anymore now. ok,

i very jump in. what can you add to? what ray has already said could maybe there isn't much more to add. go ahead larry . i would, i train once at a very top secret. see, i cite in the united states and believe it or not, they actually had a gift shop and they sold items in there that carry the slogan, admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. and that's exactly what the, the by the administration is doing with sy hersh his revelations. they're admitting nothing they're denying it. and then the q cy, of being an adult old man who gets everything wrong. ignoring the fact that the man is, he's a ledger in the you know, the lives going back to me like ob, grabbed to the revelations about ca, spine on americans and assassination plots the go mar, explore it just goes on and on. so i always gets his figures right,

and i actually sent him yesterday further confirmation. turns out that, that dive center down there in panama city is also the headquarters for a certain 3 letter outfit that ran, i used to work for that there. maritime branches base. there, so the story is true and it is an act of war by the united states and europe as i understand it is completely shut down the story that no, no, well, that's where i wanted to gilbert, you know, it, you know, the europeans are mom on it ok, they've got to blip. ok. you, you know, hershey stuff is, you know, he's a legend. what he has to say people pay attention to with good reason, but it's already fading away very, very quickly. go over your thoughts, go ahead. what i read versus article was best. ready generally. busy quality and remarkable retail. and my question to myself was how, where did he come?

there's no traces obvious reasons. however, i can say this morning i received from her who is the volunteer translate? my 6, my, my techs into german has his own network in his home countries for one of his friends, a friend who told him that he was thinking of making a report. similar to what hersh has done less detailed course with us, with the substantial elements there. and you're going to do this based our conversation. yes. where the german who are part of the same side of the summer and you over listen to one or 2 of the divers explained what you frame for making this public because he had no basis. and he didn't want to disclose the source for obvious reasons for harmony could come to. however,

the overall story fully corroborates one person. so i'm satisfied, i'm source, i'm, i'm satisfied to, and anyone that has any curiosity should be satisfied as well. but of course they will be complete denial and no investigation of this. that's what we expect are now to the main course here. right. i mean, i've seen through some of the mainstream media, so a little bit, some independent stuff, you know, they, they're, the solution is korea, we need an arm and says, we need to freeze the, the battlefield here, considering and is find out that the americans were lying about blowing up the pipeline here. why would the russians even consider and any kind of negotiate negotiable that would include a sci fi or an armistice? your thoughts go ahead? well, they won't, they won't consider that for the nonce. but let me just add a footnote to the seymour hersh story. the real story now will be where this really

can be kept secret in european circles, and particularly in german circles. germany is the k. there stood all our choice. well, president biden threaten to destroy the pipeline and he did like, you know, like bird rabbit. he didn't say nothing. right. so this is a battered wife syndrome. now. yeah. and there are, there are no germans. i think i have have enough information and discernment to say, well, wait a 2nd, now our industries are fall apart. we get real call here at our apartments. if this is true, how are we to look at the u. s? so i'm saying simply that germany will be the key. it will be really interesting where they can act any more courageously the ok but, but you know, right, you know, right. we've always have to deal with the germans are too strong and too

threatening, or they're too feeble. and they're now eve and now we have a new category. they're just plain stupid. ok if they just continue to go along with this. sorry to be so blunt here. larry, i want i want to talk, i want to talk about this korean thing. ok. you what do you think the chances of that happening? because, you know, have history serves me well. i mean, the side that is losing once an army is not the winning side, but go ahead. larry, if the side of the desperation, they're starting to take hold and washington, cuz they realize that they've they, they've made a bet that they can't deliver on the, i'm sure that burns the ca director didn't propose that. and i think that probably put in a lot of for all had to look at each other and go, is this guy on drugs, you know, you can't be serious of russia has finally, i think, awakened to the fact that they can no longer trust anything that washington

