prevent us from updating our means and ways of helping the people hard job. and while they last is talking that they allow the money did in a system which is absolutely not true. unfortunately, action they, they were only talks about governments either. they don't see people and syria, and if you compare between b s p one they had that was immediately dispatched to debbie. would they had that plug this back to see i you see that there are no here, minute did and consideration a tone that would do us and come to they only put the political and humanitarian and that's all for now. be sure to check out our t dot com for all of the latest breaking news. and date was the right back here at the top of the hour. ah,

with ah, museums are important for preserving our history so that it is lost to future generations. but our fiscal museums places themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums of the world. huh. touched and st. petersburg to help refuse the director here and i bet he has met ah, ah ah

. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered on peter lavelle as a sign the west ukraine proxy war on russia is not going as planned. a new narrative is making the rounds. it's called the korea solution, the end of act of hostilities and an armistice. keep in mind the side considering an armistice seeks to avoid complete defeat. we all know which side that is pro sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he is a former cia analyst in tampa. we have larry johnson, he's a managing partner for burg associates and a former cia analyst, and us state department counterterrorism official and in brussels. we have gilbert doctorow, he's an independent political analyst and author of memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the 1990 s i. a gentleman cossack rose in fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate,

i want to ask all 3 of you before we go into the, the ma, main part of the program, your reaction to seymour hersh, his article on the united states planning, executing and destroying the north stream pipelines. re you 1st in raleigh. i'm shocked. i'm shocked to go ahead. we john brennan said i was the russians. we but he also was the russians. it'll look kinda hard. it was a stretch to think they would blow up their own pipeline, but i thought it was the russian. now turn it about, i'm just, i'm just shock peter. i can't sit anymore. now. okay, i have very jump in what you and can you add to what la rey is already said, maybe there isn't much more dad. go ahead larry. i trained once to the very top secret cia site in the united states and believe it or not, they actually had a gift shop and they sold items in there that carried the slogan to admit nothing. deny everything, make counter accusations. and that's exactly what the, the,

the biden ministration is doing with. sy hersh is revelations. there admitting nothing they're denying it, and then they accuse psi of being an adult, the old man who gets everything wrong. ignoring the fact that the man is his alleged eat lunch, and yonder you have on the left. going back to me like, i'll go grab to the revelations about cia spine on americans and assassination pro plots the go mar, explore it just goes on and on. so i always gets his figures right, and i actually sent him yesterday further confirmation. it turns out that, that dive center down there in panama city. ah, is also the headquarters for a certain 3 letter outfit. oh, god grant, i used to work for that there. maritime branches base there. so the stories true. and it is an act of war by the united states and the europe as i understand it,

is completely shut down the story to know well that that's where i wanted to go. gilbert, you know, it, you know, the europeans are mom on it. okay. they got a got a blip. okay. you know, i hershey stuff is, you know, he's a legend. what he has to say people pay attention to with good reason, but it's already getting away very, very quickly gilbert, your thoughts go ahead? well, i read verses article. i was the best journals. ready the. busy comedy and remarkable retail. and my question to myself was, how did you get this? where did you come? there's no course you'd be so. traces obvious reasons. however, i can say this morning i received from someone who is the volunteer translator, my checks my my techs into german has his own network in his home countries, for one of his friends, a friend who told him that he was thinking of making

a report. similar to what hersh has done less details. of course there were this is where the substantial elements on there. and you're going to do this based on conversation with a fellow german who took part in the same side of the summer. and you were to listen to one or 2 of the divers who explained what you frame for making this public because he had no basis. and he didn't want to just flow as a source for obvious reasons. so harmony could come to his friends. however, the overall story fully corroborates one person. so i'm satisfied, i'm source, i'm, i'm satisfied to anyone that has any curiosity should be satisfied as well, but of course they will be complete denial and no investigation of this. that's what we expect are now to the main course here. right. i mean,