or the rest of europe says any deals in the proposals and negotiations are, are not to be trusted. they can't be relied upon at all. so i think russia wisely will reject it, refuse to accept that will press on with this military campaign. and which is ultimately going to lead to the defeat of nato. that's. that's what's at stake here . give her get way in on that. you heard that with larry just said there, i mean, consider we had merkel. now we have this article by seymour hersh, you know, i mean this is, these people are maniacal, i mean, why would anyone entertain any kind of fire or negotiations at this point? i mean, you, the only way you can get your way is creating political facts on the ground with european said that good last year. yeah. this is going to happen on the battlefield wall. yeah. it's going to happen on the battlefield. gilbert go ahead. like introduce something i'm doing on my own. i'm taking it up

from some programs. very respectable to progress on washington in which people who are experts and was sincere pages fighting his position were right now and raised the question. who knows exactly how this new war is war and you cannot see it with absolute certainty. any outcomes under the circumstances. i don't see any such a game in the coming pairs. i don't believe it was. i asked fix it or is on the list. i'd like to like something this your goals proxy, where it is not proxy war between the hours that we have proxy, we're getting the korean war. we have the we can speak of approximate work in

syria. however, there is a significant difference in what we now see in the russian ukraine. and that is, this is a war on russia's territory exactly where by the russian legislature. therefore, it is unlike any proceeding for russia, it is an ex essential fight, whereas a previous proxy, worse, we're not. okay, well, re weigh in on that there because the, the way things stand right now. if there was, let's just entertainment that there was an armistice here. that means that nato would turn the rum state of ukraine into some kind of fortress to continue the conflict. i mean, i know what in their right mind, because they would agree to that because nothing is settled, nothing will be settled. if there is a cease fire, go ahead. re love rush. us 1st and foreign minister of rough shed before 5 months ago. that geography has changed,

the russian calculus tripe, y bars, and other rather long range, missiles, the intention to pacify, occupy, and incorporate bun boss has now widened. now they have to go farther, and now go, father and father. i think that pu chain would prudish prefer to stop other nipper and deal or will say, and they'll be have to be somebody to deal with and somebody that realizes that coaching he go all away is the time to make the deal. it will be 2 months from now in my view, but will be real at o, be up to the, the benighted souls in washington, jake sullivan and blake, and then the others who will have to realize that they're smoking their own hashish, for god's sake, they actually believe they can win when they can. and secretary austin is just doing what he always did. he what he did when he was chief of said come haste,

falsifying the intelligence. it's blatant and it's stupid, but all in fear and love and war. yeah. well, and in and out why, why should the directory of american foreign policy change all of a sudden ok, a road record of, of catastrophe. gentlemen, i'm gonna jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on your current state with archive ah ah, ah . may be able to turn

a blind eye to atrocities in other countries, the united states of america is different wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states, ah, with you little bit about it all to anybody crazy. so the city, if you draw the look at the book they incentives of each cigarette you color revolutions, is one among several means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. western economic interests to popping sadie. i do not see that to that grow by the democrats. yeah. during the training course. so no, we just say low their soft power america. the final goal of these seem revolutions

is to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. today on this, lewis never done before. we trigger the general cape club. that means national government can come into the economy as much as a little frantic. voting and yeah, we didn't come back and i'm not there yet. it to us on to that at all. with my son, he died in the mean at your message. he said that you called me you're to suspend my son. he started on monday, the bad time during this visit. for me, i need to just do this and he, sadly, i mean for the reset. so on, on phone, go out shamefully from lamb national. so they should be a pretty much a sewage to this with waterfall view,

much above it balked and muddled christie, but not because we did find up with them that dawn let you know. ah, welcome back to cross sack where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to him and you were discussing ukraine. ah okay, it's go back to larry in tampa. you know, one of the larry, the, one of the problems i have in looking at reporting on the conflict and, you know, a whole, the whole spectrum of opinions and all that. one of the things it's dismissed all the time. is that why this happened in the 1st place and rushes, the security demand? see, we can talk about a cease fire got arm, it says we can talk about geography and we can talk about all these kinds of things . but at the end of the day,