i've seen through some of the mainstream media, so a little bit, some independent stuff. you know, the, the, the solution is korea. we need an arm and says, we need to freeze the the battlefield here, considering to find out that the americans were lying about blowing up the pipeline here. why would the russians even consider in any kind of negotiation and negotiating that would include a si, fi, or an armistice? your thoughts go ahead? will they won't, they won't consider that for the nonce. but let me just add a footnote to the seymour hersh story. the real story now will be whether this really can be kept secret in european circles, and particularly in german circles. germany is the k. there stood all our choice. well, president biden threatened to destroy the pipeline and he did like, you know, like bird rabbit. he didn't say nothing, right. so this is

a battered wife syndrome. oh yeah. and there are, there are no germans. i think i have have enough information and discernment to say, well, wait a 2nd now our industries are fall apart. we get real call here at our apartments. if this is true, how are we to look at the u. s. so i'm saying simply that germany will be to k. it will be really interesting or they can act any more courageously the ok but, but you know, you know, right. we've always have to deal with. the germans are too strong and too threatening, or they're too feeble. and they're not eve. and now we have a new category, they're just plain stupid. ok if they just continue to go along with this. sorry to be so blunt. you larry, i want, i want to talk, i want to talk about this korean thing. okay. you, what do you think the chances of that happening? because, you know, history serves me well. i mean, the side that is losing once enormous is not the winning side, but go ahead larry out another. it's

a side of the desperation. they're starting to take hold and washington cuz they realize that they've they, they've made a bet that they can't deliver on the, i'm sure that burns the ca director didn't propose that. and i think that probably put in a lot of fraud had to look at each other and go, is this guy on drugs, you know, you can't be serious of russia has finally, i think, awakened to the fact that they can no longer trust anything that washington or the rest of europe says any deals any proposals and negotiations are, are not to be trusted. they can't be relied upon at all. so i think russia wisely will reject it, refused to accept that will press on with the smell of terry campaign. and which is ultimately gonna lead to the defeat of nato. that's what, that's what's at stake here. give her get way in on that you heard that with larry

just said there. i mean, consider we had merkel alon now, we have this article by seymour hersh. you know, i mean, this is, these people are maniacal, i mean, why would anyone entertain any kind of fire or negotiations at this point? i mean, you, the only way you can get your way is creating political facts on the ground with your p and said that good last area. this is going to happen on the battlefield wall. yeah. it's going to happen on the battlefield. gilbert, go ahead. like introduce something i'm doing on my own. i'm taking it up from some programs very respectable or to progress on rushes in which people who are experts was sincere pages. technology, finding his position right now and raised the question. who knows exactly how this new war is war and you can see it with absolute certainty,

any outcomes under the circumstances. i don't see any such a and then again, the coming pairs i don't believe it has to be put on it or is on the list like like something for this. your goals proxy where it is not proxy war between the hours that we have proxy. we're getting the korean war. we have the approximate work in syria. however, there is a significant difference in what we now see in the russian ukraine. and that is, this is a war on russia's territory exactly where by the russian legislature. therefore, it is unlike any proceeding for russia, it is an essential fight. whereas a previous proxy, worse, we're not. okay, well,

re weigh in on that there because the, the, the, the way things stand right now. if there were like, let's just entertainment that there was an armistice here. that means the data would turn the run state of ukraine into some kind of fortress to continue the complex. i mean, no one in their right mind because i would agree to that because nothing is settled, nothing will be settled. if there is a cease fire, go ahead. re loves us 1st and foreign minister of rough shed before 5 months ago. that geography has changed, the russian calculus tripe, y bars, and other rather long range missiles. they, the intention to pacify, occupy, and incorporate done, boss has now widened. now they have to go farther, and now go, father and father. i think that pu chain would prudish to prefer the stopper that

nipper and deal i will say, and they'll be, have this be somebody to deal with and somebody that realizes that coaching he go all away is the time to make the deal. it will be 2 months from now in my view, but will be real and or be up to the, the benighted souls in washington, jake sullivan and blake, and then the others who will have to realize that they're smoking their own hashish . for god's sake, they actually believe they can win when they can. and secretary austin is just doing what he always did. he what he did when he was chief of said come haste, falsifying the intelligence. it's blatant and it's stupid, but all his fear and love and war. how well and in and out why, why should the directory of american foreign policy change all of a sudden ok, a road record of of catastrophe. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state without it