russia got into is because it's because of its security demands, and it will only stop when it has met those demands. it's, it's pretty simple here. yes, by guilt made an important point with respect to the proxy wars. but what makes this one so different is the utter, complete demon, the zation of all things russian. you know, in the past, during the cold war. now, during the cuban missile crisis during vietnam, the united states could still find a way to talk to yury on the rockwall for to land the garage in it. and there was still, there is no complete rupture of dialogue between the 2 countries are still recognition . we needed to talk, ah, that is gone. that the, the, the, the presentation of russia, as this did demonic authoritarian dictator designed to take over the world. it's psychological projection on the part of the united states. because if you look

at the history of the last 70 years, the only country that has been consistently involved with expeditionary military adventures overseas and killing foreigners is the united states is not russia is not china. and so that's what makes this difference. and this is, this is a, the ultimate existential threat for russia because of the west has its way. it's going to. busy carve up russia and at least 5 pieces and rape its resources. yep. and gilbert, one of them greatest mismatches. and all of this here is that is i've stressed earlier that rushes ultimate goal is to secure it security. but the west, it's messianic. it's ideological. okay. i, i'm glad larry brought this up. i mean, it's a huge, broad brush at russian's russian culture. russian history, the works everything it but it must be annihilated. ok. and that's the mismatch

because the russians are saying it was something completely different. we have security demands. you ignored them, this is what we warn you over and over again. now this is what's happened and we're not going to stop in to we meet our goals, but the west doesn't think in those terms. there's thinking in terms of ideology, go ahead gilbert. well the, the russian issue here where there's this camping had a 2nd dimension to fully with our security. there is a national swish. and that is the russian identity of the non boss in the population . there were 2 ends in this korean style cease fire. what do you have, we could say on the side is that they achieved one of their 2 goals. they said was on bus, they've captured 20 or 25 percent of what was formerly the ukraine and the most.

busy economically valuable part of ukraine, they same space all their co nationals in a way that $990.00 cuz they were unable to save their co nationals in the baltic says simply for low military and economic string, they have that well then they will have it any case, they will have achieved one of the 2 goals. the greater goal is your identified. it is a purely pure security. and that is in terms of halting nato, turning nature back and rendering the job. but gilbert, let me go to re right now, stopping nato halting nato for now. so that's why i said, that's not going to compute. that's not the result. the russians will accept because we all know that if the regime lensky gang stays in power, it will be continued to be supported by the west and the continued nato

infiltration of their armed forces. here, i don't see that's a tenable outcome. re, peter, i think i need to inject the most important tectonic shift that has occurred over the past year. and that is that china is in full support of russia here. that when poetry was ash on october 27th at night, why do you think the americans are taking on china cho? he said, you know, i thought there was some subtle reason behind us, but know, i'm convinced that they're crazy. his word. he said this is an option of arrogance and feeling of impunity. yeah. but that, but that's because of the i agree with you, but it's because it's idea logical for them. ok. i mean that goes into a different realm of, of logic. ok. i mean, this is, this is a messy on the adventure on their part. keep going re, well,

i don't like the word illogical. it's straight power. it's, it's, it's a leach thinking that the us is still exceptional. we haven't learned that lesson yet. what my point is simply the reason poochie can be so secure and so confident and moving west as he is about to do is because he's got china at his back. he solidified that exactly a year ago. people don't get it. least of all, the people running our foreign policy. larry way anyway. rachel said there because the there is a huge shift going on. right now we could talk about d. dollarization. supply chains are changing. the relationship that india has with russia is, is getting better and better. i mean, this is the, the west is closing itself off from the world. ok. and it's last, the last straw. it's military. i mean, if the u. s. was what allows the dollar to be. so compromise, i mean,

that's the death of a superpower, larry the washington in particular. but there as well as the rest of europe, painted themselves into a corner and then tied a plastic bag over their head. and believe that somehow that this is going to result in victory what, what, what the war in ukraine has exposed. and i think frankly, it has surprised russia. they never anticipated that the west was so hollowed out in terms of its ability to replace replenish, military stores. particularly artillery shells and other weapons of a bit there. i think there was an underlying assumption that the west actually had a pretty robust industrial base. yeah. and what's been exposed is that's gone. that is, that's history. this is, this is not world war 2, where the united states factories roared into production. they are struggling to produce it in one year. what, you know,