today and hulu, and never done before. we trigger the general came class. that means national government can come into the economy, much a nickel, a cause, a fanatical rented voting off a notice from the fat. i'm not there yet. it to us on to the dog. let them to stand my son. he thought you did the mean at your mercy, the sick at sickle meet your system if any guy didn't want it. but i've had to do jonah, this is a full be ready to just do this. and he, sadly, i mean, for the reset your home phone, go out shamefully, from lamb, my life. really shitty thought i'll likely to give out to stop on

a sunday. probably not pretty much as soon as we still with this will be to oh, i'll walk you through my chima. it blocked a model, received by not because we did run up with dawn last last you know with welcome back to cross sac where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle term and you were discussing ukraine with okay, it's go back to larry in tampa. you know, one of the larry, the, one of the problems i have in looking at reporting on the conflict a whole, the whole spectrum of opinions and all that. one of the things it's us,

missed all the time. is that why this happened in the 1st place and rushes security demand? see, we can talk about a cease fire get harm. it says we can talk about geography and we can talk about all these kinds of things. but at the end of the day, russia got into is because it's because of its security demands and it will only stop when it has met those demands. it's, it's pretty simple here. yeah, by guilt made an important point with respect to the proxy wars. but what makes this one so different is the outer complete demon, the zation of all things russian. you know, in the past, during the cold war, no, during the cuban missile crisis during vietnam, the united states could still find a way to talk to yury on the drop off or to land the garage in it. and there was still, there is no complete rupture of dialogue between the 2 countries are still recognition . we needed to talk about that is gone. that the, the, the,

the presentation of russia, as this did demonic authoritarian dictator, designed to take over the world. it's psychological projection on the part of the united states because if you look at the history of the last 70 years, the only country that has been consistently involved with expeditionary military adventures overseas and killing foreigners is the united states is not russia is not china. and so that's what makes this difference. and this is, this is a, the ultimate existential threat for russia. because of the west has its way, it's going to carve up russia and at least 5 pieces and rape its resources. yep. and gilbert, one of the greatest mismatches in all of this here, is that, as i've stressed earlier, that russia's ultimate goal is to secure it security. but the west,

it's messianic. it's ideological. okay, i, i'm glad larry brought this up. i mean, it's a huge, broad brush russians, russian culture, russian history, the works, everything, but it must be annihilated. ok. and that's the mismatch. because the russians are saying, you know, it's something completely different. we have security demands, you ignored them. this is what we warned you over and over again. now this is what's happened and we're not going to stop in to we meet our goals, but the west doesn't think in those terms. there's thinking in terms of ideology, go ahead gilbert. well, the, the russian issue here was there's this campaign i had a 2nd dimension to fully with our security is a national and that is the rational identity of the non boss in the population. there were 2 ends in this korean style c. fire. what do you have to

say on the side is that they achieve one of their 2 goals. they said was on bus. they've captured 20 or 25 percent of what was formerly the ukraine and the most industrial and valuable part of ukraine. they same space all their co nationals in a way, $990.00 cuz they were unable to save their co nationals in the baltic says simply for low military and economic string, they have that well, then they will have it any case they will have achieved one of the 2 goals, the greater goal is your identified. it is purely as pure security. and that is in terms of halting nato, turning nature back and rendering the job. but gilbert, let me go to re right now stopping nato halting nato for now. so that's,

that's not going to compute, that's not the result. the russians will accept because we all know that if the regime lensky gang stays in power, it will continue to be supported by the width and the continued nato infiltration of their farms of forces. here i don't see that's a tenable outcome. re peter. i think i need to check the most important tectonic shift that has occurred over the past year. and that is that china is in full support of russia here. that when poor june was ash on october 27th at night, why do you think the americans are taking on china cho? he said, you know, i thought there was some subtle reason behind this, but no, i'm convinced that they're crazy. his word. he said this is a function of arrogance and feeling of impunity. yeah. but that, but that's because of the i agree with you,

but it's because it's idea logical for them. ok. i mean that goes into a different realm of, of logic. ok. i mean, this is, this is a messy on the adventure on their part. keep going re, well, i don't like the word illogical. it's straight power. it's, it's, it's a leach thinking that the us are still exceptional. we haven't learned that lesson yet. what my point is simply the recent poochie can be so secure and so confident and moving west as he is about to do is because he's got china at his back. he's solidified that exactly a year ago. people don't get it. least of all, the people running our foreign policy, larry way, in a way. rachel said there because the there is a huge shift going on right now. we could talk about di, dollarization. supply chains are changing. the relationship that india has with

rushes is getting better and better. i mean, this is the, the west is closing itself off from the world. ok, and it's last the last draw. it's military. i mean, if the u. s. was what is allowed the dollars to be. so compromise, i mean, that's the death of a superpower. larry the washington in particular. but there as well as the rest of europe, painted themselves into a corner and then tied a plastic bag over their head. and believe that somehow that this is going to result in victory what, what, what the war in ukraine has exposed. and i think frankly, it has surprised russia that never anticipated that the west was so hollowed out in terms of its ability to replace replenish, military stores. particularly artillery shells and other weapons of a there, i think there was an underlying assumption that the west actually had

a pretty robust industrial base. yeah. and what's been exposed as that's gone, that is, that's history. this is, this is not world war 2, where the united states factories roared into production. they are struggling to produce it in one year. what, you know, ukraine is shooting and one week in terms of artillery shells. so there's been a terrible miscalculation. and yet, despite that, nobody is coming to grips with the reality that from a military standpoint, the only thing the united states has left in its quiver are nuclear weapons. and even then the prospect of using those nuclear weapons successfully is, is, is problematic. so it is the united states is getting got to come to grips with the fact that it is not the power that it once was. yeah, big. they just go ahead blame the industrial question of industrial

capacity is really a function is thinking of his notes or letters, what kind of wars they would enter and the war is now growing up in ukraine has been the course of that war and been decided by the russians not by the nurse made is not true. and it's precisely that area where the western industrial capacity is woefully behind. because that was not the kind of work that they tend to be finding. whether that shows really and sociability. as a question, the russians have this pendulum bearing on potential reading risks when one considers where we go. if we, if there's an escalation line that us nato versus russia, the assumption in our newspapers is that the russians will go. and

that is because the whole west underestimate what russia has done in the last decade to build a very powerful conventional exactly system that is extremely important. also, in the case of the hyper sonic missions, all the we hear about the think any the existing aircraft ever been systems. there's another dimension to that, which is more important as we go forward and consider the russian, can the russian boss about response to an attack on premier named naming that they would tell us faces in europe and how the assumption years nuclear war. the worship demonstrated the tire of one of their hypersonic missiles on a silo underground. silos, soaring munitions in your brain that the, the, the fire cow, the devastation power of one of these i, per sonic missiles,

is vast with warhead, because of the laws of physics. now saying i were a rapidly run out of time, now you are right, re you are nodding your head. what would you want to jump in there? go ahead. i just wanted to support what gill is saying. i grew agree completely with him. that's the dangerous thing. nuclear aspect, as for the conventional nato generals don't usually agree with gilbert carl, but just this past week, the top general said, you know, we, we've missed, we said explicitly, we may say i misunderstood estimated who we've got this wrong. it's scale scale scale. and we got it, and the russians do hello, that's what's going on when in ukraine, and the only question is when the us and nato's back is up against the wall. what will biden being come?

do that i would i agree with mary, we gotta wait. we got 30 seconds larry is as caught, read or like to say do the military math. 30 seconds, my friend. go ahead. yeah, the, the, the united states is exhausted militarily. right now. doesn't have any good options . and the russian offensive, i believe, is actually already begun. this is not going to cobb, it's under why it will expand from what it was all we're looking at the defeat of nato and that some to be in the west has not come to grips with. yeah, okay, well that's a really good way to end the program. thank you. my friend, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in brussels, tampa, and in raleigh. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our tea. see you next time. remember, cross knuckles ah,

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