ukraine is shooting and one week in terms of artillery shells. so there's been a terrible miscalculation. and yet, despite that, nobody is coming to grips with the reality that from a military standpoint, the only thing the united states has left in its quiver are nuclear weapons. and even then the prospect of using those nuclear weapons successfully is, is, is problematic. so it is the united states is getting got to come to grips with the fact that it is not the power that it once was. yeah, big. they just go ahead blame the, to the question of industrial capacity. united states is a function. it's thinking of his notes or whether it's much worse they would enter and the war is now growing up in ukraine has been the course of that war has been

decided by the russians not by the mirror. made it not. and it's precisely the back area where the western industrial capacity is woefully behind because that was not the kind of work that they tend to be fighting with that shows. brilliant. as a 2nd question, the russians have this little bearing on the potential, gretchen risks when one considers where we go. if we, if there's an escalation line, the us nato versus russia. the assumption in our newspapers is that the russians will go. and that is because the whole west underestimate what russia has done in the last decade to build a very powerful conventional exactly system that is extremely important. also, in the case of the hyper sonic missions all the way here about the any,

the existing aircraft systems. there's another dimension to that, which is more important as we go forward and consider the russian to the russian boss about response to an attack on premier named naming. they were down for us spaces in europe and how the assumption years nuclear war. the worship demonstrated the tire of one of their hypersonic missiles on a silo underground. silos, soaring munitions in your brain that be the the fire, how the devastation, power of one of these i percent of missiles is massed with that word because of the laws of physics. nash, hey, i were rapidly run out of time. now you re, you are not in your head what it when you jump in there,

go ahead. i just wanted to support what gill is, shane greek, completely with them. that's the dangerous thing. nuclear aspect. as for the conventional nato generals don't usually agree with gilbert doctor. but just this past week, the top general said, you know, we, we missed, we should explicitly, we may miss under estimated who we got this wrong. it's scale scale scale, and we got it. and the russians do, hello, that's what's going on when in your green. and the only question is, when the u. s. and nato's back is up against the wall wall, biden b. i, mary, we gotta wait, we got 30 seconds. larry is caught, read, or like to say do the military math. 30 seconds, my friend, go ahead. yeah, the, the united states is exhausted militarily. right now. it doesn't have any good

options. and the russian offensive, i believe, is actually already begun. this is not going to come, it's under why it will expand from what it was all we're looking at the defeat of nato and that some to be in the west has not come to grips up yet. okay, well that's a really good way to end the program. thank you. my friend, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in brussels, tampa, and in raleigh. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our tea. see you next time, remember, cross knuckles ah, ah, ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is a lot to future generations. but our physical museums, places themselves

a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world, or from a touch in saint petersburg. how rough he is, the director here, and i bet he has met the jaggers archipelago coma that she goes to san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you get given med div i to the us government to me immediately base and just deported. all of the juggle send people from their country so they call it return back on the island. no. but we are fighting a real fast thing for the right. so i, we do not consider that the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle seems i don't, no self determination. the legal advice we have received is actually political

since we're not and all not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we tend to fall. the tumbler said committee to return back home. there is no us to support from the nomination. i commission average in united, michelle. don't care about checklist and people amanda rahim for them all to noon. had they had little for la cba. let's see you tomorrow. we'll be glad. i used to know how much the mobile duct a month to but i use a was not continuous 19. they forget about the solution. this is, you know, only very shallow understanding of thing. they were there for a very long time channel. there is something the food stamp it is 3113 alpha key is to believe in a few mattie, a candle, stuck in

a call to die. the most 20 even even bases who she did with a journalist, the a channel. i mean from okay it's, it's a very quick work of trying to get them to understand how to distribute flyers without being quote, how to bright graffiti was being quote that are formations the right time limits. there are like random moves. there are lots of these things and then how you can start verbally on that day and where to go. we can eat such available quality editor finance him in committee county g to pretty much the level that he gets with g t o a base in a master in katy got up, but i go to see what he will back to restore. scuff grandmother to force him up again. one of.